Well, we might as well get into it. Mark and I have been debating this topic for quite some time (ever since it was posted as a question) so now that the forums are open, I thought we should take our debate here where everyone can benefit and/or join in. I'll let Mark open the debate, since I had the last word.

4/26/2007 6:44:59 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Well, for the benefit of everyone else, let me explain what we're debating. We know that we have free-will and that our choices are freely made and that they have real consequence. However, some people claim that God knows what we are going to do before we do it. If that is true, then we don't really have free will. You see, if I know that you are going to skip work tomorrow, then the choice is set for you. You essentially have no choice, you have to skip work because I have already seen it. So, free-will and foreknowledge are a contradiction - one of those cannot be true. My best guess is that God does not know what we are going to do before we do it. It's a surprise to Him. He reacts to our choices in order to bring about His master plan for the world, but He is as surprised as the rest of us and He is constantly coping and dealing with things as they happen. I don't like saying that, but I like saying we don't have free-will even less. As Neo replied to Morpheus in the Matrix, "I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life." I see his point.

4/26/2007 12:24:16 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

It's only a contradiction as it applies to us. In the context of God, it's not a contradiction. It is possible for both things to be true for him, even if they cannot both be true for us. As my ten-year old says any time I say "that's not possible", he quickly replies "God can do it!"

4/26/2007 1:06:53 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Read what Lewis says about this in "The Problem of Pain." A contradiction is nonsense, and it remains nonsense even if we bring God into the equation. In other words, we cannot make a contradiction true just by saying, "God can do it." For example, something cannot be both less than 12 and more than 12. It makes no sense to say, "God can make something which is more than 12 and less than 12." It's still a contradiction, and even God cannot make a contradiction true. It's still nonsense, as Lewis put it.

4/26/2007 1:18:45 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Then God made a rule that it is a surprise to him what we do, but that is his rule and then he can change that rule anytime he wants to but if he changes that rule then he must change other rules he put into place which would change the whole world. It is the same thing about Jesus on the cross. He could have taken him down from the cross but if he did that then that would have changed the prophesies before and that would mess everything up. People should just know that God lives by his own pre-set rules and that you can't begin to figure God out.

4/26/2007 1:19:32 PM by Julie, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2007

One more post and then I'll drop it until tomorrow. Lewis is right about contradictions and nonsense, but that's not what I'm talking about. Julie is pretty close with her post. I'm not saying that God can make a contradiction true, what I'm saying is that what is impossible for us is possible for Him, and therefore not a contradiction for Him. Let me give you an example. It would be a contradiction for me to say "I am in Paris and I am in London." Impossible. I am either in one place or the other. Yet, God can say this and it's not a contradiction because God does not have this limitation. The same is true about time and free-will - God does not have the limitations that we do. We are bound in the "steam" of time which flows only one way, but God is outside of that stream. When someone says God is eternal, it doesn't really mean that He exists from the beginning of time to the end of time. It means He exists outside of time. Since He is outside of it, the rules that bind us do not bind Him. Let me try this example. There are a series of cubes, and you are permitted to hold only one at a time. Before you can hold another, you have to give the first one back. Suppose someone told you that they were holding two cubes at once. You would say "impossible" because that is outside the rules that you know. But those rules have been imposed on you. They need not necessarily apply to everyone. God made the rules of time, he does not have to obey them. Ok, back to work for both of us, lunch is over.

4/26/2007 1:38:38 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think your answer is a bit of a cop-out. Philosophically, there is no difference between saying "God exists outside of time" and your ten year old saying "God can do it." These responses don't contribute anything to the argument, and so I think they are exactly what Lewis is talking about. We live in this world with these rules, and so whatever is a contradiction to us is a contradiction, period. You can't resolve the contradiction by appealing to some other set of rules which don't apply to us. That's cheating! When God interacts with us, He has to appeal to lowest common denominator (us), which means our rules apply to Him in that context. Whatever rules apply to Him when he is outside our context is immaterial. So, I say again, it has to be one or the other - he doesn't know the future, or we don't really have free will. Can you resolve that without "cheating?"

5/1/2007 11:10:32 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

What you call "rules" are nothing more than your understanding of world in which you live and your ability to apprehend it and perceive it. They are not "universal", and violating the rules does not necessarily constitute a contradiction. What you call a "rule" (that nothing can have free-will and know the future) is no such thing, it's simply your inability to imagine the thing. I cannot imagine a four-dimensional object in my mind, yet mathematicians and physicists use n-dimensional objects in their equations all the time. I cannot imagine a being which is free and whose future is known. Big deal. Not being able to imagine it does not make it impossible. Can you truly understand what it means to be infinite or eternal? Of course not, yet you do not deny God these qualities, do you?

5/1/2007 8:39:45 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

This is a very slippery slope, Arsin, and I think you want to be careful on your way down. We cannot pick and choose when we will try to understand and explain God's mysteries and when will throw up our hands and say, "our rules do not apply" or "we can never understand". To give an example, we explain to non-Christians that there is pain and suffering in the world because we are free. God wants freely given, un-coerced love and so he makes us free. That freedom permits us to sin, and sin is at the root of most the pain and suffering. Now, I know you agree with this since that is the essence of your article on suffering. Lots of people respond to this dilemma by asking, "Why can't God make us free and not able to sin?" And what do we tell them? "God can't, it's a contradiction!" You can't have it both ways. If we cannot appeal to the cop-out in one case, we cannot apply it in the other.

5/4/2007 8:32:58 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Mark, if I were relying on my own understanding to decide what God can do or will do, then I would be on slippery ground, indeed. The fact is, I know what God can and can't do (or more precisely, will and will not do) because He tells me. The Bible tells us everything we need to know on this subject. The Bible tells me that God knows everything including the future and also affirms that we have free will. That's the way it is, no contradiction, end of story. Period. I'm not trying to apply the criteria to some situations and not others. I'm letting God speak for Himself and then I take Him at His word.

5/4/2007 11:37:32 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Appealing to the Bible is just another kind of cop-out. The whole point of theology is to try to understand the Bible. We began debating free-will and foreknowledge precisely because they are both affirmed by the Bible. By you saying, "because the Bible says so" defeats the purpose of theology, which is to better understand the Bible - so we're back where we started with nothing to show for it.

5/7/2007 3:02:26 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I disagree, Mark. The purpose of Theology is not to "understand the Bible." It might seem like a subtle difference, but the point of Theology is to categorize and study what it contains in order to clarify doctrine. I think it's helpful at times to debate and discuss what the Bible contains, but I don't think it's our goal to understand it all. In this instance, it's perfectly clear that God gave us free will and that He knows the future. There is sufficient support for both of these precepts in scripture and so I think, theologically, our job is done and we can close the book. You can debate how these things works together, and strive to understand them, but that is philosophy, not theology. Therefore, I don't think it's a cop out whatsoever to say, "God has spoken" and to declare the issue closed. In the words of Dwight Moody, "I am glad there are things in the Bible I do not understand. If I could take that book up and read it as I would any other book, I might think I could write a book like that."

5/7/2007 6:38:29 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I'm not really concerned with whether we're debating theology or philosophy. Someone asked the question and so we're trying to get to the bottom of it. You really have not ever answered my question - why do we say with some contradictions, "God can" and with some, we say "God can't?" How can you explain that? (and don't keep going back around in circles saying, "Because the Bible says so!")

5/9/2007 10:48:31 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Yes, but do we need to understand every nuance of it in order to provide an answer? Let me give you a scientific analogy. Scientists have sufficient evidence to know that light sometimes behaves like particles and sometimes like waves. How can it be both? No one really knows, but that is where the evidence leads, and so that is the way it is. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I think's it arrogant to require a deep understanding of everything about God's nature before you can accept it. Surely, there are going to be things we cannot explain. I think we need humilty. The Bible provides clear testimony on this subject so that is the way it is, even though I don't understand it and it looks like a contradiction to me. I know you're going to accuse me of "copping-out" but I really see it as humble acquiescence to a greater being whom I cannot fully comprehend.

5/11/2007 9:01:05 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I don't think pride is at the centre of it at all! It's God given curiosity. You see, I don't need to know how God works, but I want to know how God works. He made me that way, and He delights when we explore and discover the universe He made. Do you think the scientists look at the nature of light, shrug and walk away contented? Of course not! They will work and experiment until they understand how it can be both. We need to do the same, it's how we were made. I'm not content to tell someone, "here's the answer. I know it looks like a contradiction, but it's ok, just trust me."

5/11/2007 9:17:49 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

It's been a few days, Arsin. Giving up already?

5/14/2007 8:31:21 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

No, sorry, just busy. I'll post my reply as soon as I think of one...I mean....as soon as I have time ;)

5/16/2007 12:24:56 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Mark, I think we've gotten too far from my original objection and I need to do some course correction. First off, I agree with everything you said in your last post - we are made to be curious and God delights when we discover truths about the amazing world He has made. Finally, I agree that we do a great disservice to people when we answer their questions with "because that's they way it is" or "just have faith." The whole reason I started this site was to appeal to people's minds, logic and reason. I believe this so strongly that I recently added this to the text on the main page. Here's where we disagree - there are times for speculation and discussion and there are times for humble acknowledgment. You see a contradiction in the Bible and feel obligated to resolve it, but you don't have the ability to do it and so you want to diminish God in order to resolve the conflict. I see a contraction and I humbly accept it because I know there are things I cannot understand. I am not "giving up" or "coping out". There are times to reason, explore and discover and there are times to let the Bible speak for itself. The Bible is clear on this issue - both things are true. There is nothing left to discover and I am more than happy to let the Bible speak for itself and point the way. It's only when the Bible is difficult to understand or when the Bible does not speak to an issue that we need to start looking for answers elsewhere. This is not one of those times.

5/17/2007 2:27:30 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

My turn to apologize - I've been swamped this week! Plus, I rather think we've run this one into the ground and are no closer to any agreement. Would you like to call this one a draw and move onto the next topic (whatever that might be?)

5/22/2007 8:36:31 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I found an excellent link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/m/middlekn.htm . It won't solve the debate, but it does show that philosophers have been debating this for eons and even have a name for it - middle knowledge. Enjoy.

7/8/2007 3:48:41 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Yikes, that's some deep philosophy! I confess I did not understand all that, but what I did understand does not seem to resolve anything. It's fine to say that God knows all the possible outcomes of our choices, but it's still assumed that he knows which outcome we will choose. So we're back to where we started. How does this help?

7/8/2007 5:14:37 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Here's how the Jesuits (with whom this line of thinking emerged) envisioned it. Since God knows the outcome of all possible choices, he knows that if I am placed in a specific situation, I will accept the gift of salvation. God then orchestrates that situation, and I freely choose salvation. God gets to know everything, and I still have free will. I know what your objection will be, but I will permit you to have your free will and let you say it, instead of telling you what it will be and spoiling it.

7/9/2007 3:23:43 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Very funny - but not so fast, Arsin. I'm sure you're thinking that I will object that if God is going to manipulate the situation, then we don't have free will. You underestimate me and assume I don't know the difference between freedom and free-will. No one in their right mind thinks we have freedom, regardless of whether or not we have free-will. We are prisoners of our nature, our bodies, our society, etc. Free-will is something else entirely. You see, if I am a prisoner and someone offers me the choice between torture a nice walk in the compound, I still have free-will (though not freedom) even though the jailer knows which of the two outcomes I will choose. Nothing prevents me from choosing the torture, or remaining silent and choosing nothing. That I cannot control the choices which are available to me, nor the responses of my jailer does not take away my ability to choose freely. You're getting confused - either you don't understand Middle Knowledge, or it has no real ability to explain anything. Middle Knowledge tells us that God knows what would happen in the future if you were to choose any of the available options. How can we get from that to knowing which option you will choose? You've jumped from one to the other without explaining anything. In my jailer example, he is assuming that I will choose a walk over torture because it's a safe assumption, but he does not know for certain. I might be feeling combative or confrontational and decide to be tortured to make a point. He cannot be certain; he might be wrong. You are saying that God knows. Basically, you're saying that God knows what we will do, which is right back where we started. I've had some time to think about it, and my real objection is something else. Suppose that God knows that a man will not accept salvation under any circumstances. I have no problem with God knowing such things (for it is different from knowing what a man will choose) How can such a man possibly be free? He was created by God with certain traits and characteristics which combine in a such a way as to have just this effect. However, the man did not choose his personality, his parents, his time and place of birth. If these factors lead him to become a man who can never choose salvation, how can he be said to have free-will?

7/9/2007 4:32:31 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Sorry Mark, but you've taken for granted the very point you're trying to prove. You've assumed that personality, environment and character determine our fate. You've assumed that these things combine to force us into every choice we make and we can do nothing different. In other words, you've assumed we don't have free will. I'm arguing the exact opposite - that despite our experiences, our personality and our character, we are still free moral agents. Those things shape us and affect us, but they do not control us. Now, bare with me and I will explain why I think Middle Knowledge is an effective explanation using your jailer example. By your own admission, the prisoner has free-will. The jailer offers him two choices and can reasonably predict which one he will accept. Why? Because he understands the person and he understand the choices. The better you understand these these, the better able you are to predict what he will do. Is there any level of knowledge I can have about you or your situation which negates your free-will? Can I know you so intimately that I take that away? What if I know you so well that I am 99.9 certain in every situation what you will do given a set of choices? Are you still free? And if I know you so well that the probability of predicting your choice approaches infinity, would you concede that I know what you will do without inhibiting your free-will? That is how well God knows us, and so that is why He knows what we will do before we do it. Yet, the choice is still ours to make. And, keeping your prisoner analogy in mind, if God manipulates our situation in such as way that we freely choose salvation, have me made a free choice?

7/9/2007 8:14:35 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Are you boys having fun yet? I think you both need a hobby ;)

7/9/2007 8:20:21 AM by tom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2007

I agree with Arsindelve. Tom, they both must be friends or something, they have posted other discussion threads where they debate stuff back and forth.

7/11/2007 6:46:31 AM by Corey, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/11/2007

Yes, Mark and I go way back. We don't see each other often these days, but we're old friends. We disagree on some aspects of Christian theology, but that's what makes it so fun. Tom knows this and is just poking fun, eh Tom?

7/11/2007 9:08:16 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Well, Mark, long after I thought this debate was done, I read a book where the author agrees with you and he made me think about it again. In Letters From a Skeptic, Greg Boys flat out says that God does not know the future. He says that the future beyond our choices does not exist yet, and God cannot know something that does not exist. All in all, I find Boyd a little too liberal, and I flat out disagree with him on this issue, but I thought you'd want to know that some people agree with you. In other areas, his book was fantastic and I found it genuinely helpful.

8/16/2007 6:10:53 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

The LORD teaches Salvation has 3 Aspects: First you had to be chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:3 & 4) Second the LORD Jesus Christ had to take all of your sin(s) you have committed and will commit in the future on himself. (1 Pt 2:24; Is 53:4 & 5) Third/lastly this must be applied to your life through and by his Word. (Rom 10: 13-17) After understanding this the next question is; What did any child of God do in any of these 3 elements? What role did a child of God play in any of these 3 elements of salvation? Where was that child of God before the foundation of the world? What say did that child of God have in the decision the LORD Jesus would take away all of h is/er sin? What part did that child of God have in the application of the Word of God to h is/er life? The answer is None whatsoever the LORD does ALL of the work of salvation. Mankind cannot do anything to get h im/er self saved!! Jn 6:29, 44, & 65 is further explaining this. The only freewill that comes into play is the freewill to do other things apart from salvation.

9/4/2007 12:27:01 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

Nowhere in Ephesians or John does it say that certain, select few are "drawn" to God. He draws all of us. Jesus talks often in the Gospel about how He has come to save us all, and that we need to repent. My concern is for visitors to this site who will see your comments and conclude that if they were not "chosen", then they are lost. How far from the truth, and how damaging for people who are seeking the Lord! There IS a choice to be made! Please read what I wrote about this topic here and see that there is a choice to be made from the perspective of the person who has not yet made it. It is only once the choice has been made that we see that the choice was never ours and salvation is made possible by the grace of God alone. For the sake of those who are seeking to know Jesus, we must not place the sign on the outside of the door, where it will discourage people and stop them from entering.

9/4/2007 6:15:54 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I'll read your commentary and get back to you.

9/5/2007 6:22:02 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

You have addressed many subjects in your posting. Realizing I must start somewhere; In reference to your nowhere in Ephesians or John (observation); God says All scripture is given by inspiration of God. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim 3:16). Parallel references are 2 Pet 1:21 and Rom 15:4. There may be others but I understand these to be the best examples. The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God; the gospel. In many places in scripture God shows there are those who are chosen, those who are not chosen and the distinction between them. We are instructed in 1 Cor 2 to compare spiritual things with spiritual. To those visitors (to which you refer) I assert; we dont know who the chosen are - thats Gods business. Our business as a child of God is to be obedient in taking the gospel to every creature. Furthermore (to those visitors) read the Bible. It is the Word of Almighty God. It is God speaking to the one reading it. He tells us in 1 Pet 1:23 His Word brings about salvation (i.e. being born again). God saves those He has chosen and in His time schedule. It is the flesh, the carnal mind that is offended by the sovereignty of Almighty God because of the lust to be able to say I contributed to my salvation. This is man seeking glory that belongs to God; glory that God shares with no one. He tells us this in Isaiah twice (Is 42:8 & 48:11).

9/14/2007 8:27:25 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

Mark - some fascinating and timely information on Dr. William Lane Craig's website pertaining to middle knowledge, free-will and predestination. In particular, have a look at the last few paragraphs - I have pasted some of it here: "Elsewhere I have suggested that God can use His middle knowledge to so providentially order the world that anyone who rejects Gods general revelation in nature and conscience and never hears the Gospel would not have believed in the Gospel even if he had heard it (see Scholarly Articles: Christian Particularism; Popular Articles: Christianity and Other Faiths: How Can Christ Be the Only Way to God?). People who never hear the Gospel will be judged on the basis of their response to Gods general revelation, and those who fail to respond to it and are damned cannot complain that if only they had heard the Gospel they would have responded to it and been saved." http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=q_and_a

9/24/2007 2:15:06 PM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think God made a choice when he gave us free will. Freedom, even if that freedom resulted in defiance of him was his ultimate gift to humans. To think he would then diminish the gift by keeping knowledge and or power to know what we would do seems absurd. Humans are free to choose. We need to make wise choices

11/11/2007 8:47:58 AM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

Dick, Welcome to the site, and thanks for joining this discussion. It's great to have you on board. Your opinion is certainly widespread, in fact I would say that what you wrote would pretty accurately describe my opinion not too long ago. As you can tell from this discussion, Mark feels exactly the same way that you do, so you're in good company. After thinking, praying and studying this issue for quite some time, I've decided that I beleive the following two concepts are both true. 1) We have free will. Our actions have real consequences and we are morally and ethically responsible for our choices. 2) God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. God has known this since before the beginning of time. It seems these two statements are as close to contradictory as we can get! But over the years, I've decided that they only seem contradictory to us because of our limited ability to apprehend time. I am convinced that from God's perspective, not only are these two things possible, they are true. Since we are limited by time and God is not, things which seems absurd and incomprehensible to us are totally possible for Him (the Trinity is another example of this). I know this seems like a cop-out, and I am uncomfortable with the explanation "God can do it" without being able to explain it, but that is inevitably where my study and prayer has lead me. Dr. Craig's website above is an excellent read if you have the time.

11/11/2007 9:09:55 AM by arsindelve, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries