Hello. While reading one of our lessons for Sunday school,I came across a couple of questions and I'd like your ideas. One asks "When a great tragedy occurs,is it God's punishment for sin?" and the other "Is catastrophe God's way of bringing people to repentance?" What do you think?

Alison- 12/24/2007 4:45:56 PM

I think your question has both a yes and a no answer.

All tragedy and catastrophes can be the result of sin. For example, someone who murders someone else is obviously sinning or someone who breaks the law by driving drunk and then harms someone can also be the result of sin and poor judgment. Many things on this earth are due to human errors, human faults, flaws and sin.

This is not to say that all tragedy is God's punishment for sin. Sometimes it is the result of living in a world which has consequences for every action and that there are natural consequences that just occur. Also, the planet is governed by the general laws of physics, etc. which God put into place at the beginning of time. Shifts in land which produce an earthquake and then result in thousands of lives being lost does not necessarily come as a direct result of God ordering it. It is more likely that it is a natural consequence of the shifting earth and those who live on or near fault lines are more at risk of having a tragedy such as this befall them.

Now, God does use each and every opportunity to bring people into reconciliation with him and into repentance. The person who drove drunk and is now in jail might just have the time to rethink their actions and perhaps seek God. Maybe the victim's family will realize that forgiveness is a way of showing compassion and their Christian faith in the most difficult of times. God can use natural events too to draw people together and to allow people to see that they really do "need" God. Someone who gets everything in life and things go smoothly may have a much more difficult time empathizing with others and also seeing that they need God. I think that the majority of people, when faced with a life/death situation have a greater chance at crying out for God than those who are happily enjoying a blissful life.

There are examples too in the bible of times that God has wiped out an entire generation or group of people when his anger burned against them. While he has promised not to flood the earth again, I am sure that there are times that God is angry and hurt when people turn their back on him and worship idols. In these circumstances, God's provision and angels won't be protecting them like he would a Christian (which is not to say, though that Christians don't experience pain, hurt, death, etc.).

I think it should be noted that it states a lot in the bible that God "grieves'. I think any tragedy or catastrophe God is grieving for all the pain it is causing people. While he must let the natural course of things happen, I think he weeps and cries with us, especially when it could have been prevented by better human decisions and choices.

I hope this helps. This is just a perspective I have come to believe so I am open for debate, etc. if there are those that feel differently.

ChrisG- 12/28/2007 4:58:36 PM

I agree with everything Chris wrote, but I think I can simply it a bit (I hope that's ok Chris). I will avoid using the word punishment, because that comes with all kinds of negative connotations, which is too bad since God's justice is an amazing and beautiful thing.

What I will say is that all tragedy and suffering is the result of sin in three ways - directly by man, directly by God, or indirectly by nature.

1) Directly by man - Chris explains this very well - the vast majority of suffering is directly caused by one person hurting another, deliberately or accidentally. This demonstrates the effect of sin in the purest way.

2) Directly by God - I would say that some natural disasters and perhaps even some other tragedies are directly caused by God as a result of His justice, his call to repentance, or for some greater good which is beyond understanding. The Bible is full of examples, and we should not assume God does not work this way anymore. How much tragedy? How often? No one knows. Was the tsunami a call to repent? Was New Orleans? Maybe, maybe not. Either of those could be number 3. When someone gets a disease, could it be directly caused by God? It's possible that the disease is part of God's plan for that person, or it could be number 3. I do not think we can ever know which is which for certain.

3) The cumulative result of all of our sin (and original sin) is that we live in a broken world. There is famine, disease, natural disasters and all kinds of other strife. You may not be able to point to a single disaster and say that it was directly caused by a specific sin. Like Jesus tells his disciples about the blind man - it's not about who sinned. It's collective. Instead, you can say that many kinds of suffering are the result of all sin. This will always be the cause until we die or our Lord comes again - the world is broken and is the source of so much suffering, but it can also be the source of so much joy. Thank God for that!

arsindelve- 12/29/2007 9:45:32 AM

God is the source of every good thing. Again, I say the earth was given to man to rule over and dominate. WE allow the tragedies and disasters. Most of the "natural disasters" that occur could be prevented. New Orleans, for example. Man built the dam knowing that anything built by man would hold temporarily. Nothing made by man can last long. So, why wasn't it maintained by the builders? As you know scientist get paid to study faults around the world. Someone is aware of the possibility of an earthquake prior to.

God is not the source of hurricanes or mud slides. It is man that has so destroyed the earth by cutting down the trees to build effices and monuments to themselves. Most "natural" disasters are "manmade".
If you really think about it, you'll see it's true. Wars (man's ego), earthquakes, hurricanes, tidal waves, etc. All cause by the way man has incorrectly dominated the earth. We would be like Adam blaming God for giving him Eve after sinning if we blame God for the mess we have made of the earth.

mrspiggy- 1/20/2008 4:35:27 PM

Also, do you really think God would kill your babies to get you to worship Him? That would negate free will, right? Remember, He can make the stones cry out.

God's correction is not brutal.

mrspiggy- 1/20/2008 4:41:45 PM

What would the punishment be if The whole Jesus story was a lie??

JesusWazzaZombi- 3/17/2008 3:51:58 PM

I don't understand this question. Are you referring to Jesus, the Christ? The One who died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins? The One who said, "Have faith in God"? The One who taught the sermon on the mount? The One who walked on water? The One who said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do."? The One who taught that every good gift comes from God? The One who said forgive others so that you will be forgiven? The One who spoke in parables to confuse the wise? The One who said,"Love your neighbors as you love yourself."? The One who healed the sick and raised the dead? The One who sits at the right hand of God, interceding for us? Is this the Jesus you mean?

mrspiggy- 3/17/2008 4:52:12 PM

Yes.. what if these were just stories or fables used as manipulation by a power-hungry church to control the masses? What proof is there, hard historical evidence, that this man/"God" lived?

JesusWazzaZombi- 3/17/2008 5:00:19 PM

Proving that Jesus really lived and was exactly who he said he was is one of the most important reasons this web site exists. If you explore the content with an open mind, I think you will be surprised just how persuasive the argument is. Here is a good place to start: http://delveintojesus.com/discovery/7/The-Case-For-Christ.aspx If you're genuinely curious and open-minded, then we would be more than happy to answer any questions you have, or debate the tough issues with you.

arsindelve- 3/17/2008 5:04:21 PM

I would definitely be willing to approach the story of Jesus with an open mind. I thank you for your comment and Jesus was an interesting man in story, but how much of these stories are actual fact? Most of the accounts of Jesus were written many years after his death by second and third hand. I would like to believe in a savior but faith shouldn't imply ignorance to the facts but more of a communication from God on the understanding that we are all here together spiritually.

JesusWazzaZombi- 3/17/2008 5:19:57 PM

You make an extremely important point, one that I'm afraid many well-meaning Christians may have overlooked. For me, personally, I do not believe the stories are accurate because I have faith - I have faith because I believe the stories are accurate. I looked at all the evidence (and as X-Frogger suggests, Strobel's book is the best there is for this) and came to the conclusion (based solely on the evidence) that Christ was the Son of God. From that, I decided to have faith. I hope you find the evidence as persuasive as I did! Again, that discovery path is a good place to start, or if you have the time, Strobel's book.

arsindelve- 3/17/2008 5:36:38 PM

I thank you for the comment and the explanation of your faith, which was a little confusing, but I think I get what you mean. I believe any sort of spiritual journey is worth the price of admission but to claim a man is the son of God with no accuracy or historical relevance is against my common sense and the purpose of my journey. It's not to worship, but to question and learn. Would you agree?

JesusWazzaZombi- 3/17/2008 5:53:34 PM

Of course. Every journey begins with questions, answers and learning. In the case of Jesus Christ, that journey ends in worship because His story checks out. When it comes to other men, they either made no claims to deity, or their claims don't check out, and so I don't worship them. But when I weight the evidence for Christ, I am convinced of his identity and so I respond with worship. But yes, common sense plays a HUGE part. I weight the evidence for Christ as I would weight any evidence - "Does this makes sense? Does it add up?" For me, the answer is a resounding yes.

arsindelve- 3/17/2008 6:02:00 PM

Okay JesusWazzaZombie, IF the story of Jesus is a fable/myth and has caused millions of people to NOT kill, steal, lie, fornicate or commit adultry; why would it be a bad thing? If it has caused millions of people to be united in love, giving respect to each other's decision to believe or not believe, where is the harm?

mrspiggy- 3/18/2008 9:39:08 AM

I heard the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he didn't exist. I think his greatest trick was to convince people Jesus didn't exist.

Even IF we have all been manipulated by some fathom "organization" and this belief has caused us to be better people, I am not mad about it. It's a good thing!!

mrspiggy- 3/18/2008 9:45:59 AM

If you don't mind, Mrs. Piggy, I'm going to agree with you but take that thought one step further. I think the great trick is convincing the world He DID exist....and that he's nothing more than a good man with some good ideas....just a thought.

arsindelve- 3/18/2008 9:49:27 AM

Mrs Piggy,
You had asked earlier "The One who spoke in parables to confuse the wise?".I thought that He spoke in parables so that we could better understand His teachings.

Alison- 3/18/2008 3:02:12 PM

The disciples came to him and asked "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, " The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. (Matt. 13: 10-11)

He uses the simple things of the world to confound the wise (1st Cor. 1:27)

I guess the gift of knowledge overcame me on this one. The gift of knowledge is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ to discover, accumulate, analyze and clarify information and ides which are pertinent to the well being of the body.

mrspiggy- 3/18/2008 3:38:40 PM

Arsin agreeing with me? All things are possible with God!!

mrspiggy- 3/18/2008 3:40:04 PM

Mrs. Piggy. I agree with you 97 percent of the time. The 3 percent of the time, I typically say something. The other 97 percent of the time, I usually say nothing. So, you can assume if I say nothing that I agree with you, which is almost always ;)

arsindelve- 3/18/2008 3:43:09 PM

Alison,

I really think it's both. People with hardened hearts won't get the message. Those who follow Jesus will get the message (through the power of the Spirit).

Either way, parables are designed to shock and outrage you. If you have a hardened heart, you are outraged at the teller and get nothing from it except anger and bitterness. If your heart is good, you are outraged at the injustice of it and it compels you to respond and repent. It's powerful either way. Notice how the Pharisees reacted to most of them?.....

arsindelve- 3/18/2008 3:47:08 PM

Just throwing in my two cents here - I recently had a string of events in my life that brought me to my knees and back into the Scriptures, where I should have been in the first place. There is an excellent book that I read entitled "When God Doesn't Make Sense" by Dr. James Dobson. It really helped me to understand why bad things happen to good people... and it grew my faith immensely. I am thoroughly convinced that these things happened in my life to bring me to my knees and to draw my eyes to God. ;) These questions are not easily answered, and I admire you for asking them.

txhoneydarlin- 4/5/2008 1:28:20 PM

what about in the OT Bible when God demands entire cities to be destroyed for sins that occur rampantly today in the past and present.. God often calls for all the men to be destroyed (in some cases to spare only the virgin women), to kill the innocent babies and even the livestock.. ??

tombombadil4200- 6/4/2008 12:29:41 AM

Try this article tom: http://delveintojesus.com/articles/68/There-is-So-Much-Brutality-in-the-Old-Testament!.aspx
It might help a bit

Scott- 6/11/2008 10:11:04 AM