What is grace? I always assumed it is free and unmerited. Does God only help/ respond to/ bless those who do his will and are "good" disciples? What about me and the other trillion,perhaps a slight exaggeration, Christians who fail on a very regular basis?

On a slightly different tack, but the same underlying theme, will God bless me financially only if I tithe ... like a sort of reward for being "good/obedient"?

What sort of God would that be??
davec

davec- 10/11/2007 3:59:35 PM

Dave, your questions and comments come at a very opportune time. I have been struggling with some of these issues as well, and I have also been corresponding with another member of the site by email about issues related to this. I am going to ask him to join this discussion because it's relevant to what you've asked.

I hold a very different opinion than many Christians. It's very popular to believe in the "prosperity Gospel" these days, which basically says that if you're doing everything right, God will bless you in material ways. You will have peace, happiness and financial stability. I guess the unspoken flip side is that if you're suffering, it's because you're doing something wrong (but shhh, we're not supposed to think about that).

I'm not buying any of it. I think God is more interested in who am I becoming as a person than my well-being and material wealth. As a Christian, I expect suffering, trouble and difficulties. This does not mean that God does not love me and want the best for me - he does - but it means that my long-term good has nothing to do with my happiness now. I see no evidence from the Bible that we should expect to have things easy in this world. I expect that for as long as I am on this earth serving God, things will be very hard for me. I'm ok with that, because I care nothing for my happiness now. I am working for my treasures stored up in heaven. I will take as much suffering as God will permit so long as it's making me a better person, or advancing the kingdom.

But, I've gotten off topic; you asked about grace. I don't think grace has much to do with happiness, and it has next to nothing to do with material wealth. Grace is the gift that God gives us which permits us to see the truth of the Gospel. By nature, we are blind to the fact that we are sinners and need him. Grace is what opens our eyes. Grace is what sustains us when we feel low and keeps us moving in the right direction.

I don't mean to sound negative. What I'm saying has nothing to do with God's goodness or His love for me. I know he has a plan for me and I trust his plan with all my heart. It's just that I know his plan is big and long term, and there is no reason to think it has anything to do with my happiness or comfort when there is so much work to do. There will be time for peace and happiness in Heaven.

I know that many, many Christians don't share this opinion. Please let me hear from you all on this topic, because this weighs heavily on me and I would like to share this heavy burden with all you.

I doubt this makes you feel better, Dave, but at least you're not alone in asking these questions!

arsindelve- 10/11/2007 4:27:39 PM

Phil - I've asked you to join this conversation because I suspect you will have some words of encouragement and wisdom for Dave, and because Dave's questions pertain somewhat to areas where you and I disagreed on my reflection.

You objected to my statements that God would permit, or even cause someone to suffer through an addiction. It sounds like something a loving God could never do. I get in trouble for saying things like this all the time, but I do believe that God does allow or even cause short-term suffering for long-term gain. As I wrote to Dave, I don't think God is primarily concerned with our happiness except where it happens to coincide with his long-term goals. His long-terms goals are to call us to him and then to make us into the kind of good person he knows we can be. I think that often requires some suffering through which we grow and learn. I don't know how much we can learn or grow when our life always works out perfectly and we always get what we want. The passages what sticks out for me is how it will be harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Wealth is fine if it happens by coincidence, but when we seek it or desire it, we are in trouble. I think few of us can handle it (I know I cannot) so God is actually helping us by keeping our lifestyle modest.

Please let me know what you think about this issue. I was very deliberate when I wrote that God permits suffering. He loves us so much and wants the best for us, but sometime what's best for us is short-term suffering for long-term good. I know this is a very unpopular point of view, but if it's un-biblical I would gladly stand corrected.

arsindelve- 10/11/2007 4:43:53 PM

Dave - Steve Miller has replied to your comment on his article "Dealing With Difficult Trials Part 4" and I think you will be pleasantly surprised by his answer.

arsindelve- 10/11/2007 7:14:44 PM

Greetings and peace be upon you

Yes, grace is free and unmerited and it has nothing to do with material necessity. Although it is given at no cost by God, we do receive more of it in greater abundance the more that we strive to become closer to Christ, for it is needed in order to attain this. No man can do this on his own no matter how hard he may try; it is by grace that we gain the strength that it takes to overcome our temporal being.

Man must learn to accept that he can be or do nothing in a righteous way without the help of God. Once we accept this aspect of humankind and confess that we cannot accomplish anything on our own except by grace, then and only then can we move from the temporal realm of the flesh and into a spiritual one.

This life will be full of suffering for as long as time is permitted to go on. Its misery and suffering was brought on wholly by mans sin alone, God did not plan it this way. It is the result of a broken command and the consequence of sin. God is Love in its highest form; He is fair and kind in His judgment. He has no reason to exact punishment upon men in their lives; He will do this once and for all in the end. He does allow the trials and tribulations of life to affect mankind, it was all of our own doing and not of Him that brought this upon ourselves.

I do not feel that because one tithes they will receive in like kind. There is much talk of "Harvest", as one sows thus he shall reap. I believe this in strictly spiritual terms only. One must learn to separate materialism from spiritualism. If one works hard in his chosen profession he has the possibility of going far, just as the Christian that practices his faith gains a greater depth of faith and by doing so moves closer to Christ. The cards have been dealt and we are all given a hand, it is up to each of us personally to play them out. There are those that have received three aces while I have a pair of trips; but this is life There are times when God does intervene in our lives, this is quite apparent in some cases and there are those that go completely unnoticed by us. God does play "hard ball" but He is a Loving Father, and like most He does have a soft spot and truly shows it now and then in this tough life that we live.

God bless,

brother philip

brother philip- 10/11/2007 8:21:58 PM

God bless you all I have read the comments and the comments about grace are in error. Grace is a gift from God that brings us real joy cause we are saved by grace through faith. This all goes back to Jesus please remember that all answers to our questions are all in the bible God's word. 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16

Grace relates to our entire life God's word is for our entire life.

wisdom- 12/10/2007 3:15:54 PM

When it comes to the things of God we are not to lean to our own understanding cause it is not stable we must put our faith in the power of God not man's wisdom.

wisdom- 12/10/2007 3:20:40 PM

I believe that God's Grace is regarding salvation. With regards to our suffering, I think that He allows us to suffer (not MAKES us suffer) in order to teach us. ALso, this world does still belong to Satan and suffering is a part of it. God could intervene more, but that wold remove our own free will. God gave us free will, which produces consequences. So God is just, even though it does not seem fair to us. Our mistakes shape us and teach us. I have been broken and God has taken my broken spirit and body and soul and is rebuilding it into something acceptible to Him. It is hard but I am so much better for it. But you must allow it. If you knew me 5 years ago...wow! Ultimately, God IS in control. Satan must get permission from Him to do anything to us (see Job), but we are victims of our free will as well. And God does use the bad things to His own Glory.
Trying to understand the things of God, as stated above my post, is like trying to explain astrophysicism to a toddler.

Kim

solagratia- 1/10/2008 9:01:39 PM

Grace is God's merciful intervention into our lives. He does by grace, things that we could not do in and of ourselves. Such as sending Jesus to pay for our sins. We could not pay that price ourselves.

As for the tithe, just do it. It's about being obedient. And what's wrong with obeying God? Nothing. The Word says, "Test me in this", says the Lord Almighty, " and see if I will not throw open the gates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." Malachi 3:10.

This is the Word of God. Now, we must determine only this: Did God really say this or not? And if God said it: Did He mean it or not? And if He meant it: Why do we question it?

I think that most people are mistaken in that they will be rich if they tithe. Please note that He didn't say "blessings", just blessing. singular.

Now, it is for us to determine what the "blessing" is. I say it's God's Grace. It's by His grace that we overcome the adversities in our lives. Money is the answer to things, but even Grace will cause men to give money to you.

Properity is not always financial. Seek ye first the Kingdom of heaven and all the rest will be added.
Question yourself: Would you rather have money or Jesus? The greatest blessing is Jesus, the Christ.

mrspiggy- 2/1/2008 3:41:37 PM