Do you not think that Christians are sometimes the worst friends because they are so judgmental and harsh with one another? Why is this?

Sam- 4/29/2007 7:51:00 PM

Sad but true, Sam. Someone once said (I believe it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer) "Christians are the only ones who shoot their wounded." I'm going to write an article on this subject this week. I'll post a message here when it's done. I don't suggest I have all the answers, but I'll see what I can do to get to the bottom of this serious problem.

arsindelve- 4/29/2007 8:11:14 PM

Sam - you can find the article by clicking here. I hope you find this helpful. I would love to hear your comments when you've finished reading it.

arsindelve- 4/30/2007 10:13:32 PM

I think it depends what church you go to. I've been to about half a dozen over the years. Some are good, some are bad. I don't think you can say "all Christians are judgmental" because that's being judgmental! Christians are just people, you know, and there's all kinds.

addison-x- 5/1/2007 11:00:10 AM

I read the article, and I think I understand what you're getting at - basically, Christians are judgmental because they don't want to admit that sin is a real problem? Did I get that right?

Sam- 5/8/2007 5:40:00 PM

Yes, that was my point in the article, and I think that is what lies at the heart of the issue. I'm far from an expert on these matters so I invite others to add or edit the article if they have some other ideas about this issue.

arsindelve- 5/10/2007 3:10:15 PM

I got some chrisitian buddies and some non ones you know? I find that the ones who aint christians are sometimes the best ones around cuase they don't go judging me and they except me the way I am. But, I have a couple of christian buddies that are so cool and I hang with them and we attend church together. I think you gotta have both you know? I mean, if they are judging you, I think you should try and ditch them because christian lifestyle is not about judging but more about excepting everyone cause God likes to reconcile people.

Paul Tillsonburg- 7/12/2007 2:09:13 PM

Christians SHOULD be the most loving, wonderful people. However, they often are not. Sad, but true. It is the whole "holier than thou" position people take.

Garreth G.- 7/17/2007 5:41:46 PM

I agree with Garreth.

Pete L.- 7/19/2007 5:02:23 PM

I dont agee. I believe when you're a true christian and by that I mean living the way the word of God tells us.As a Christian youre not suppose to judge others the word of God says judge and ye also will be judged. We all were sinners at one point in our lives thats the whole reason Jesus had to give his life for us. So as a Christian I dont judge anyone because it was once in my life I was lost and God had mercy on me and put someone in my path to Minister and pray for me without judging me. So dont be discouraged by judgemental Christians pray for them because they themselves will also be judged by the only judge Jesus!!!!

GOD'S CHILD- 1/4/2008 12:50:30 AM

God's Child - welcome to the site, it's great to have you here. Everything you wrote is totally correct. I think the original complaint from Sam was that people who claim to love Jesus yet fail to live according to his teaching can often be worse (and much more judgmental) than people who don't even claim to follow Jesus. Sometimes non-Christian see that behavior and are totally turned off to Jesus' message. That's too bad. It just means we all have to do a better job of demonstrating what real love comes from truly living the way Jesus intended. That is because, as you said, that when someone actually lives righteously according to God's plan, we will not judge anyone, and will leave that to Him.

Thanks again for your comments, and welcome.

arsindelve- 1/4/2008 8:02:11 AM

Christian to Non-Christian:
Personally, I think that Christians are being too lenient with their values. In an effort to be "PC," we sometimes lower our standards in an effort to not be judgemental. It is true that it is only up to God to judge, but how can we not say that promiscuity or (ooh flame on!) homosexuality is wrong? We know what is right and what is wrong by what is written by God's hand in the Bible.

Christian to Christian:
As a Christian, I would like to hear when I am doing something wrong. If no one tells me (aka judges my actions) then how am I supposed to stop doing it or know that it is wrong? Maybe the problem also lies with the Christians being judged (by not being open to criticism) and not the Christians that judge? Of course there is a right way to go about it:

Ephesians 4:14-15
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

XFrogger- 1/7/2008 3:58:24 PM

XFrogger,

I have no problem with judging actions. I, too, am getting really tired of the PC stuff. When someone is breaking God's law, then we call a spade a spade.

What I am getting tired of is the vitriol that Christians seem to have for people who commit certain sins. I wrote a reflection a while back, and the message was, "yes, homosexuality is wrong, but why are Christians so angry about it? Why are we not loving the sinner and praying for them, encouraging them to turn their life around?" And you know what response I have been getting? "GAYS ARE GOING TO HELL"....and so I know I have no gotten through to that person at all. It's very, very discouraging.

And so, it's not really about PC, or even about judging sins. It's about our reaction to the sinner - treating them like lepers or worse and not beloved brothers and sisters - that has really upset me. Many, many Christians are guilty of this, and it makes me so sad. If you only saw the nasty, hateful responses that I delete before they ever get posted....where is the love for the sinner as we teach them and guide them out of sin?

arsindelve- 1/7/2008 4:14:31 PM

I think we are looked at very carefully becuse of the standard we are supposed to maintain. Some Christians come across as being "Holier than Thou" because they have not read their Bible properly. They mean well, but they are immature Christians. If a Christian is going by the teachings of Christ and by the Apostle Paul later on, he/she will know that they are supposed to live by Christ's example. If it were not for Christ's death and resurrection and our exception of it, we would be no different than anyone else. We are saved, not perfect.
And we should love the sinner and hate the sin. Bring the sinner to Christ and let HIM do the changing. That is HIS job, not ours.

Kim (trying and sometimes failing to practice what I just preached!)

solagratia- 1/10/2008 8:51:03 PM

Arsin-I think we are thinking on the same page but on different sides of the spectrum. I totally agree that many many Christians go about trying to convert people in the wrong ways. However, at the same time, how are they (in this example homosexuals) supposed to repent from their sin when all they need to do is find a misguided-church of God that they are accepted at? And by accepted I mean that the church teaches that it is ok to be homosexual. It is, however a fine line between intolerating sin and Bible Bashing with fire and brimstone. We need to be loving yet strict with our principles at the same time (much like good parents).

I don't want to be argumentative, but even Jesus got mad and flipped a few tables over in the temple when he saw that people were disgracing his father's house (Matt 21:12). Anger for the right reasons is noble; hate and spite for our fellow man is unacceptable.

XFrogger- 1/12/2008 2:39:12 PM

I never thought about this issue in terms of a spectrum, but yes, of course if we go too far in the other direction, there are all kinds of problems with that too, and I am no fan of how liberal many mainstream churches are getting.

I think the reason I have so much pent up frustration with the fire-and-brimstone side of that spectrum is that they are the ones I have been hearing from lately. They have been riding us at DCMI pretty hard, as if our compassion is some kind of weakness. I try so hard to walk that fine line you're talking about. I have written articles and reflections which state, in very clear terms, that homosexuality is wrong and that the behavior has to change, with no exceptions. I also said that our role is to pray for, support and encourage homosexuals while they make that change, not shun them and verbally attack them. So, in other words, what I thought was a pretty good, biblically based center line.

I never once heard from the "liberal" side, screaming at me that I was homophobic or wrong to denounce homosexuality. Instead, I heard all kinds of negative (and often nasty) comments from the "conservative" side, screaming about how homosexuality was wrong (as if I had not written the very same thing). So, because of the responses I got, I suppose I am a little sensitive about that right now. If I had heard nasty comments from the "liberal" side (and that was what I had most expected), I suppose I would be feeling a little raw in that direction as well. Maybe I need a thicker skin!

Thanks for your comments. It's been very encouraging discussing these issues with someone rational, sensible and grounded.

arsindelve- 1/12/2008 4:42:03 PM

I wish there was some organized effort to overhaul the ugly perception so many have of Christians and Christianity. We are all weary of our detractors framing Christians as being so hate-filled that there could not possibly be any room for the characteristics by which Christ intended for us to be known. Imagine a public relations campaign that strived to win the hearts and minds of the public by spotlighting God's love in television commercials, billboards and print media telling the world God loves you, so we love you too. I guess that until some Christian group with deep pockets connects with Madison Avenue to create this image make-over, it is up to each of us individually to be our own billboard of God's love. That can be tuff to do at times, but honestly discussing how to deal with sensitive issues like homosexuality is bound to help us refine our approach. I remember way back when I was a naive college student and told a group of students I didnt even know anyone who was gay. The response I got after making that comment made me start wondering if I knew anyone who was not gay. The old adage of there but for the grace of God go I hit me immediately and rather hard. Actually knowing real faces to put with the iniquitous label helped me realize as sinners we are all not that much different. I dont know whether people are born gay, but if not, anyone of us could have encountered life circumstances that could have led us in that direction. Not every gay person would say they have a sad life story to tell, but throughout the years I have met so many who tell very painful yet familiar stories. When you hear people talk about sufferings like sexual abuse, emotional rejection or familial discord as events that may have shaped some of the choices they've made, you can understand their plight. If any of those sufferings were not a part of your life experiences you can be thankful; if they are familiar to you, be thankful they did not open you to the struggle of homosexuality - either way there but for the grace of God go you. If you enjoy God's sense of humor you can imagine amusing ways God could choose to take the hate out of these gay bashers. Better the humor of God than His wrath for bringing scorn to His name.

Ryan- 1/12/2008 8:09:50 PM

Funny you mention the ways God use to take the hate, or at least level of discomfort on my part, out of people toward gay people. I have been bombarded with homosexual people in my life because, God knew that I was afraid of them, did not want to minister to them, and did not think they could be saved. This was a long time ago. I am still not sure if someone living in the lifestyle of homosexuality is saved (I tend to believe they are)...but I would like to believe that if they have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, then God is working on them and their "pet" sin (as I call a sin that is ongoing.), and therefore they are saved. We come to Christ AS WE ARE, then He changes us. Some more quickly than others. I mean, Jesus did die for ALL those sins (even though it is not license to sin), and we still have the ability to be deceived. Oh, and I LOVE the phrase "but by the GRACE of God..." That is how I say it.

Kim

solagratia- 1/13/2008 10:52:02 AM

You wondered if someone living the gay lifestyle is saved. I am wondering if any saved person is living a lifestyle completely free from committing any sin. I confess to being an immature Christian and knowing next to nothing on any topic. However, who is saved strikes me as a question only Jesus can answer, and I'd feel uncomfortable making an assumption. I also confess that I'm surprised I dared to post a comment on this site and didn't think it through well, prior to doing so last night. My last confession is that at least on one occasion I could have rightly been labeled a gay basher, and probably have said extremely hurtful things about any demographic you can name at some point in my life. However, it is convenient for me to be deluded into thinking I am not guilty of the sin of hate. If you want to link all this hatefulness back to the Big 10, it would fall under the category of murder. It's funny how we look at sin in human terms. We are likely to think murder to be a more egregious sin than adultery (homosexuality in the context of the 10 commandments?). Yet a lot of us are so uncomfortable dealing with people who have committed the sin of homosexuality that we tend to view them as worse offenders (or more abhorrent) than any other type of sinner. Which is the worse sin - adultery or murder? Both require the same penalty and atoning sacrifice. It is amusing how much the unrepentant haters have in common with unrepentant homosexuals (beside the whole theory of gay bashers being latent homosexuals and the idea that a lot of homosexuals harbor self-hatred). Both groups need God's love, and we are more likely to convince them of their wrongs by demonstrating love (rather than vitriol) toward them. I think we need to strategize on how to more effectively promote the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin, so that we can demonstrate to the world the greatness of a God who loves each person equally and desires that they turn to Him, repent and be saved.

Ryan- 1/13/2008 6:44:14 PM

I think this helps me with my thoughts on whether homosexuals are saved. I found this is the Bible...this illustrates who gets saved and how it happens. Please note verses 27 and 28.

Romans 3:21-28:
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of Gods glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

I also want to point out that Paul also says that this is not license to sin. It means that we will sin, but we who ARE saved will desire not to sin because of the Holy Spirit in us and because of our desire (not obligation by the Law) to please God.

Oh, and I believe we all have out own "pet sin" which we have a hard time quitting. In the Bible, as well, it says that now, all sins are the same in the eyes are God. If you are not saved, adultery will send you to Hell as fast as murder. I believe the difference is how these sins affect people here in the world. They all affect God the same way...a sin is a sin to Him (I am not trying to downplay sin at all, by the way). But each sin has its own earthly consequence (as opposed to eternal consequence.) I hope I am not confusing anyone. What I mean is, if you kill someone, I believe you can actually accept Christ and get saved, but you are still going to the electric chair. You are just going to meet Christ a lot faster that someone who is saved and lives a long life without committing murder in a place that practices the death penalty!

By the way, I have a wonderful friend who LOVES Christ and is to me obviously a saved Christian...who is also gay.

As for judging, I have been reading a litle about that subject in the Bible about it and I think there is a difference between being a Judge as God is and judging people by TESTING the spirits:

1 John 4:1-6
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Anyway, I hope I have not angered or alienated anyone. I think Paul summed things up here in Romans 13:9-10:
9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love in Christ,
Kim

solagratia- 1/14/2008 10:57:39 AM

Ryan and Kim,

I want to let you both know how grateful I am for your contributions to this discussion. These are the kinds of debates we really need to have if we are going to grow, reach out, change perceptions and by extension, change lives. You've both done such a good job of elaborating on these issues, that I have really just been content to sit back and be impressed. Thanks so much!

arsindelve- 1/14/2008 8:39:25 PM

I hate to be pessimistic, but realistically, I wonder how much longer it will be before the extremists come out of the woodwork and start to tell us how wrong Ryan and Kim are, and that anyone who is gay could never be saved and is going to hell. For those people, let me be proactive and make it as clear as I can: "no one is saying that homosexuality is acceptable! We are saying that you treat it like any other sin" Ok? Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all sin.

Like I said, I don't want to be pessimistic but we've seen it time and time again. Arsin Delve shared some of the responses he got from his reflection, and they would make you weep. These people tend to be so much more vocal than the Kims and Ryans, and this is the message that non-Christians are getting from them: "you can be a Christian as long as you are perfect. If you have anything wrong with you, don't apply." Well, who the heck would want to have anything to do with Christianity? Sadly, we are Christ's ambassadors. We can try to separate it, and say that people will seek Jesus despite us, but we are the "face" of Christianity. If we turn people off, they will be turned off, period. Ryan is right on the money - we need a marketing makeover. There is a ministry calling in that, I know it!

God bless you, Ryan, Kim, XFrogger and the others. You've been intelligent and eloquent, and I hope you change some hearts (or that the Spirit changes hearts through your words)

tom- 1/14/2008 8:54:38 PM

Thanks for the encouragement Tom!
Recently a wise and famous teacher said to me,

I wonder what would make Christ happier - a man who is passionate in his love but does not put that into action, or a man who is quiet and reserved in his love, but earnestly serves God with his entire being?

I was hoping to take action on that admonition, and was serious about wanting to collectively plot strategies to more effectively promote the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin.
Is anyone up for the challenge/is this worthy of a new discssion topic?

Ryan- 1/15/2008 12:02:25 PM

Count me in! That has been my person slogan for a long time now. Along with, bring them to Christ and let Him do the rest. ;) That is why I brough those Bible verses with mein m lastpost. I cannot just go verse by verse. I have to go in context. I also believe that when the Bible is written, you have to read it and understand the audience it is written to in each instance (like in each church Paul was talking to, like regarding women in leadership roles, etc.). And don't for get the Law verses Grace. Wow! But we must becareful not to EXCUSE such behavior. We have to tell people, "Look, we are not condoning what you do. We LOVE you. Jesus LOVES you. He cares so much about you that he died for you. We all sin. I sin, you sin and that is why He died. If any of us were perfect, we would not be having this conversation."
So yes, count me in.

Kim

solagratia- 1/15/2008 12:32:31 PM

Excellent idea, Ryan. I'd be glad to participate!

I think this current discussion has done a great job of looking at the theory and the underlying concepts, but I imagine Ryan's topic would be more pragmatic -- more of a "how-to"...I think it would be a tremendous resource. I look forward to it.

arsindelve- 1/15/2008 12:50:52 PM

I've heard it said: "One of the biggest stumbling blocks for unbelievers are Christians." It's extremely sad but true. Unbelievers see us failing to live like Jesus lived and label all of us as hypocrites. I'd be very interested in finding a way to change people's perceptions of us as Christians. Start it up, I'm in!

XFrogger- 1/15/2008 3:40:36 PM

It is wonderful to encounter some passionate people who want to jump in and work. A day or two ago, I may have been eager to start something, with grand illusions, but with little preparation and knoweldge - which is my usual style.
Now I am wondering - if we want to create something of value to a wider commnity beyond us, perhaps we should consider a more grounded approach.
I propose we set a date to begin - say February 1 -and use the remaining days to pray for guidance and real results. Perhaps we could re-read the Devotional titled Listening to God, or anything else ArsinDelve, or others may suggest.
I don't want to be a drag on anyone's enthusiasm, so it is fine with me if others are ready to roll at any time.
Any thoughts?

Ryan- 1/16/2008 8:22:18 AM

Although the discussions are indexed by Google and are searchable, I don't suppose that too many people wander into to this part of the site when they are looking for resources. I think they come here to talk. However, as I have been reading what has been written in this forum the last few days, I have been thinking, "this could easily evolve into a wonderful and inspirational article, reflection or devotional." I would love to see that happen. I want the site to have much more member-submitted content than it currently has.

Perhaps you can see these discussions as the sounding board or the brainstorming session for something bigger and better. We don't need to be too concerned about getting it exactly right straight out of the gate. What we need is to encourage each other with new ideas, new directions and new ways of thinking. With any luck (and a great deal of guiding from the Holy Spirit) I think we can end up with something which, once condensed and edited, could stand to serve as one of the most important resources on the site, created collaboratively and representing the best our members have to offer.

So, my vote would be to get started on a brand new discussion and see where the Spirit guides us, then make something to stand the test of time from the result.

arsindelve- 1/16/2008 8:38:57 AM

Ryan's new topic is now available, it's called "Love The Sinner Hate The Sin." I hope everyone from this topic will join us in this new discussion. I know some great, practical advice and new insight is going to be shared by all. Thanks, Ryan!

marklang- 1/28/2008 6:57:31 AM

well i think that judging someones lifestyle is GOds job , our job is to love them and help lead and guide them to the cross and that dont mean preach at them either.. I am pretty sure a gay person has heard it all about what God thinks about how he or she is living why not try to just reach out and love them and surprise them by not judging them and when they ask you " arent you goin to tell me how wrong i am" tell them " nope , iam here to love you " Telling you that your wrong well it sounds to me like you have had a lifetime of people telling you that and it has gotten you no where right" some of us need to step out on faith and just LOVE them be there for them we all know that they will have their humbling point in their life and are going to need spiritual support so why not just start loving them now.. show Christs love..

carrie_wilson- 1/29/2008 8:37:43 AM

Hi Carrie - I agree with your comments and I 'm glad you helped return my thoughts to the subject. Perhaps you would like to join the conversation just getting started under the discussion topic Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin. I am sure your participation would be appreciated there as well.

Ryan- 1/29/2008 4:12:50 PM

Excuse me, could someone explain "PC" to me. Please tell me it's not pseudo Christians. Thank you.

mrspiggy- 2/1/2008 1:33:51 PM

PC = "Politically Correct". I won't speak for anyone else, but personally when I use this term, I use it to mean people who are more concerned with the appearance of correctness than actual correctness - making sure they use the "right" terms and phases in order not to offend anyone, often at the expense of saying what really needs to be said - too scared to appear intolerant, and thereby accepting things that should not be tolerated...etc.

arsindelve- 2/1/2008 1:52:25 PM

Thank you, Arsin. God knows I love this website. It gives me the opportunity to work out my salvation (Phillipians 2:11-13) I don't know what politically correct is and really don't care. I try to let my life reflect the words that come out of my mouth. That, in itself, consumes 16 of my hours every day(I sleep 8). I don't have an opinion on homosexuality as I am not a homosexual. I do have an opinion on how Christians should treat other people, though. We are to love other people as we ourselves are loved.
My motto is: Love and a nice buble bath will solve most of the world's problems.
My favorite answer to questions about things I know nothing or little about is from John 21:22, "...what is it to you? You must follow me." These are the words Jesus spoke to Peter when Peter questioned Him about John. I strive to follow Jesus and let Him deal with the souls of others. I believe that in following Christ, we are to pray, encourage and exhalt not judge or condemn others. Be they Christians or not.

And may I add for those who say we are not perfect, strive for it. (Matt. 5:43-48) God never tells us to do something that cannot be done.

There, that's about a dime worth of my thoughts on this subject. I know you feel like you have change coming from the dime.

mrspiggy- 2/1/2008 2:50:50 PM

Oh my goodness, I laughed out loud, you have just made my day...I love your attitude! And, I think I may have to put John 21:22 in my list of top ten verses. I've never stopped to think about how deep that verse really is. Thanks for helping me see it in a new light.

I feel my calling, and the calling of this ministry is apologetics, and therefore I need to have a ready answer for anyone who has questions. But, in my own walk with the Lord, it would be such a relief to "just follow Him." I anxiously wait for the day I relax and just do that.

arsindelve- 2/1/2008 3:00:22 PM

It is true that we are required to have answers for those who don't yet recogni