God is love. God hates sin. These two qualities of God are juxtaposed in scripture and invite examination. Is it intrinsic that as we gain awareness of God's primary love, the opposite action of being able to identify what offends God, should also be expandinding? Christian growth includes learning how to love and what to hate. If we get the how to love right, chances are we may go unnoticed, but to get it wrong may likely draw scorn to the name of God. If we don't know what to hate, we're not pleasing God. As we publicly identify what we hate, we face fire from popular culture while it ridicules and distorts Christianity. It's obvious we've made a complete mess of how to hate.

We want to be doing the Father's work, but often falter and supply the abundant fodder by which Christianity is mocked. Awhile ago, we were discussing a desire to strategize on how we could better refine our understanding and practice of the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin. A few people expressed interest in the topic; is anyone ready to comment?

In terms of popular culture, we get little fanfare for the monumental works of charity being done in Christ's name throughout the world. That's fine; they should be offered in humility and self-sacrifice. These acts of love don't fit the action line promoted by media and culture. Instead there is unending, salacious interest in the exposed hypocrite who professes to be a Christian. Also, the image of the self-righteous Christian who hates everyone - including other, slightly differing Christians - is still fun to satirize even though there has been a tiresome procession of these folks. Thanks to modern media, one poor example can appear to be more powerful than entire ministries or movements. Popular culture will absolutely promote depictions of Christian failure; this is the story that furthers its agenda.

No doubt, the large-scale displays of collective Christian love, such as hospitals, schools, and monetary aid to the needy have swayed many non-believers. However, in my little world, my supposition is individual Christians may be having a deeper impact on individuals from the pre-saved crowd. If there is any validity in that idea, should we just be content to allow that to take place while we stand in silence as our culture tramples over the sacrifice and name of Christ?

We want to be part of a group known by its fruit of love (as well as all those other fruits related to love). Most of us are angered that our society is being indoctrinated with a warped view of Christianity. We are also embarrassed by, and frustrated with Christians who appear to lead with hate rather than love. This faction gives rise to the theme trumpeted by our detractors - God is about needless restriction and unjust punishment - (rather than fun and freedom through obedience).

Hopefully, we all share an appreciation for God's love toward us sinners as well as His hate for what hurts us. How can we convey this to a needy world? My questions dominate over any plausible answers, so I would enjoy a synergistic discussion of the topic. I believe every big problem points to a bigger positive potential. Some time spent considering the matter may bring the Spirit's enlightenment to our path.

1/27/2008 9:31:34 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hi Carrie - I hope you make your way over to this conversation, because your comments posted under the discussion topic Christians being the Worst were very close to what I was thinking about the other day. I'm glad you shared your opinion because it helped shape mine!

I'm worried about the harm Christians may inflict on each other in the U.S., as the nation selects nominees to represent our political parties in the race for president. I'm not trying to make any political points; what concerns me is a scenario taking place in our primary process, but plays out on other stages as well - in fact Christians have even waged wars against Christians over the same debate.

We have one political party which has three viable candidates who face particularly tough scrutiny from various Christian factions. Even Christian leaders are making troubling comments about these candidates. Some have branded one candidate as being too liberal of a Christian. One candidate has been denounced as not being a real Christian. A third is portrayed as having sinned too much to be forgiven enough to be president. Probably the majority of Christians are not making any disparaging remarks about any individual Christian or any denomination; but the vocal few have frenzied the media sharks. Soon there will be blood in the water; whose blood?

Related to the topic of Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin; I'm having difficulty sorting out the distinction between the need for Christian unity and the need to identify error. I hope we can all be true Christians, even though there is such diversity in beliefs. God wants us to be unified and God wants strict obedience, right? I marvel at those who can pinpoint God and are so steadfast and concrete in their beliefs. I think there are also those who may faintly glimpse God, but in so doing sense a vastness beyond imagination. Those Christians who can blend both traits may contemplate the idea which encompasses not only the need for those other denominations to mend the errors in their doctrines, but additionally includes the notion that we all have a huge distance to travel in learning how to please God. There are so many greatly-differing groups all claiming to be Christians; no wonder we confuse the heaven out of non-believers. The combat between us gives our adversaries infinite reason to jeer us.

Imagine if all those who say they are Christians across the world, shared the same bedtime, and closed each day with a prayer. Some of us may be tempted to think my prayer must be sweeter than the prayer of the heretic next door, because I've got the right dogma. Oh, no, then your sweet stuff gets quashed by your pride. However, after all the clutter and in-fighting is filtered out, I think most people's prayers may sound remarkably similar, regardless of denomination or experience. I am sure it would sound something like: Father, please put your love in my heart. Teach me to worship you in holiness and truth. Please reveal your will and help me yield to your every desire. If we could hear this prayer raised in unison, could we trust God to rain down the unique correction and blessings we each need as individuals?

I'm thinking that a good start in demonstrating love to the world is to stop disputing who is a real Christian who is really saved - based on denominational affiliation, past sins and current situation. Have you ever noticed that most of the folks in the much-maligned groups (even cults) desperately want to worship God to the best of their understanding? I'm not suggesting that we should be content to allow sin or error to flourish, however, isn't discord a sin and an error too? Perhaps there may be room to question a group as a whole, if done with love, but questioning the authenticity of an individual may be dicey.

My assertion is we should not judge the salvation of anyone who professes to be a Christian regardless of their situation. As Carrie said, that is God's job. If someone knows enough to articulate the belief that he or she is saved, I think we are likely to commit a grievous offense to question that expression. Can we allow God to grant salvation without the necessity of our confirmation? Perhaps this subject has already been covered elsewhere, but it seems like many of us are still struggling with the issue.

Or, am I missing something?

1/31/2008 8:02:35 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

It is truly sad to see Christians beating up on their fellow Christians. We have enough trials and tribulations as it is. Just before I found this site, I was posting on another site in which all of the mods pretty much attacked me for saying the baptism isn't necessary for salvation. They were condescending and brutal in their attack and before I left, I told them how much harm they were doing to every Christian that entered their site.

However, I'm fairly sure that discord is not a sin. We still need to honestly proclaim what Christianity is all about (perhaps even at the cost of turning some off to Christianity?). We live in a dark dark world in which many are frightened/terrified of the light. But we still must be lights in the darkness.

I think we have to privately confront our Christian friends about their shortcomings and be open for the same to be done to us. In the public eye, we need not hold back any punches...all the while speaking the truth in love.

What you think?

1/31/2008 11:48:20 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

God hates divorce and violence (Malachi 2:16). God hates idol worship (Deut. 16:22).

Please beware that idols are at times our own intellect. And violence can be spiritual to the effcet of us beating up on other Christians with our words. "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you." Ephesians 4:31-32
"Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins." I Peter 4:8

"Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. I Peter 3:8-9
And, "A new comandment I give you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13:34-35

So it is written, so shall it be done.

2/1/2008 12:37:37 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

X-Frogger, - I think we agree on everything, except maybe the definition of discord. I like what you said about speaking the truth in love - to me, that is not discord. I can see it often results in discord, if one or both of the parties fall short in the love department.

I think the verses offered by Mrs. Piggy support the importance of our need to learn how to speak the truth in love. Could every mention of someone's flawed practice be prefaced with a statement regarding how he is respected as a beloved brother?

So, if you believe someone is steeped in error and he won't consider your efforts of loving correction - yet he professes to be a Christian - do we accept that expression of faith without any question? Or is it permissible to ever say that person, or that group, is really not saved as evidenced by the existence of any particular problem in their lives? I think I understand the importance of a repentant attitude in accepting Jesus as your Savior, but don't we also spend the rest of our lives repenting?

And Mrs. Piggy - I have no doubt that so it is written, so shall it be done rings true in your life, but do you think that Christianity in general has done all we should to reflect God's love to the world?

I think that despite many positive examples, we are not well known for our love. What do you say?

2/2/2008 9:01:11 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

It is sad to say that we, as a Christian community have fallen short in the love department. We are often busy trying to remove the splinter from our brother's eye with the plank in our own. It is my belief that if each of us first remove our plank, we would be able to see our brothers more clearly. Also, I believe our focus is wrong. Why look for the splinter anyway?
Perhaps I have the "Pollyanna" complex. Look for the good in others. Did Paul not say, "Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on these things."? (Phillipians 4:8)
Let us, therefore, concentrate on the good in people. Let us exhort each other for that good and let the Counselor deal with the other. The Holy Spirit will lead each of us into all truths about ourselves. And even then, if your heart condemns you, God is greater than your heart. We forget, it is He who makes us righteous, not we ourselves. Nor can we make our brothers righteous. We must each work out our own salvation.

As I understand it, there are only two commandments. Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Loving God covers the first 4 commandments given to Moses. And loving your neighbor covers the other 6. So, Love is the answer to all life's questions.
Therefore, let us practice love until we perfect it. The Word says, "Perfect love casts out all fear." I believe it is fear (satan's best weapon) that causes us to not look at that plank in our eyes. So, we concentrate on our brother's splinter.

Also, Romans 14:1 " Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters." might be taken into consideration at this point.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question or not. But, as is my way, I go to the "instruction book" on matters. Instead of asking myself, "What would Jesus do?", I ask, "What does the Word say?"

2/4/2008 10:09:04 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs Piggy-

You have a very different (but absolutely valid) perspective on this issue.

I think it boils down to what we have control over. We can not change what people choose to see when they look at Christians. There is evidence of a loving God from people that live according to the Word and there are always going to be people who misunderstand and misrepresent the way Christians are. Perhaps the most we can be asked of is to live our lives as the best Christians we can be.

However, what happens when there are planks in our and our brother's eyes? Are we supposed to simply take out our own plank and leave our brother to deal with his own?

2/4/2008 4:38:17 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Again, John 21:22

2/4/2008 5:13:24 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

The Christian life is not meant to be lived alone. You can not mean to say that we should not have any regard for our brothers in Christ. One example: What of Paul and the Corinthians? He didn't say "I'm living my life for Christ, God will take care of the Corinthians." He was the instrument used by God to correct and encourage them. The question we are asking here is not if we should help our brother with the plank in his eye, it is how we should. I think we can learn a lot about how to love our fellow Christians by how Paul interacts with the Corinthians. I will re-read 1+2 Corinthians and you all should too :oD.

2/5/2008 12:00:15 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

As I believe in keeping things in context here are some of the pertinent chapters/verses I've found so far:

1 Corinthians 4:9-13
We are on display for everyone to see.

1 Corinthians 5
This is a tough chapter. Are we too soft on immorality in the church? I'd appreciate some comments on this one. To me it seems kind of harsh but perhaps necessary?

1 Corinthians 13
The importance of love in everything we do.

1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. 14Do everything in love.

2/7/2008 4:14:07 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

XFrogger,

I agree chapter 5 is hard. Paul is admonishing the church for not putting the man out who slept with his father's wife. And Paul readily admits that he is judging the brother. This contradicts Jesus' words in Luke 6:37. I understand that Paul was Saul then and not privy to the words Jesus spoke. So, whose report will you adhere to, Paul or Jesus? That is the question we must ask ourselves in this chapter.

I choose Jesus. I will not judge. I will forgive.

2/7/2008 5:32:14 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I don't believe there are any contradictions in the Bible. Call me a traditionalist but either the Bible is entirely true, or it is not true. All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). We can't ignore what Paul is saying in that chapter and we can't deny that Paul was truly trying to help the Corinthians in their walk with Christ. We know what is right and what is wrong; the Bible tells us that. If we are not supposed to judge; how are we to correct?

Taken from christnotes.org commentary on Luke 6:37: "We ought to be very careful when we blame others; for we need allowance ourselves." Perhaps that is what Jesus was trying to say?

1 Cor 5:12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

2/13/2008 2:40:09 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

XFrogger and Mrs. Piggy - I think we agree on the preeminence of love (is anyone else drawing Muppet imagery?).

I appreciate Mrs. Piggy's attitude of not wanting to see the splinter in the eye of another. This approach would make Mrs. Piggy a welcoming representative of God's love to the world - love does cover a multitude of sins. I also think the two commandments, abridged as Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul and mind & love your neighbor as yourself is essential in this discussion. I see XFrogger's point about our need to lovingly help people remove sin due to its destructive impact on the individual as well as the larger body - to neglect doing this would not be love.

However, I remain fixated on how Christianity at large, and so many of we practitioners have failed to portray the love of God to the world. The fact that we are still debating this issue after so many years means we've missed the mark despite so many scriptures pointing the way.

If all Christians could pray a personalized version of the prayer Christ prayed prior to his sacrifice (John 17:20 25), where would we be?

I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.

Instead of being viewed as praying for and living in unity, I think we are more often being caught forcefully trying to remove splinters while encumbered by our own planks. Don't we all respond much more favorably to love than correction? It was God's love that first caught our attention and inspired us to want to change, as well as made it possible to change.

XFrogger mentioned 1 Corinthians 13:2; if there exists a faith which can move mountains, but yet be rendered powerless in the absence of love, why can't Christians resolve this issue? Imagine we learn how to use this mountain-moving faith, with Christ-like love to present Christianity to the world.

Certainly, we can't begin to make improvements until we first set to work on our lives to affect personal revivals. What would it take to start a Christianity-wide revival? We've been given the tools, no?

2/13/2008 6:02:55 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Did you notice that the brother (after judgment) became "the wicked man". Also, Paul said to expel him. Please explain to me how this falls into the category of "love the sinner, hate the sin"? To call the brother wicked refers to his character, not his act. I'm way over my head in understanding this. Loving the sinner, to me, would not have changed his "brother" status. Expelling him seems more like a punishment than correction. I do understand that "the yeast" works through the whole loaf.

In my opinion, it would have been more loving to confront the brother in love, make him aware that his behavior was unacceptable and let him repent. Afterall, Jesus said He did not come to save the righteous.

2/13/2008 6:08:44 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Muppets, huh? No visions in my head. I'm mrspiggy because my husband's nickname is piggy.
Ok, seriously, yes, I'm all for a worldwide revival. Where should we hold it? And when?

2/13/2008 6:15:51 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi Folks, I have been reading your thought provoking discussions. As I read I thought of Jesus rebuking Peter (Mt 16:23) because of Peter's wrong thinking/behavior. Jesus made a judgement about Peter's rebuke of Jesus as Jesus was telling His disciples about His upcomming suffering and death. Jesus called Peter "Satan" and ordered Peter out of His sight! He rebuked Peter for his error (was this loving treatment)? I think really it was because Jesus was effectively getting Peter's attention (in front of all the others) and showing him (and them and us) how and why Peter was in error! This seeming extreme response by Jesus may be a result of His concern and prayers He had been praying for Peter as Satan was working in Peters life to render him ineffective (Luke 22:31). As I thought about mrspiggy's (and our) reluctance to mess with the speck in our brothers and sisters eyes this stark example stands in contrast. I also agree that scripture is in unity rather than contradictory. So I looked up "judge" after reading Luke 6:37 in the Holman bible dictionary and found this helpful;
"As is frequently the case with biblical truths, the Christian's role in exercising judgment on others is found in a tension between warnings to avoid judging others and admonitions concerning how best to judge others. Christians are forbidden to judge others when such judgment entails intolerance of another's sin coupled with blindness of one's own sin (Matthew 7:1-5; Luke 6:37; John 8:7; Romans 2:1-4) or when human judgment impinges on God's prerogative as judge (Romans 14:4; 1 Corinthians 4:5; James 4:11-12). Instructions on proper exercise of judgment include: the call to judge reputed prophets by their fruits (Matthew 7:5-17); encouragement for Christians to judge what is right for themselves and thus avoid pagan lawcourts (Luke 12:57-59; 1 Corinthians 6:1-6); and instructions regarding church cases (Matthew 18:15-20). 1 Corinthians 5:3-5 illustrates the function of a church court."
Chris Church
Copyright Statement
These dictionary topics are from the Holman Bible Dictionary, published by Broadman & Holman, 1991. All rights reserved. Used by permission of Broadman & Holman.
Bibliography Information
Butler, Trent C. Editor.. "Entry for 'JUDGE (OFFICE)'". "Holman Bible Dictionary".
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T3529>. 1991.
I hope and pray this will be helpful to you also!

2/16/2008 6:28:55 PM by Reflector, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/19/2008

Very eye-opening post Reflector. How then should we live?

Ryan said:

Certainly, we can't begin to make improvements until we first set to work on our lives to affect personal revivals. What would it take to start a Christianity-wide revival? We've been given the tools, no?

That is the key. I think, what we have to do is denounce the misguided Christians that promote hate. Our non-Christian friends see "God hates gays" signs, sexual immorality in the catholic church, and the infamous killing of the homosexual kid Matthew Shepard. What we need to do is tell them, on a personal level, that these things are not at all what Christianity is all about. We are ambassadors of Christ; our own lives should reflect that. We can not stop people and the media from focusing on the negative examples of Christians. What we can do is say that we are not like that and do not condone what they are doing. IMO mass evangelism is a thing of the past. We need to understand and connect with people on a personal level.

3/4/2008 11:56:57 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Reflector,

It so happens we just covered this in church on Sunday. Jesus was not really rebuking Peter. He was pointing out that "we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with the forces of evil". Jesus knew that satan put those words in Peter's mouth. We are to realize that the prince of darkness is using people to create disharmony among us. Jesus also said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Another case of seeing the splinter in your brother's eye.

I believe that we are to judge ourselves as to the true motives of our hearts in all we do. This is why David wrote in Psalms 19:14, "May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight".

XFrogger,
I agree that on a personal level is the best way. Since salvation itself is personal and each person must accept Christ as his personal Saviour, and we must each stand before God and give a personal account of all we did and did not do, this seems the best approach. We must understand that we are to concern ourselves with the spirit of the matter. We are the sons of God because we have the Spirit of God and whoever does not have His Spirit is not His son. We have to live by the Spirit. Man sees the flesh, but God sees the Spirit. "By this will others know that you are mine, that you show love one for another.

3/4/2008 2:01:51 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

A positive example of love the sinner, hate the sin:

Remember Matthew Murray's killing spree of December 2007? He fatally shot two staff, and wounded two others at the Arvada, Colorado campus of Youth With A Mission (YWAM) before proceeding to New Life Church in Colorado Springs where he killed two young women. I heard the other day that shortly after this massacre, a group of 300 members of YWAM gathered for a worship service and then crowded into the hallway where the first shootings took place. The group shouted in unison, and with enthusiasm, "WE FORGIVE YOU MATTHEW MURRAY!"

Does anyone else think this act of love deserved headlines? After I heard they had done this, I scanned some of the news stories from the days after the December 9th killings. Several of the stories had comments about how the families of the victims, as well as others who witnessed the carnage at the two locations, spoke about forgiving the gunman. In fact, some of the earliest quotes after the tragedy expressed forgiveness of Murray. Perhaps it is a fault of my perspective but, I don't recall that angle being highlighted in the media during the flood of news stories. I couldn't find an article depicting this heart-felt shout of forgiveness; I did find an account of the event in a blog, connected to one of the participants.

Forgiveness is a loving trait we can offer this desperately needy world. Turning the other check should be a more powerful example of God's love than all the in-fighting that Christians too often display.

3/13/2008 7:57:53 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007