When my son was old enough to understand, this is what I said to him. "Son, I want you to flap your arms like mad and fly up into that tree".

I carried on .. "Of course I will quite understand if you can't, in fact I know very well that you never WILL be able to do what I would really like you to do .. but I understand.

In fact I have rigged up a pulley system so that I can hoist you up to the tree whilst you flap away merrily but pathetically, so there's no need to try ... I've organised it all for you. Under my breath ... "I do have to say would really LIKE you to fly yourself. Just keep trying son".

Now here's a question ... should I be certified?

"Love the Lord God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself".

I am lost for words. Truly appalling psychology ... ask someone to do what you know they never can? Guilt, shame, low self esteem, disappointment, despair .... it's inevitable surely.

Oh, but did I hear you say a heavenly pulley system has been provided?

When the Bible says that God works in mysterious ways it wasn't kidding was it!

This is an area I have had trouble with for years. In fact I abandoned my faith for 15 years as a result of thinking about those verses. I'm back now, but it's a bit precarious.

davec

10/15/2007 11:54:06 AM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

Davec,

It sounds like you are struggling with how God could create humans who are bound to fail and expect them not to fail which seems almost cruel and unfair.

I think that since we were created in God's image, that we have qualities of God within us, however, we are restricted by our human bodies, hearts and minds. The reason we fail is because we must fail otherwise we would be God and be perfect. Our failure gives us an opportunity to be humbled and to admit that we can't do anything without God's help.

I don't think God ever wants to see us fail but in giving us free will and choice and allowing us to be tempted by evil, I do think he was wise enough to realize that man was imperfect and would fail sooner or later. That's why he put in place a safety net and a rescue system--should we call out for it and accept his grace. In fact, he used the failures and sinful nature of man to bring about restoration (i.e. the death of Jesus by men gave way to restoration from God).

Also, sooner or later too we are brought to the realization that nothing we can do by works will make us perfect, that we can't be "good enough" to buy the ticket into heaven and that trying over and over again to attain the ideal is impossible--unless it is with God's help and us letting go of the control of it. The more we try to lead a blameless, perfect life on our own, the less likely it will ever happen and the more guilt-ridden we will get.

God hasn't made a mistake, though, in his design of humans. If he did, then He would be an imperfect God who errors in judgment and he wouldn't be a great God at all if that were the case.

I think it is easier to see that there is a purpose in it, rather than being frustrated that it must be some cruel joke or game. I try and ask that myself each day: What is the purpose in what I am going through and how can it bring me closer to God? What is the greater lesson or meaning and how does it shape who I am? If I try to think and think about how unfair things are or how crazy it is that God would create man who would fail but then want the best for him--then I think I would be focusing on the whys that I can't possibly understand and get tied up with things that only cloud my vision of what is truly meaningful.

Your question is something we all have asked and continue to ask. The fact that we ask it shows just how human we all are :)

10/15/2007 6:28:45 PM by CountyGalforGod, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/15/2007

Dave,

Sorry for the delay, but I really wanted to think about this. I think the important point you may have overlooked is that there is value in the process, even if we miss the target. In your analogy, it gives the impression that if the son does not fly on his own, the entire process was futile. But like so much in life, there is more to the journey than just the destination. God tells us to love him completely, and we cannot do that because we are imperfect creatures, but do we gain nothing by trying? Of course not, we grow and become better people.

We must not make the mistake on confusing Christ's death on the cross (by which salvation comes) with our value in God's eyes based on how much we love him. They are not the same thing. In your analogy, you have made the connection between the pulley and Christ's death, but, it's not quite right, because Christ's death is not exactly about making us able to love God completely. While on this earth, we will not be able to love God completely even despite Christ's sacrifice, but that does not mean it is a waste of time to try. God is extremely concerned with our salvation (provided for by Christ) but also with what kind of people we are becoming. God's command to love him is about the latter, not the former. As we try to love him, fail, try again and again, we are growing. We are learning. There is value in that.

I hope this helps. I think the best answers you can find will be in the book of Romans, where Paul talks about this topic at length. Romans is a VERY hard book to digest, much more than Mere Christianity. The best thing you can do to help is to get a little easier translation. The NIV and others are excellent for studying, but if you want to understand, you will want the NLT, or even the Message. Both of these are available free on BibleGateway.com

I have really enjoyed all of your questions. I hope you have found some help, and some peace. Please don't be discouraged! Whenever I get discouraged, I remember John 6:66-68, "At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, 'Are you going to leave, too?' Simon Peter replied, 'Lord, to whom would we go? You alone have the words that give eternal life. We believe them, and we know you are the Holy One of God.' - I love this verse because it reminds me "where else can I go?" Christianity is hard, but if I give up on it, I have given up on EVERYthing. There is no where else to turn for answers.

10/18/2007 9:16:51 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

"God tells us to love him completely, and we cannot do that because we are imperfect creatures, but do we gain nothing by trying? Of course not, we grow and become better people".

Yes, we do grow, and may become "better" people, but that seems to be dodging the actual issue .. they are byproducts. We are NOT doing what God asks/demands.

10/18/2007 12:48:58 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

You're right about one thing, making us better people is a by-product of the thing he's really asked us to do, which is to love him completely. But part of being better people is being better at loving him, which is not the by-product, it's what he really wants.

However, I think it's fine that God asks us to do something we cannot do. It's not malicious or disingenuous on His part, for our complete love is what he really wants. Using your example, it would only be disingenous if I really had no interest in seeing my son fly (and you never said this was the case, but I'm just putting this clarification out there).

Your concern is that God is asking for a level of love we cannot give. I'm OK with this for a few reasons.

First, unlike your flying example, there are levels of success. With flying to the tree, I either can do it or I can't. With love, there are infinite levels, so even if we don't achieve the highest level, we are still achieving SOMEthing. We are not a total failure if we have failed to love God totally.

Second, since God is perfect, His love is perfect. This is the only level he can demand, since it is the level he deserves. I can't imaging God saying "Love me 95". He deserves it all, and so that it what he asks for. His justice demands this.

Imagine someone legally owes you 100. If you know they can only pay 35, you cannot simply reduce the debt to 35. This is not fair to you, and your sense of justice will not permit this. You can help them to pay the full amount (like Christ on the cross) and you can be merciful when they don't pay, but you can never simply ignore the other 65 which you are legally owed. I'm not sure I love this analogy, but it just popped into my head. I hope it helps.

Finally, though you called it a by-product, we can't ignore that by asking us to achieve more than we can give, God does make us better at loving him. He has set the bar high, so we are always reaching to meet it. If he set the bar lower, there would be some limit to our growth. He's like our coach, helping us to get better and better at it. A good coach always sets the bar higher than what we can give.

10/18/2007 1:10:21 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

"We are not a total failure if we have failed to love God totally".

I'm not sure I can agree. We have TOTALLY failed to love God WITH ALL OUR HEART AND SOUL AND MIND.

We might love God a bit, and we might get better at loving God, but will always have failed to do what was required.

A miss is as good as a mile surely?

10/18/2007 5:09:50 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

davec, the words that you write show that within your heart that you understand what God expects from us all. You must remember that we all have different amounts of capabilties with regard to ability. All of what you listed we are supposed to do according to ability. God would not expect a child, or someone with learning disabilties to show Him the same amount of love as would be measured by man. He does not use a slide rule or bell curve for the amount of devotion He expects from mankind.

We are to give as best we can, there will always be under and over achievers even where God is concerned. He will always accept all that you give regardless of our short comings. This is where repentance plays a part. When anyone of us feel we are falling short, this is all we must do. We are no more than the being of humanity, a faulty lump of flesh that God only expects so much from. We are to be Christ-Alike in our actions, we will never be Christ-Like. You and I and everyone else that truly loves God, will overcome a great many of our human failings through by grace of God. I believe the Marine Corp has a saying, "Be the best that you can be". This is all that God asks, to do our best and He will take care of the rest. Do not become too serious, it will only lead to self doubt and depression. Let the love that shines in your heart turn to a smile on your face and walk with an uplifted head. You have been chosen my friend, run with the ball and do not forget to pass it off to Christ when need be.
God bless you.
Love,
brother philip

10/24/2007 4:10:34 PM by brother philip, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/28/2007

I'm sorry bro, but God does NOT ask me to do my best ... he asks, demands, me to love him with all my heart, and love my brother as myself. That's what it says! Anything less is failure.

The more I think about it the more unloving that approach appears.

No can do.

davec

10/24/2007 5:52:28 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

Dave,

You've said more than a few times that God is being unfair by asking us to even try. I really want to get deep with you on this issue. I'm going to try something a little risky with you, but it might be worth it. Please don't be offended by what I am about to say; I'm going to challenge you from a place of genuine caring.

Here goes: By what right can you say that God is ever being unfair or unloving? God is the standard of goodness and righteousness. God is the one who gets to say what is right and wrong, good or evil. As John Montgomery says, "Where did you get such a standard that you can judge God by it?" So, here's the hard part. Whenever you are faced with a situation where you think God is wrong or unfair, you need to surrender to him and accept that he is right and you are wrong. So long as you hold onto your need to be right, you cannot surrender to him and make him Lord. I appreciate that you have questions and that you want answers, but when those answers are hard, there comes a time to make the decision that you will either let Him be Lord, or you will walk away.

Why not walk away? Because there is so much evidence that God is good and worthy of my worship that I don't see any other choice. You see, I have all this evidence in the world that demands a verdict. I have to explain how life on this planet got started. I have to explain this feeling inside me that makes me feel guilty when I do wrong. I have to explain all the evidence that Christ rose from the dead. For me, all of this stacks up so convincingly that I have no choice but to see that God is real. If he is real, then I have to surrender to him. So, as I say, whenever I think he is being unfair, I realize that it is me who does not understand. He cannot be unfair, he is standard by which we can even know what fair is.

Ask yourself honestly why you are struggling so much with this issue. Is really your head, or is it your heart? Are you having a hard time surrendering to God? I don't know, but I do know that there comes a time when we all have to stop asking questions and just take the plunge and surrender to him. I will never tire of answering your questions, please don't think that's what I'm saying, but I do encourage you to "get deep" about where your questions come from.

How are you making out with Mere Christianity? I cannot say enough about what this book can do. I just learned today that this is the book that led Francis Collins (the one who decoded the human genome) to Christ. Next to the Bible, I don't think there is any book which can do more to help you right now.

10/24/2007 7:13:33 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Of course I have no right to challenge God in any part of his creation, I know that .. but that certainly doesn't stop me questioning and trying to understand.

I would certainly hope that God's love for me exceeds beyond imagination my love for my own sons ... but that does not always seem the case.

I also know that I will NEVER know the mind of God ... foolish to even contemplate that of course ... but a bit of clarity here and there might be useful.

Many Bible characters ranted against God with much more vigour that I do.

I am struggling because I do not have a REAL relationship with him. You have to KNOW someone to REALLY trust them, and knowing them is not just getting a degree in understanding a book, or accepting other people's experience, or self brainwashing.

I actually know quite a bit ABOUT God, but I know him PERSONALLY very little. Sometimes that's quite depressing.

davec

10/25/2007 3:15:13 AM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

Dave,

I really appreciate your honesty. I'm not sure if you will be disappointed or relieved to hear this, but you and I are very much in the same boat. Everything you said in your last post resonated with me. I have struggled with this now for about 15 years. I know all about God, but I hardly know Him.

The worst part is that I know it's my own fault. I know how to have a better relationship with God - I've written countless devotionals about - but I never seem to be able to take my own advice! I never find the time to relax, to pray, to read my Bible. If I did those things, I would know him better. It's my personality to always be on the go, always working, always thinking. It's very difficult to know God from while in that mindset. The one or two times when I have genuinely felt God's presence have come from moments of great peace and tranquility. Unfortunately, with work, school and family, such moments are very rare.

There are too many other people who do have a close relationship with God (my wife for one) for me to think it's impossible. Clearly the problem is with me, not God.

I didn't tell you this to discourage you, on the contrary, I don't want you to feel like you are alone.

10/29/2007 9:20:29 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thanks AD ... I really appreciated that.

God has to be there in the busy as well though doesn't he? It's often in the "busy" of life that we really get to know people ... when things get tough and stressed.

Surely a retreat situation isn't the ONLY way to get to know God?

I think that I would still have problems stuck on a desert island by myself for a year. I would always be questioning what, in my little head, was God and what was just plain little old me.

Oh for a different personality type!!

davec

10/29/2007 12:57:23 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/10/2007

I don't agree that we really get to know people in stressful times. I think all you get to see is how they react to stress! If I wanted to really get to know someone, I think a retreat would actually be the best option. But of course God is always there, when you're busy or when you're relaxing. It's just that most people don't take the time to reach out to him when they have a lot on their mind. But those people who take the time to make him number one, to pray and read the Bible even when they have a million other things to do, these are the people who really have a great relationship with God. This is not me talking from experience, by the way, I'm the worst offender of all!

10/31/2007 8:23:00 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Davec
Nowhere, in the scriptures does it say that God created the concept of justice. This is strictly a concept of man; another tool in the devels work bench. "vengence is mine saith the lord."

Arsindelve
Only in silence will you hear the word of God. Quiet your mind.

12/18/2007 1:45:05 AM by Thom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/18/2007

We don't want justice!! Justice would mean getting what we deserve. We want what God provides: MERCY.

3/22/2008 6:39:08 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

wow reading this is asmazing, I just found this sight because i'm trying to understand TORTOUR( i don't think i spelt that right) I teach Sunday School, 2nd and 3rd grade . and I tell the kids, God loves his children, to pray and talk to god whenever they want he will listen and be there to protect and watch over them. but is this true ? I know it is, I know God loves us, BUT HOW DO I TEACH THIS WHEN CHILDREN GET ABDUCTED AND THEY SUFFER FOR WEEKS, AND THEY PRAY, GOD LOVES ME, PLEASE KEEP ME SAFE. BUT THAT WILL NOT BE THE CASE, WITHOUT BEING TO DETAILED BECAUSE IT MAKES ME SICK,YOU KNOW THE THINGS THAT WILL BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN TO THAT CHILD. AND I DO WANT TO BE ABLE TO SAY I TRUST GOD AND MY FAITH WILL GET ME THROUGH IT, BUT AS DAVE SAIDTRYING TO UNDERSTAND DOESN'T MEAN WERE CHALLANGING HIM. IT'S JUST SOMETHING THATS HARD FOR ME AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE OF MY LOVE FOR GOD, WE ALWAYS USE THE EXAMPLE OF OUR OWN CHILDREN, WELL I HAVE A LOT OF FAITH IN THEM BUT THERE ARE MANY TIMES I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING,AND WANT TO UNDERSTAND, BUT I DON'T LOVE THEM ANY LESS. I STILL HAVE FAITH IN THEM AND I STILL BELIEVE IN THEM . THATS MY STRUGGLE AND I DON'T LIKE THE FEELING OF THIS. BUT WHY

3/24/2008 12:25:54 AM by LORIL, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/24/2008

The Bible clearly states in Matthew 18:18

"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth, will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

We, as Christians, need to understand that the things that God allows are the things that WE allow. God cannot go against His word. Jesus has given US the keys of heaven. Our prayer is, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". There are no children being tortured in heaven. We have the power and authority to bind it on earth.

3/24/2008 8:43:40 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

HOW DID A CHILD ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN?
IT IS TAUGHT TO CHILDREN TO PRAY AND THEY WILL BE PROTECTED GOD WILL WATCH OVER THEM HERE ON EARTH. I BELIEVE WE PRAY BECAUSE WE WANT GOD TO WATCH OVER US HERE. AS MY SON GOES OFF TO COLLAGE I'M GOING TO PRAY FOR GOD TO PLEASE WATCH OVER HIM AND PROTECT HIM.
OR PRAY GOD HELP MY SISTER TO BEAT THIS CANCER,THESE ARE PRAYERS THAT WE PRAY FOR ON EARTH ARE HOPE IS TO LIVE ETERNALLY IN HEAVEN. BUT ON EARTH, AS WE TRY TO LIVE OUR LIVES IN JESUS,WE
ARE TO PRAY, ALONE OR IN GROUPS, GOD WANTS US TO PRAY TO HIM.ABOUT WHAT WERE GOING THROUGH NOW,HERE ON EARTH I KNOW THERE IS NO TORTURE IN HEAVEN, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE WANT TO BE BRUTIALY MURDERED OR HAVE NEEDLESS TORTURE ON PEOPLE, UNDERSTAND I KNOW THERE IS EVIL, I KNOW GOD GIVES US FREE WILL, TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M ASKING, WHY WOULD PRAYER BE SO IMPORTANT TO GOD, WHY DO WE ALL WANT TO PRAY, IF PRAYS DID NOTHING FOR YOU ON EARTH, WE WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN AND WE PRAY I'M SURE THAT WE GO TO HEAVEN, BUT THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN BY PRAYER ALONE, AND WERE NOT GOING TO PRAY GOD PLEASE DON'T LET HER SUFFER OR HIM IN HEAVEN BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIL IN HEAVEN, WE PRAY FOR PROTECTION HERE ON EARTH. WE AS CHRISTIANS DO UNDERSTAND GOD ALLOWS BUT TO WORD IT LIKE YOU DID GOD ALLOWS WHAT WE ALLOW, IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER HEARD I DON'T ALLOW THAT SO THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENCE TO ME. LORIL

3/24/2008 7:49:47 PM by LORIL, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/24/2008

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" has nothing to do with us going to heaven. It's about bringing God's will to earth.

Okay, if my wording bothers you, I'll rephrase it. As Christians, we know that everything that happens occurs in the spirit realm and in the earthly realm. Jesus said whatever we bind (secure,fasten,hold, tie-up,restrict) on earth will be bound in heaven. And whatever we loose (not bound, release,let fly, unconfine) on earth will be loosed in heaven.

I'm sorry if this does not make sense to you. But God DID give man dominion on earth. (Genesis 1:26-28) True, Adam passed it over to satan. But, Jesus took it from satan when He went to the cross(Matthew 28:18), then He gave it back to us when He said, "In my name..." (Mark 15:17)

Yes, of course God wants us to pray that's why He said,
"If my people, who are called by my name (Christians), will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

And yes, christians have wicked ways. Doubt, unbelief, spiritual arrogance(pride). All wicked in the eyes of God. And we are to seek His face. Most of the time we pray seeking His hand. "Lord give me..." instead of "help me to be a better...". We ALWAYS seem to want something from God, rather than just wanting God. The ultimate goal is to become the image of Christ. He has given us the authority to do things in His name. Why? God has said if we declare a thing it is established. Why? God rested. Why? Not because He was tired, because He was through. He created the earth, gave us dominion, sent Jesus to show us how and Jesus gave us the authority and power (Holy Spirit) to do what needs to be done. He even gave us gifts for the purpose.

If you don't understand, there are others who may not understand. Until this makes sense to ALL Christians, not much will change on earth. We must all be on one accord. One God, one baptism, one people. Each one of us is a part of One Body. We all need each other to get the job done.

We cannot revert to Adam, playing the blame game. We, as Christians MUST use what we have been given to the glory of God. We must drive out demons (starting with our own), heal the sick, etc. If we don't do it, who will?

3/25/2008 10:10:15 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi Loril - you deserve a good answer to your original question on 03/24. I wish I had one. Actually, I think Mrs. Piggy's answer was excellent, even though it is far from what you and I were hoping for at that time.

I have young children, so this topic is important to me. One of the most difficult situations for us to contemplate is why some children have suffered abuse and how can we help them cope - especially when their trust has been betrayed by parents or religious figures. Due to the precious way children express faith, I wonder if we erroneously assume their faith is more fragile than it is. Since we are told to be like little children, I can imagine this to include learning from the clarity and simplicity with which children see and approach God.

A few months ago, my daughter was experiencing terrifying nightmares. We prayed together, and I taught her to pray for protection. After praying so fervently, I was crushed to see the nightmares persist for awhile. She was more resilient than I, and has agreed that even though the nightmares continued, she is, in reality, safe. Perhaps there are many lessons we can learn from our nightmare episode. I'm glad my daughter knows how to call out for protection in Jesus' name. She will need this skill throughout her life.

A couple of days ago, I attended a Passion Play; this was really the first time I paid attention to the story during this type of production. Because it was the Easter season, I was prepared to see the crucifixion and resurrection scenes. To my surprise, the part which also had a significant impact on me was the brief depiction of Jesus as a child. I am aware that our children belong to Him, and he understands their needs better than we do. Nevertheless, this simple scene touched me at a time when I needed refreshed confidence.

I am encouraged by your enthusiasm and concern for your Sunday School students. I don't know how to answer your question, except that we are required to teach and equip our children, and trust God to take care of their ultimate safety. Perhaps others can provide suggestions on how to accomplish this. I hope you keep questioning and seeking answers, so that you can help us gain understanding on this issue.

3/26/2008 9:36:48 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

It escapes me. What is the original question that I did not answer?

3/26/2008 10:17:18 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

HOW DID A CHILD ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN?

Is this the question? In answer to this, it is not the child who allowed it to happen. Where was the parent or guradian? Children are to be protected by adults at all times. The adult who left the child unprotected allowed it to happen. God hears all the children's prayers. He gives the parents, guardians, teachers, babysitters, adult relatives, etc to be responsible for them. All children born were born with parents at least a mother. She is the first line of defense.

We teach our children not to go with strangers and "make some noise" if a stranger tries to take you anyway. This is why children should never be left alone.

I know you've heard the expression it takes a village to raise a child. So, where was the village when the child was taken?

There are people that God has purposed to protect the children. They will answer to God for this.

3/26/2008 10:42:54 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy - I appreciated your first answer, and all the time you give to these discussions. I assume you don't feel that I require that you answer anything and I trust you know I enjoy considering your views on these subjects.

The original question, as I see it, was about understanding God and faith, as well as how we help children understand God and faith. Loril mentioned she enjoys teaching children to love and trust God for protection. However, she also knows some children will experience abuse, even when they are praying for protection. This is a very difficult dilemma to consider.

3/26/2008 11:30:28 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

This brings me back to being on one accord. When my son was very young I would not leave him with a non-Christian. That's right. I HAD to be sure the person watching over my child was a believer also. We, the sitter, my son and myself would pray together. The word of God says, where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I with them.

The word also says, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:19)

When he was old enough to go to school, I put him in church school. I prayed with his teacher. Not just for him, but all the children.

No, I am not saying we should only leave our children with Christians. That's what I did. However, I do believe the scripture that says : do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers goes beyond who we marry and extends to any important relationship.

Again, this is what I believe.

3/26/2008 11:32:21 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan,

I never assume you don't require an answer. Every question should be answered. I was not sure what the question was. That's why I wrote ask me a direct question and I will give a direct answer. So, what is the question?

3/26/2008 11:37:11 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I don't object to the standard you set for your child. Unfortunately, children have suffered at the hands of professing Christians. Regardless of who the abuser is, how do we comprehend the scenario of children enduring abuse, even though they are trusting that God loves them and will protect them?

3/26/2008 11:42:52 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I don't know.

3/26/2008 11:49:24 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

You will surprise me once again if that is your final word on the matter.

3/26/2008 11:55:03 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Mrs Piggy is going to have a coronary for all the agreeing with her I've done, but I really see eye-to-eye with her on this one. We are all God's agents here on earth. When a child is hurt, a human being (or more than one) failed in his/her God assigned duties to love and obey. We cannot point the blame at God for this we fail. When we all obey God perfectly, there will be no more suffering of this kind on this earth (disease and natural disasters notwithstanding). As long as we keep failing, someone is going to get hurt.

3/26/2008 11:56:08 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

even though they are trusting that God loves them and will protect them

...God loves them and protects them, primarily, though us. God loves them when we love them and do good in His name. He protects them when we protect them in His name.

God has shown a reluctance to operate or intervene supernaturally in this world during except during extreme circumstances. For whatever reason, He does not come down from heaven and stomp on the head of man moments before he abuses a child. He has commanded us to ensure this abuse never happens. He operates through us, and His will is done or is not done by us. (Eventually it will be done by Him in the end)

For me, His decision to trust us to do His will is a mystery. The fact that we do it poorly, disobediently and reluctantly and people suffer as a result is no mystery.

3/26/2008 12:02:43 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

No Arsin, I am not going to have a coronary. My soul prospers that God has confirmed His word through you. I rejoice in what you have written.

No Ryan, you will not be surprised again on this subject. "I don't know", is a viable answer.

As I stated earlier and probably elsewhere, the answers to our questions are in the Bible. Just there are physical principles/laws(such as gravity) set in place , there are spiritual principles/laws set in place. You know about seed time and harvest time, right? You know that life and death are in the power of the tongue. This is the law of confession. You will have what you say.

Think about Job for a minute. He said, "The thing I feared has come upon me."

Let me clear this up right now. I am NOT saying that the child said the words. But maybe some other person spoke into the child's life. They may have said something as simple as, "If you don't stay in the yard, somebody's going to kidnap you." This is why we must watch what we say.

As I stated before, the principles apply whether we are aware of them or not. Whether we believe them or not. Whether we are saved or not. He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust.

All these things are in the Bible.

3/26/2008 1:48:11 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

A lot of Spiritual principles are in Proverbs.They are throughout the Bible, but most in Proverbs.