Well, we might as well get into it. Mark and I have been debating this topic for quite some time (ever since it was posted as a question) so now that the forums are open, I thought we should take our debate here where everyone can benefit and/or join in. I'll let Mark open the debate, since I had the last word.

4/26/2007 6:44:59 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Well, for the benefit of everyone else, let me explain what we're debating. We know that we have free-will and that our choices are freely made and that they have real consequence. However, some people claim that God knows what we are going to do before we do it. If that is true, then we don't really have free will. You see, if I know that you are going to skip work tomorrow, then the choice is set for you. You essentially have no choice, you have to skip work because I have already seen it. So, free-will and foreknowledge are a contradiction - one of those cannot be true. My best guess is that God does not know what we are going to do before we do it. It's a surprise to Him. He reacts to our choices in order to bring about His master plan for the world, but He is as surprised as the rest of us and He is constantly coping and dealing with things as they happen. I don't like saying that, but I like saying we don't have free-will even less. As Neo replied to Morpheus in the Matrix, "I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life." I see his point.

4/26/2007 12:24:16 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

It's only a contradiction as it applies to us. In the context of God, it's not a contradiction. It is possible for both things to be true for him, even if they cannot both be true for us. As my ten-year old says any time I say "that's not possible", he quickly replies "God can do it!"

4/26/2007 1:06:53 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Read what Lewis says about this in "The Problem of Pain." A contradiction is nonsense, and it remains nonsense even if we bring God into the equation. In other words, we cannot make a contradiction true just by saying, "God can do it." For example, something cannot be both less than 12 and more than 12. It makes no sense to say, "God can make something which is more than 12 and less than 12." It's still a contradiction, and even God cannot make a contradiction true. It's still nonsense, as Lewis put it.

4/26/2007 1:18:45 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Then God made a rule that it is a surprise to him what we do, but that is his rule and then he can change that rule anytime he wants to but if he changes that rule then he must change other rules he put into place which would change the whole world. It is the same thing about Jesus on the cross. He could have taken him down from the cross but if he did that then that would have changed the prophesies before and that would mess everything up. People should just know that God lives by his own pre-set rules and that you can't begin to figure God out.

4/26/2007 1:19:32 PM by Julie, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2007

One more post and then I'll drop it until tomorrow. Lewis is right about contradictions and nonsense, but that's not what I'm talking about. Julie is pretty close with her post. I'm not saying that God can make a contradiction true, what I'm saying is that what is impossible for us is possible for Him, and therefore not a contradiction for Him. Let me give you an example. It would be a contradiction for me to say "I am in Paris and I am in London." Impossible. I am either in one place or the other. Yet, God can say this and it's not a contradiction because God does not have this limitation. The same is true about time and free-will - God does not have the limitations that we do. We are bound in the "steam" of time which flows only one way, but God is outside of that stream. When someone says God is eternal, it doesn't really mean that He exists from the beginning of time to the end of time. It means He exists outside of time. Since He is outside of it, the rules that bind us do not bind Him. Let me try this example. There are a series of cubes, and you are permitted to hold only one at a time. Before you can hold another, you have to give the first one back. Suppose someone told you that they were holding two cubes at once. You would say "impossible" because that is outside the rules that you know. But those rules have been imposed on you. They need not necessarily apply to everyone. God made the rules of time, he does not have to obey them. Ok, back to work for both of us, lunch is over.

4/26/2007 1:38:38 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think your answer is a bit of a cop-out. Philosophically, there is no difference between saying "God exists outside of time" and your ten year old saying "God can do it." These responses don't contribute anything to the argument, and so I think they are exactly what Lewis is talking about. We live in this world with these rules, and so whatever is a contradiction to us is a contradiction, period. You can't resolve the contradiction by appealing to some other set of rules which don't apply to us. That's cheating! When God interacts with us, He has to appeal to lowest common denominator (us), which means our rules apply to Him in that context. Whatever rules apply to Him when he is outside our context is immaterial. So, I say again, it has to be one or the other - he doesn't know the future, or we don't really have free will. Can you resolve that without "cheating?"

5/1/2007 11:10:32 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

What you call "rules" are nothing more than your understanding of world in which you live and your ability to apprehend it and perceive it. They are not "universal", and violating the rules does not necessarily constitute a contradiction. What you call a "rule" (that nothing can have free-will and know the future) is no such thing, it's simply your inability to imagine the thing. I cannot imagine a four-dimensional object in my mind, yet mathematicians and physicists use n-dimensional objects in their equations all the time. I cannot imagine a being which is free and whose future is known. Big deal. Not being able to imagine it does not make it impossible. Can you truly understand what it means to be infinite or eternal? Of course not, yet you do not deny God these qualities, do you?

5/1/2007 8:39:45 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

This is a very slippery slope, Arsin, and I think you want to be careful on your way down. We cannot pick and choose when we will try to understand and explain God's mysteries and when will throw up our hands and say, "our rules do not apply" or "we can never understand". To give an example, we explain to non-Christians that there is pain and suffering in the world because we are free. God wants freely given, un-coerced love and so he makes us free. That freedom permits us to sin, and sin is at the root of most the pain and suffering. Now, I know you agree with this since that is the essence of your article on suffering. Lots of people respond to this dilemma by asking, "Why can't God make us free and not able to sin?" And what do we tell them? "God can't, it's a contradiction!" You can't have it both ways. If we cannot appeal to the cop-out in one case, we cannot apply it in the other.

5/4/2007 8:32:58 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Mark, if I were relying on my own understanding to decide what God can do or will do, then I would be on slippery ground, indeed. The fact is, I know what God can and can't do (or more precisely, will and will not do) because He tells me. The Bible tells us everything we need to know on this subject. The Bible tells me that God knows everything including the future and also affirms that we have free will. That's the way it is, no contradiction, end of story. Period. I'm not trying to apply the criteria to some situations and not others. I'm letting God speak for Himself and then I take Him at His word.

5/4/2007 11:37:32 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Appealing to the Bible is just another kind of cop-out. The whole point of theology is to try to understand the Bible. We began debating free-will and foreknowledge precisely because they are both affirmed by the Bible. By you saying, "because the Bible says so" defeats the purpose of theology, which is to better understand the Bible - so we're back where we started with nothing to show for it.

5/7/2007 3:02:26 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I disagree, Mark. The purpose of Theology is not to "understand the Bible." It might seem like a subtle difference, but the point of Theology is to categorize and study what it contains in order to clarify doctrine. I think it's helpful at times to debate and discuss what the Bible contains, but I don't think it's our goal to understand it all. In this instance, it's perfectly clear that God gave us free will and that He knows the future. There is sufficient support for both of these precepts in scripture and so I think, theologically, our job is done and we can close the book. You can debate how these things works together, and strive to understand them, but that is philosophy, not theology. Therefore, I don't think it's a cop out whatsoever to say, "God has spoken" and to declare the issue closed. In the words of Dwight Moody, "I am glad there are things in the Bible I do not understand. If I could take that book up and read it as I would any other book, I might think I could write a book like that."

5/7/2007 6:38:29 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I'm not really concerned with whether we're debating theology or philosophy. Someone asked the question and so we're trying to get to the bottom of it. You really have not ever answered my question - why do we say with some contradictions, "God can" and with some, we say "God can't?" How can you explain that? (and don't keep going back around in circles saying, "Because the Bible says so!")

5/9/2007 10:48:31 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Yes, but do we need to understand every nuance of it in order to provide an answer? Let me give you a scientific analogy. Scientists have sufficient evidence to know that light sometimes behaves like particles and sometimes like waves. How can it be both? No one really knows, but that is where the evidence leads, and so that is the way it is. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I think's it arrogant to require a deep understanding of everything about God's nature before you can accept it. Surely, there are going to be things we cannot explain. I think we need humilty. The Bible provides clear testimony on this subject so that is the way it is, even though I don't understand it and it looks like a contradiction to me. I know you're going to accuse me of "copping-out" but I really see it as humble acquiescence to a greater being whom I cannot fully comprehend.

5/11/2007 9:01:05 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I don't think pride is at the centre of it at all! It's God given curiosity. You see, I don't need to know how God works, but I want to know how God works. He made me that way, and He delights when we explore and discover the universe He made. Do you think the scientists look at the nature of light, shrug and walk away contented? Of course not! They will work and experiment until they understand how it can be both. We need to do the same, it's how we were made. I'm not content to tell someone, "here's the answer. I know it looks like a contradiction, but it's ok, just trust me."

5/11/2007 9:17:49 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

It's been a few days, Arsin. Giving up already?

5/14/2007 8:31:21 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

No, sorry, just busy. I'll post my reply as soon as I think of one...I mean....as soon as I have time ;)

5/16/2007 12:24:56 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Mark, I think we've gotten too far from my original objection and I need to do some course correction. First off, I agree with everything you said in your last post - we are made to be curious and God delights when we discover truths about the amazing world He has made. Finally, I agree that we do a great disservice to people when we answer their questions with "because that's they way it is" or "just have faith." The whole reason I started this site was to appeal to people's minds, logic and reason. I believe this so strongly that I recently added this to the text on the main page. Here's where we disagree - there are times for speculation and discussion and there are times for humble acknowledgment. You see a contradiction in the Bible and feel obligated to resolve it, but you don't have the ability to do it and so you want to diminish God in order to resolve the conflict. I see a contraction and I humbly accept it because I know there are things I cannot understand. I am not "giving up" or "coping out". There are times to reason, explore and discover and there are times to let the Bible speak for itself. The Bible is clear on this issue - both things are true. There is nothing left to discover and I am more than happy to let the Bible speak for itself and point the way. It's only when the Bible is difficult to understand or when the Bible does not speak to an issue that we need to start looking for answers elsewhere. This is not one of those times.

5/17/2007 2:27:30 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

My turn to apologize - I've been swamped this week! Plus, I rather think we've run this one into the ground and are no closer to any agreement. Would you like to call this one a draw and move onto the next topic (whatever that might be?)

5/22/2007 8:36:31 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I found an excellent link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/m/middlekn.htm . It won't solve the debate, but it does show that philosophers have been debating this for eons and even have a name for it - middle knowledge. Enjoy.

7/8/2007 3:48:41 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Yikes, that's some deep philosophy! I confess I did not understand all that, but what I did understand does not seem to resolve anything. It's fine to say that God knows all the possible outcomes of our choices, but it's still assumed that he knows which outcome we will choose. So we're back to where we started. How does this help?

7/8/2007 5:14:37 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Here's how the Jesuits (with whom this line of thinking emerged) envisioned it. Since God knows the outcome of all possible choices, he knows that if I am placed in a specific situation, I will accept the gift of salvation. God then orchestrates that situation, and I freely choose salvation. God gets to know everything, and I still have free will. I know what your objection will be, but I will permit you to have your free will and let you say it, instead of telling you what it will be and spoiling it.

7/9/2007 3:23:43 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Very funny - but not so fast, Arsin. I'm sure you're thinking that I will object that if God is going to manipulate the situation, then we don't have free will. You underestimate me and assume I don't know the difference between freedom and free-will. No one in their right mind thinks we have freedom, regardless of whether or not we have free-will. We are prisoners of our nature, our bodies, our society, etc. Free-will is something else entirely. You see, if I am a prisoner and someone offers me the choice between torture a nice walk in the compound, I still have free-will (though not freedom) even though the jailer knows which of the two outcomes I will choose. Nothing prevents me from choosing the torture, or remaining silent and choosing nothing. That I cannot control the choices which are available to me, nor the responses of my jailer does not take away my ability to choose freely. You're getting confused - either you don't understand Middle Knowledge, or it has no real ability to explain anything. Middle Knowledge tells us that God knows what would happen in the future if you were to choose any of the available options. How can we get from that to knowing which option you will choose? You've jumped from one to the other without explaining anything. In my jailer example, he is assuming that I will choose a walk over torture because it's a safe assumption, but he does not know for certain. I might be feeling combative or confrontational and decide to be tortured to make a point. He cannot be certain; he might be wrong. You are saying that God knows. Basically, you're saying that God knows what we will do, which is right back where we started. I've had some time to think about it, and my real objection is something else. Suppose that God knows that a man will not accept salvation under any circumstances. I have no problem with God knowing such things (for it is different from knowing what a man will choose) How can such a man possibly be free? He was created by God with certain traits and characteristics which combine in a such a way as to have just this effect. However, the man did not choose his personality, his parents, his time and place of birth. If these factors lead him to become a man who can never choose salvation, how can he be said to have free-will?

7/9/2007 4:32:31 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Sorry Mark, but you've taken for granted the very point you're trying to prove. You've assumed that personality, environment and character determine our fate. You've assumed that these things combine to force us into every choice we make and we can do nothing different. In other words, you've assumed we don't have free will. I'm arguing the exact opposite - that despite our experiences, our personality and our character, we are still free moral agents. Those things shape us and affect us, but they do not control us. Now, bare with me and I will explain why I think Middle Knowledge is an effective explanation using your jailer example. By your own admission, the prisoner has free-will. The jailer offers him two choices and can reasonably predict which one he will accept. Why? Because he understands the person and he understand the choices. The better you understand these these, the better able you are to predict what he will do. Is there any level of knowledge I can have about you or your situation which negates your free-will? Can I know you so intimately that I take that away? What if I know you so well that I am 99.9 certain in every situation what you will do given a set of choices? Are you still free? And if I know you so well that the probability of predicting your choice approaches infinity, would you concede that I know what you will do without inhibiting your free-will? That is how well God knows us, and so that is why He knows what we will do before we do it. Yet, the choice is still ours to make. And, keeping your prisoner analogy in mind, if God manipulates our situation in such as way that we freely choose salvation, have me made a free choice?

7/9/2007 8:14:35 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Are you boys having fun yet? I think you both need a hobby ;)

7/9/2007 8:20:21 AM by tom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2007

I agree with Arsindelve. Tom, they both must be friends or something, they have posted other discussion threads where they debate stuff back and forth.

7/11/2007 6:46:31 AM by Corey, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/11/2007

Yes, Mark and I go way back. We don't see each other often these days, but we're old friends. We disagree on some aspects of Christian theology, but that's what makes it so fun. Tom knows this and is just poking fun, eh Tom?

7/11/2007 9:08:16 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Well, Mark, long after I thought this debate was done, I read a book where the author agrees with you and he made me think about it again. In Letters From a Skeptic, Greg Boys flat out says that God does not know the future. He says that the future beyond our choices does not exist yet, and God cannot know something that does not exist. All in all, I find Boyd a little too liberal, and I flat out disagree with him on this issue, but I thought you'd want to know that some people agree with you. In other areas, his book was fantastic and I found it genuinely helpful.

8/16/2007 6:10:53 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

The LORD teaches Salvation has 3 Aspects: First you had to be chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:3 & 4) Second the LORD Jesus Christ had to take all of your sin(s) you have committed and will commit in the future on himself. (1 Pt 2:24; Is 53:4 & 5) Third/lastly this must be applied to your life through and by his Word. (Rom 10: 13-17) After understanding this the next question is; What did any child of God do in any of these 3 elements? What role did a child of God play in any of these 3 elements of salvation? Where was that child of God before the foundation of the world? What say did that child of God have in the decision the LORD Jesus would take away all of h is/er sin? What part did that child of God have in the application of the Word of God to h is/er life? The answer is None whatsoever the LORD does ALL of the work of salvation. Mankind cannot do anything to get h im/er self saved!! Jn 6:29, 44, & 65 is further explaining this. The only freewill that comes into play is the freewill to do other things apart from salvation.

9/4/2007 12:27:01 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

Nowhere in Ephesians or John does it say that certain, select few are "drawn" to God. He draws all of us. Jesus talks often in the Gospel about how He has come to save us all, and that we need to repent. My concern is for visitors to this site who will see your comments and conclude that if they were not "chosen", then they are lost. How far from the truth, and how damaging for people who are seeking the Lord! There IS a choice to be made! Please read what I wrote about this topic here and see that there is a choice to be made from the perspective of the person who has not yet made it. It is only once the choice has been made that we see that the choice was never ours and salvation is made possible by the grace of God alone. For the sake of those who are seeking to know Jesus, we must not place the sign on the outside of the door, where it will discourage people and stop them from entering.

9/4/2007 6:15:54 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

I'll read your commentary and get back to you.

9/5/2007 6:22:02 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

You have addressed many subjects in your posting. Realizing I must start somewhere; In reference to your nowhere in Ephesians or John (observation); God says All scripture is given by inspiration of God. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim 3:16). Parallel references are 2 Pet 1:21 and Rom 15:4. There may be others but I understand these to be the best examples. The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God; the gospel. In many places in scripture God shows there are those who are chosen, those who are not chosen and the distinction between them. We are instructed in 1 Cor 2 to compare spiritual things with spiritual. To those visitors (to which you refer) I assert; we dont know who the chosen are - thats Gods business. Our business as a child of God is to be obedient in taking the gospel to every creature. Furthermore (to those visitors) read the Bible. It is the Word of Almighty God. It is God speaking to the one reading it. He tells us in 1 Pet 1:23 His Word brings about salvation (i.e. being born again). God saves those He has chosen and in His time schedule. It is the flesh, the carnal mind that is offended by the sovereignty of Almighty God because of the lust to be able to say I contributed to my salvation. This is man seeking glory that belongs to God; glory that God shares with no one. He tells us this in Isaiah twice (Is 42:8 & 48:11).

9/14/2007 8:27:25 PM by RobertJ, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/3/2007

Mark - some fascinating and timely information on Dr. William Lane Craig's website pertaining to middle knowledge, free-will and predestination. In particular, have a look at the last few paragraphs - I have pasted some of it here: "Elsewhere I have suggested that God can use His middle knowledge to so providentially order the world that anyone who rejects Gods general revelation in nature and conscience and never hears the Gospel would not have believed in the Gospel even if he had heard it (see Scholarly Articles: Christian Particularism; Popular Articles: Christianity and Other Faiths: How Can Christ Be the Only Way to God?). People who never hear the Gospel will be judged on the basis of their response to Gods general revelation, and those who fail to respond to it and are damned cannot complain that if only they had heard the Gospel they would have responded to it and been saved." http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=q_and_a

9/24/2007 2:15:06 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think God made a choice when he gave us free will. Freedom, even if that freedom resulted in defiance of him was his ultimate gift to humans. To think he would then diminish the gift by keeping knowledge and or power to know what we would do seems absurd. Humans are free to choose. We need to make wise choices

11/11/2007 8:47:58 AM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

Dick, Welcome to the site, and thanks for joining this discussion. It's great to have you on board. Your opinion is certainly widespread, in fact I would say that what you wrote would pretty accurately describe my opinion not too long ago. As you can tell from this discussion, Mark feels exactly the same way that you do, so you're in good company. After thinking, praying and studying this issue for quite some time, I've decided that I beleive the following two concepts are both true. 1) We have free will. Our actions have real consequences and we are morally and ethically responsible for our choices. 2) God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. God has known this since before the beginning of time. It seems these two statements are as close to contradictory as we can get! But over the years, I've decided that they only seem contradictory to us because of our limited ability to apprehend time. I am convinced that from God's perspective, not only are these two things possible, they are true. Since we are limited by time and God is not, things which seems absurd and incomprehensible to us are totally possible for Him (the Trinity is another example of this). I know this seems like a cop-out, and I am uncomfortable with the explanation "God can do it" without being able to explain it, but that is inevitably where my study and prayer has lead me. Dr. Craig's website above is an excellent read if you have the time.

11/11/2007 9:09:55 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

We are in control of our lives to a certain extent let's have some understanding through God's word. God knows all and God knows what our choices are He's God and has seen how things will end that's why we have prophecy. God let's us have free will to make choices just cause God knows the choice we will make does not make us not have free will. God is able to do exceedingly above all we ask or think. God tells us the right choices to make and it's up to us God does not force His will on us. We have free will and God knows our thinking. It's all in God's word the bible.

12/10/2007 4:52:03 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Wisdom - That's a pretty good way to summarize everything we've said on this forum, and you're dead on - "God let's us have free will to make choices just cause God knows the choice we will make does not make us not have free will. " Thanks for your post, and welcome to the site.

12/10/2007 8:32:02 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

arsindelve God bless you thanks for the welcome I see the comments are very long winded to confusion. God said many folks are very confused about God and the devil and man's wisdom has taken folks far from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3 I love the Matrix it has so much revelation about God.

12/11/2007 9:03:59 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

This is much too interesting for me not to add my own 2 cents :). I think it is pertinent to ask if Jesus had free will since he was fully God yet fully human. I believe that it should be clear that he did have free will. Could he have sinned when Satan tempted him in the desert? Yes. Did God know if he was going to sin when he allowed Satan to tempt him? Yes. I don't really see how these contradict.

12/13/2007 11:48:31 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

The bible says Jesus knew no sin when we try to understand God's word with our own understanding the bible is very contradicting and confusing. That's why we must understand that God's word is spiritual and we must understand it spiritually. Understanding God's word spiritually we know that God's word is always true. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth. By faith we believe.

12/14/2007 8:40:40 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Xfrogger - Welcome to the discussion and to the website. It's great to have you here. I love your example of Jesus to make this point! You're completely right. I used to think the two were contradictory, but I don't anymore. Like you, I see no reason why God cannot do both. But let me use an analogy to show you why most people do think this way (and you'll see it's a poor analogy) Imagine I create a lottery machine that is able to come up with any six random numbers it chooses. I make the claim that this machine is "completely free", which is to say that it's free to pick any number it wants and no one can influence it in any way. So, I go ahead and let it pick 6 numbers. Then, I pull a sealed envelope from my pocket and reveal that I had correctly predicted and previously written down what six numbers it would choose. You would cry foul! You would insist that the machine was obviously rigged, or that I was able to control it in some way. If I can predict the numbers every time, then there is no way that machine is "free". It obviously is programmed to follow some pattern or sequence (in which case it's not free) or I am tampering with it to get the results I want (in which case it is also not free). So, people reason that if God knows what we are going to do, we cannot possible be free to do it. Great analogy, isn't it.....except...... God is not like us! He is omnipotent and omniscient, we are not. No human being can truly predict the future (without divine revelation) so if someone claims to be able to do it, of course there are some shenanigans going on. But why would we ever place that limitation on God? He is so much more than we are, he is beyond and outside of time itself. So, the analogy is a poor one and doesn't work to describe God. There is more than enough evidence in the Bible to tell us that God really can make us free and responsible, yet also knows what we will do before we do it. I used to be uncomfortable with it, but I'm not anymore. One of these days we'll finally convince Mark and Dick, so I'm glad to see I have some support!

12/14/2007 9:00:51 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Is God interested in each and every decision each one of us makes. Does his omnipotence carry to every minute detail of our lives or his omnipotence more generalized? Does God look at the forest or the trees?

12/29/2007 11:45:05 AM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

Yes God is interested in all our decisions and knows all. God wants all our heart and soul and desires to be with us at all times His word says God never leaves us or forsakes us. God knows the number of hairs on our head. God wants to be one with us unity in God pleases God. God sees the forest and each individual tree. We are trees to God that bring forth fruit in our season.

12/31/2007 8:25:55 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Dick - I think it has to be specific and complete knowledge - every single detail, right down to the atomic level and beyond. God knows every decision that we will make, large or small. He knew I would make three typos in this post, but that I would go back and correct them. (Only three I hope!) Paul tells us in Colossians that Jesus "...holds all things together" (1:17) and in order to do that, He would need to be aware of all the little details, as well as the big plane.

12/31/2007 10:58:23 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

When we are in agreement with God and His ways God gives us the liberty to do some things that marvel God and it always has to do with faith. Remember the centurion that marveled Jesus by faith? We can change God's mind by our faith.

12/31/2007 11:13:29 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

God is a spirit and understanding that we know for sure that in the spirit realm things happen there before it happens in the natural realm where we can see with our natural eyes. When we see with our natural eyes it is only for ourself. We can not see for another person naturally but spiritually when we can cause then we see with the eyes of God in a realm that can marvel God. This was done when the centurion came to God not for himself but for someone else this centurion knew he could not help his servant in the natural but knew that if Jesus spoke the word in spirit his servant would be healed. This marvelled God why? Cause this centurion knew about the spirit realm power and acted on on it.

1/2/2008 12:16:35 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I believe that when God created man, the most precious gift he gave us was freedom of choice unemcumbered by his control. One can argue into infnity whether Gods knowledge of our choices affects the choices we make. I would think in some instances it does and in some it doesn't, but I do believe, that we surprise God with our choices and in some instances shock him. By we I mean all of humanity, over all of time. I believe that somehow we became separated from God, and God being a just God requires that we find our way back to him, and that we are doing this through all of human history and will continue to do it until we finally get back to where we started in a oneness with God. One day all of humanity will be at a oneness with God. Individually if we do our part, we find that oneness at death. God provides humanity with tools and help on our journey. Our inquisitive mind, the many prophets, and Jesus. It is going to be a long process, but God knows that we will make it back, but I don't think he knows where or when. He has left that up to us.

1/2/2008 4:25:00 PM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

God knows when and where we are and deals with us on a level far beyond our understanding but God reveals things to us by His spirit. God is so good He lets us grow and seek and discover more and more about God. Some things are going on that God does not allow us to deal with for God knows what we are able to bear. Gods greatest gift to us is Jesus. If man's greatest need was education God would have sent a educator.

1/2/2008 5:35:00 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Hi...I'm new here...a very interesting discussion...My question was similar, since God knows who will accept His Son Jesus Christ as Saviour and who will reject Him - why make those people who are going to reject Him anyway? There would be no lost souls then! So, I think we were given the choice to even exist! God showed us the prize awaiting us! He knows what we will do here and what our final choice will be but He in no way determines the choices by His knowledge. Cheers!

1/7/2008 8:15:33 AM by Sandya, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/7/2008

God deals with us on our level and wants us to renew our minds to know God better. Yes even though God knows all our choices we still have a choice. We can choose to sin be good or whatever we want we are not robots. God says his sheep know his voice God knows who will come and who will not that's why we have God's word it is prophecy of what is to come we are seeing God's word manifesting everyday.

1/7/2008 8:46:06 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Is is possible that God made the choice of allowing us to make choices outside of his knowledge? Does it diminish God if we can make choices he does not know? For me it does not, but if he knows everything we are going to do, and we do it I guess I can live with that too. Someday we will know. God Bless you all. I wonder if he know I would say that. Peace.

1/8/2008 4:13:20 PM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

Dick, Your last comment cracked me up! I don't think God WOULD allow us to make choices outside his knowledge, but COULD He? Well, that just breaks my brain and so I won't attempt to answer. It reminds me of the question we asked as children, "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" Either way you answer it, you come up with something he can't do. C.S Lewis discussed this in his books, and decided such questions were nonsense and had no answer, but who knows? You're right, though, someday we will know. Maybe from time to time, in the midst of such discussions we lose focus. What really matters is our relationship with our Lord Jesus. Beyond that, it can be fun to discuss, but it's not worth worrying about.

1/9/2008 7:47:13 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I am sorry Dickport but I can not agree with the concept of God not knowing all of our choices. It detracts from what we know of Him from His Word - all knowing, all present. I think "all" says it all :) excuse the pun!

1/10/2008 6:26:06 AM by Sandya, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/7/2008

I think all these discussions must make God smile.

1/10/2008 10:27:46 AM by dickport, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/11/2007

As finite beings, it is impossible to understand God because he is infinite. We can try to describe God using things from our world like "father" or "loving" or "majestic" but they can not even come close to describing the magnificence of God. I think the reason that we are soooo confused about the co-existence of freewill and foreknowledge is that we simply are not wired understand it. However, it is fun to talk about :).

1/12/2008 2:53:24 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I'm confused as to whether the debate is foreknowledge vs. free will OR predestination vs. free will. Foreknowledge implies that God knows what we are going to do before we do it. Predestination means God meant for us to do whatever it is we are going to do. This is the case of those who are the called of God. The Word says for those He called he did predestined (Romans 8:30). He knew the end before the begining. God says in Jeremiah 29:11, "For I know the plans I have for you...". Jeremiah was "called" and "chosen". He does not address the plans we have for ourselves. I think this is because once we are born again into the Kingdom of God, our hearts are regenerated so that our "footsteps are ordered" by the Lord. Whereas foreknowledge is just God knowing ahead of time regardless of anythng else. This does not mean He "ordered" (predestined) or "allowed" (free will). He just knew beforehand. How else can He be an all-knowing God?

1/20/2008 3:48:31 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs Piggy - To summarize this long discussion (which really has been run into the ground, if you want my opinion) is whether or not God knowing the future negates free-will. Some people have said that God could not possibly know what we are going to do, otherwise we would not be free to do it. I sympathize with this point and I understand it (see my analogy of the lottery machine above) but I disagree with it. My opinion is that God does know what we will do, and that in no way invalidates our free-will. It may seem like a contradiction, but that is just our limited perspective. There is more than enough evidence for this position in scripture, and so that is what I must believe, even if I don't fully understand. I suppose a third possible position is that we really don't have free- will, but I don't think anyone in this discussion believes that, as far as I know.

1/20/2008 5:46:04 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thank you for clarification. Yes, we have free will and yes, God knows everything beforehand. That's why we can trust Him with everything.

1/20/2008 6:51:12 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I admire anyone who can worship something they believe is greater than themselves but what if what you are worshiping is based on lies and injustice?

3/17/2008 3:47:45 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

This is where faith comes in many folks worship or live their lives based on something they would not give their life for. I believe what I believe by faith and I put my whole life into to not just for me but for God's will.

3/17/2008 3:59:09 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Hey wisdom, I can respect that, but when does faith become ignorance? When you blindly believe something, don't you have to question the powers and authorities at the top of the institutions? I agree with you, that you can communicate directly to God personally, but what is the need for the middle man? The Organization is corrupt, not God itself.

3/17/2008 4:13:44 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

True that many churches are false and many people are deceiving folks just as God says in the bible. God says that we are destroyed for lack of knowledge about HIM. You have to study God's word and not base your faith on what man does or thinks. God's word can only be truely understood spiritually. One who truely understands God will bring lost souls to God.

3/17/2008 4:21:58 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Do you consider Jesus to be God? Or God's only begotten son? What is your specific Definition of God. You make some valid points.

3/17/2008 4:27:09 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

If you think that the organization is corrupt then you need to find a different church. There are churches that claim to be of God but aren't. Christianity is built around facts (as well as faith). History confirms that Jesus walked the earth and was crucified. No one found his body. Sodom and Gomorrah were real cities that were burned by burning sulphur. The list goes on. I understand that apologetics does not appeal to everyone. However, there are ample facts and proof for anyone who choses to accept them.

3/17/2008 4:32:24 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

God is a spirit and Jesus is God in the flesh born of a virgin I believe that by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Many folks base their faith on many things but God's word and they are in error. I believe that the bible is God's word and when God's word is truely in us it brings forth unity. God love unity we are the body and Christ is the head.

3/17/2008 4:41:55 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Hey Frogger, I agree with with you that one should search for truth and when they feel mislead by the organization they should move on. I was just curious as to ask, What solid facts is Christianity based upon other than stories and faith? Although the Sodom and Gomorrah story is very intriguing. Just a brief examantion of this quote by you would see the contradiction in your thinking. "History confirms that Jesus walked the earth and was crucified. No one found his body."

3/17/2008 4:43:04 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Jesus rose 3 days later after he was crucified as it was prophesied to happen. Jesus is in heaven now and has all power and will be coming back again. Jesus ascended into heaven after he showed himself to many folks to help their faith that he raised himself from the death.

3/17/2008 4:46:48 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Interesting Wisdom, I enjoyed your poetic form of explanation. I respect that you believe that God's word is in the Bible, but wasn't the Bible originally written in Hebrew? And why the need for the King James Version? It seems audacious to me to take the holy words of God and re-arrange them, I believe that if these were the original words of God, then they should be left as is, in there original state, so the different forms of interpretation can be minimal at best.. I would like to hear your comments on these thoughts.

3/17/2008 4:50:13 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

That is an inspirational story, that would take faith to believe. I see Jesus as a good man, who was falsified and made of divinity by the churches to gain power over man. When you look at the historical and astrological evidence, all we can really say for sure is that Jesus was a man from Nazareth. The coincidences of the rising and falling sun and stars and the many different religions pre-dating christianity should hopefully open peoples eyes to the possibility of Jesus as just a man. A Good man at that.

3/17/2008 4:54:39 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Well since I don't speak hebrew I am glad it has been translated I especially like the King James version. Remember this you will not understand God at all by facts it is only by faith which is spiritual you gain wisdom and understanding. God's word is foolishness to them who try to understand it in the natural. Everything I say to you is God's word. God says in the bible that in the times we are in their will be many folks that will mock God and will not believe. Jesus even marvelled at folks unbelief even when he did miracles in front of them they had the facts right in front of them that a man was blind and could now see or that a cripple man could walk by Jesus miracles and they still could not believe cause they had no faith. Facts are in the natural understanding faith is a spiritual understanding. If you want me to show you scriptures I will be glad to.

3/17/2008 4:58:19 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

If you are intrigued by this discussion, you should read a Case for Faith and a Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He is going to be clearer and more eloquent than me. Of course no argument is bulletproof but he makes many good and logical arguments for faith. I will open the books up again and share some of it with you later today if you are interested.

3/17/2008 5:04:14 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I agree it is convienent that the Bible has been translated into english as well as other languages, but there is a lot of meaning that gets lost in translation and when reviewed closely, you realize there has been omissions and additions to the Bible. Why would you ever omit the word of God? I would not need for you to show me scriptures because they are based on Man's thoughts not God's. If faith is the spiritual understanding of God, why would you need the scriptures at all? I respect faith, I really do, that is your personal communication with God in every form. It's when man tries to enforce doctrine over other man, thats when injustice comes into play.

3/17/2008 5:07:01 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Thank you Xfrogger I will look into that, I would like to hear more about Lee Strobel's book. I Don't disagree with faith, I think my questions devolve from authorities pushing guilt and control over the masses of people, who blindly believe. That is there right, but I believe that it is also the right when you see injustice to try and help, even if the person being persecuted doesn't necessarily believe there is no harm done against them. I believe int he individuals right to faith and religion. But the truths behind many of todays religions when uncovered, can be very horrifying.

3/17/2008 5:10:06 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

You misunderstand my faith is based on God's word and nothing else. There is no faith without God's word.

3/17/2008 5:29:15 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Oh, I see. But if God's word is interpreted by Man, isn't it more Man's word than God's? Shouldn't God's word be left as is and then the communication with God be left to faith and prayer, however you define prayer.

3/17/2008 5:34:49 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

The bible talks about in the these last days there will be many false prophets that will decieve many and lead them into destruction.

3/17/2008 5:35:06 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I hope you don't believe that I'm a false prophet. I just think it's healthy to question why we believe in the things we do so blindly. I think it's unhealthy for people to allow themselves to be manipulated by the thought of destruction and to be afraid to engage and think for themselves. Worship, believe, love, but don't be afraid. Fear is the power of the power mongers.

3/17/2008 5:41:15 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

This is how Eve was decieved in the garden by Satan by trying to say God's word does not mean what it is saying. You miss it all my friend cause you don't discern God's word spiritually. Great thing about God is He gives us choices and we can choose to believe or not we are not forced to do anything we have free will.

3/17/2008 5:42:56 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Yes we do have free will. That is the beauty of life, to not allow ourselves to be indoctrinated under any other man's beliefs. I respect your thoughts, but I disagree, especially with the analogy of you as eve and me as a serpent Satan. I just merely want to discusls and bring to light questions I have been pondering on for a few years. After noticing the hypocrisy of organizations and institutions that preach love and understanding and faith but will shoot down and try to wipe out any form of belief that differs from their rhetoric.

3/17/2008 5:47:14 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

You are just a unbeliever and you lean to your own understanding called man's wisdom which changes over the years but God's word always stays the same it was here before we were born and will be here when we die. My speaking is not with enticing words of man's wisdom but it is in demonstration of the spirit and of power that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man but in the power of God.

3/17/2008 5:49:04 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I need to interject here. I have been watching this discussion unfold for a while and I think a line has been crossed. I have to take issue with Wisdom's comment, "You are just an unbeliever." I don't think you meant any disrespect with this comment, but if I put myself in the shoes of someone who does not yet believe in Christ, I can see how it might be taken the wrong way. It could come across as condescending, and the last thing I want on this website is for anyone who is honestly seeking answers to be left with a bad taste in their mouth.....more to say in a minute.......

3/17/2008 5:52:39 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I don't understand how people can casually call Jesus a good man. If he is not THE Lord, then he was the greatest deciever of all time. How can you say that a person who tricked thousands into believing he was the Son of God is a good man? What kind of person would let others devote or give their life for and to him? Either He is who He says He is, or he is NOT a good man at all.

3/17/2008 5:56:37 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I do question your true intent to find truth by the name you come in. With all do respects how can you discuss anything about God knowing God is a spirit if you do not understand spiritual things? I have said this more than once and like I said you can not relate. I will say it again to be clear these things you ask about are spiritually understood.

3/17/2008 5:57:21 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

It's easy for me to see both sides here, as someone who now has faith in Christ, but did not always have such faith. Most people come to faith by asking the kinds of questions that are being asked here. I see nothing wrong with it, on the contrary, questions like this are the very reason Delve Ministries exists! There is, perhaps, a fine line between investigation and disinclination to believe, but so long as someone is on the investigation side, I want them to feel extremely welcome here. Wisdom - I certainly know where you're coming from, but please make sure you don't inadvertently offend someone who is earnestly seeking the truth.

3/17/2008 5:57:24 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I appreciate the courageous effort by arsindelve and I thank you for your comment. But I take no offense to Wisdom's comment or belief. I do take some interest in his comment on his theory that he speaks only with God. I believe I can speak with God and not speak through Jesus who in my belief as it stands right now was just a good man with good thoughts like my own and like Your own. I don't intend to do harm but to bring up valid questions and discuss them civilly.

3/17/2008 5:57:57 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

X-Frogger is dead-on right about this point. Here's a very short article on this topic: here This is such an important topic that it's the first article we every posted!

3/17/2008 6:04:23 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

The truth offends many as Jesus spoke it cause the people believe that what was said is not truth. I have not lied so why should anyone be offended. I spoke to Jesuswazza as freely as he has been speaking to me.

3/17/2008 6:05:13 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I don't read books that lie against Jesus. I am a true believer in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Jesus is God in the flesh.

3/17/2008 6:06:58 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

This is the answer you can not believe the answer is by faith we believe.

3/17/2008 6:08:48 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

In regards to my name, It was in jest, I don't really believe Jesus was a zombie, but also I wanted to make a statement so I could be percieved as someone who needed to be convinced and open to discussion. I don't mean to offend with the name. And to suggest I am not able to communicate spiritually is not only foolhardy but near-sighted because of your disposition to my comments. I am very capable and willing and DO communicate spiritually everyday. It is not with your understanding of God that I do this with, but mine. I respect that you can communicate with God and the source of God, as can I. We may call it different names but tomato/ TOEMATO.

3/17/2008 6:09:21 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

See 1 Corinthians 2:14 /// this settles it.

3/17/2008 6:11:20 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I have respect for you and your thought process and spiritual being, but I question things in life, even if they feel right and holy to me. I see the injustice in the world and in my back yard and I have to ask why? I have to ask who is causing this pain? Why does man want dominion of thought over other man? So I question and do not accept everything based on faith alone. But I do respect and understand faith more than you give me credit for.

3/17/2008 6:12:40 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

In reference to a book written by man, doesn't settle anything. The only way to settle anything is to question and analyze things, and the truth is, nothing is settled, life is full of puzzles, which is another glorious reason we are here. To question, to experience, to communicate and to love, among other things.

3/17/2008 6:13:59 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Maybe the message board is not the best place for this discussion, but please understand that our ministry exists to answer exactly the kind of questions you're asking. I truly do hope that you find some of the articles useful and helpful. Please feel free to contact me (from the contact page) anytime if you want to talk about the articles, or if you have any questions that aren't answered here. I truly hope that you find what you're looking for, and that you will let me know if I can help in any way.

3/17/2008 6:14:10 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

If you truley had some spiritual understanding we would not be wasting time on baby stuff. Just like in the movie the Matrix he told Neo you are faster than this what are you waiting for. Do you think that's air you are breathing?

3/17/2008 6:14:41 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

If you do understand faith you will know there is something more than faith. There is a power that surpasses faith it is called LOVE. In fact true faith works by the love we have for God.

3/17/2008 6:17:09 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Your thoughts are limited cause of your unbelief. You dismiss truth cause you believe it comes from a man and I tell you that scripture is of God all scriptures are from God you have to believe it by faith to get deeper understanding or you will always stay where you are at full of unanswered questions and very confused.

3/17/2008 6:20:24 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I appreciate your understanding and the care you put forth in your comments arsindelve. I will have many more questions and would like to understand more in the future. I hope you guys aren't too upset by my presence here. As for wisdom , I appreciate the open dialogue of this discussion. I am not sure what you mean by the Matrix comment you replied with.although I've seen the movie and enjoyed it. Love is an interesting concept and emotion and I agree it is tied into faith.

3/17/2008 6:22:37 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

I do not believe truth comes from a man. I believe we are all trying to understand our own levels of truth. Maybe thats why we search for things that are greater than ourselves to give us depth into our own beings. I believe we are all confused, and the ones who believe unquestionably then that is your will bending. I can understand that because we all want to be comforted but at what price? sometimes in order to get the truly difficult answers we need, we have to ask the truly difficult and sometimes taboo questions, isn't that the essence of true wisdom...wisdom?

3/17/2008 6:25:19 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

God is love and love overides everything I mean everything it never fails. In the Matrix Neo dies in the Matrix and is brought back to life cause of the love Trinity had for him she said I love you Neo so you can't be dead so get up and that's what Neo did. Death really brings life and with faith in God we recieve everlasting life through Jesus. The Matrix speaks to the same level of Jesus being the one. God tells us to love our enemys and to love God most of all. Love never fails. Love is what activates true faith.

3/18/2008 8:57:19 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Where's the fruit in this discussion?

3/18/2008 9:25:24 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

God bless the fruit could be tolerance for you or self control or the love of God but I understand your line of questioning. Tell me where is the fruit in Jesus calling the Pharisees hypocrites and vipers? Where is the fruit in Jesus saying to Peter that he will deny him 3 times before the cock crows?

3/18/2008 9:54:21 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I've deleted a few of the recent posts because they serve no purpose whatsoever for future visitors. I've deleted nothing that has to do with this actual topic. If anyone wants to continue that sidebar of the discussion, please feel free to email me (contact information on the contact page under "about") and I'll be more than happy to answer any questions or concerns you might have. But from now on, let's keep the discussion civil, respectful and on topic. Let me say again - if you are upset about anything that was said here, please email me, but do not post it here. If anything posted here is in the least bit disrespectful, it will be deleted. Again, email me if you have concerns about this.

3/18/2008 10:04:03 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Arsindelve do you believe it was disrespectful for Jesus to call the Pharisees hypocrites and vipers?

3/18/2008 10:15:27 AM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

As I said above, I'm not going to continue this discussion here. It's not pertinent to the topic or the questions asked. If you want to email me, I'll be happy to discuss this with you further. This forum is not the place for our ongoing discussion about respect.

3/18/2008 10:19:48 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Wisdom, Be angry, but sin not. That is the fruit in what Jesus said. All He did or said was in love. He knew who He was and felt no need to be argumentative. Love is not rude and does not demand its own way.

3/18/2008 10:20:30 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Actually, on second thought, I'll tell you what. Why not create a new discussion topic about respect, and we can debate it there so that you don't think I am disinterested in having that discussion in public. Ask me that same question there and we can debate it as long as you wish.

3/18/2008 10:21:29 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Before you move the discussion, might I add John 20:29?

3/18/2008 10:28:30 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Arsin, Are you going to start the new respect topic in the christian living section? I have a good scripture for it.

3/18/2008 10:41:16 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Yes, I will. Give it about 5 minutes or so from now.

3/18/2008 10:44:05 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

" How can you discuss anything about God knowing God is a spirit if you do not understand spiritual things?" "If you truly had some spiritual understanding, we would not be wasting time on baby stuff." "If you do understand faith you will know there is something more than faith. There is the power that surpasses faith, it is called Love." I try never to assume. I read these words and discerned, by the Spirit, that the words lacked the fruit of love, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

3/18/2008 11:56:40 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

You need to cool down wisdom. If you have read some of my comments in the past you would know that I am all about not compromising our beliefs and I did mention Jesus flipping tables in the temple also. However, there is a definite line between righteous anger and blind anger. Jesus' ministry was all about loving the sinner and we should show that love as well. Remember the story of the prostitute about to be stoned? Jesus stepped in and stopped that. Christians are not to throw stones at the lost. Jesuswazza you said: I see the injustice in the world and in my back yard and I have to ask why? I have to ask who is causing this pain? Why does man want dominion of thought over other man? So I question and do not accept everything based on faith alone. But I do respect and understand faith more than you give me credit for. I know what you mean. I too am troubled with the pain and suffering in this world but that is where faith comes in. We need to have faith in God's plan. I have heard somewhere that it is because of the first sin. It was our sin that messed up the world we live in. God had a perfect painless world set up for Adam and Eve. We changed and the world changed with us. As I understand it, you have problems with the Church (with a capital C) because it is led by men as well as the Bible because it was written by men. Not all men are evil...some are, but some are ordained by God. For me, I see the evil in the world all too well, however it is extremely important to try not to focus on the evil and focus on the good. There are many examples of the Church doing horrible things, however there are also many examples of the Church and Christians doing righteous things. We are not perfect and we do not exhibit perfect love all of the time. We are all guilty of this.

3/18/2008 12:05:34 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

What I said was not true? Remember when Paul told the church at Corinth that they were stuck on baby stuff so he feed them with milk cause they had no spiritual understanding? See 1 Corinthians 2:14 See also 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 mrspiggy with all your getting get understanding.

3/18/2008 12:06:41 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Yes Wisdom, Paul said that. But he was speaking to believers, not unbelievers. I understand quite well. My mother taught me before I speak, ask myself these questions: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it neccessary? If I don't answer "yes" to all three, keep my mouth closed.

3/18/2008 12:26:04 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrspiggy keep doing what your mommy told you.... Xfrogger Paul was speaking to the church which contains believers and unbelievers lets get clear just cause folks go to church does not make them believers remember the disciples asked Jesus to help them with their unbelief lets get real there is still alot of unbelief in our lives our faith wavers at times. Calm down? when folks are going to hell at break neck speed you calm down and not be stirred up it's your free will but as God's word says be excited, delighted and of good cheer cause Jesus has overcome the world!! God's word is spiritual foreknowledge for us. Let your heart be not troubled you all have a problem with how I talked with Jesuswa. but he did not think on that?

3/18/2008 12:39:41 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit used under the anointing of the Holy Spirit given to the body of Christ to know the mind of the Holy Spirit in such a way as to receive insight into how given knowledge my best be applied to specific needs arising in the body of Christ. When any gift of the Holy Spirit is used outside it's purpose of building up the body of Christ, it is no longer under the anointing. True, kind, neccessary. My mommy would be proud.

3/18/2008 12:53:44 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Fire and Brimstone may have worked in the past to bring people into the church but it never made a good Christian. Christianity is all about love. GOD is Love. We do not change people's hearts and minds by arguing with them. It is God who needs to do the changing. We need to be understanding. Again I will say: Do not stone the lost.

3/18/2008 1:03:59 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I will add this as my last words on this subject. I thank God for free will. For those who choose to believe and those who choose not to believe. To the believers Paul wrote this: "For by the grace given me I say to you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." (Romans 12:3) AND "Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." (Romans 13: 2)

3/18/2008 1:18:09 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hey wisdom, I can appreciate your creative spirit and the correlation to the Matrix, but I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean? I don't believe that Love overrides everything although the power of Love is undeniable. I believe Love is as strong as the vessel that carries it.

3/18/2008 1:31:03 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Mrspiggy I am missing your point do you understand that we must not compromise the gospel for believer or unbelievers this is one of the reasons many folks do not accept Christ cause folks compromise truth. They speak one way to so called believers and another way to unbelievers. Also Mrspriggy do not have faith in Christ with respect of persons honor your mother but God's word is above man's wisdom. As for Xfogger this is not argueing to me this is good dialogue about where I stand in my faith are you preaching a crossless gospel? Jesus died for the sin we have that leads us to hell. Come on, you guys act as though I lie. Are you stoning me for your disagreement to my comments which are of God? If the unbeliever does not accept Christ what do you tell them? We must speak the truth to them if we really love them some things are hard sayings. Remember when Jesus told the folks if they wanted eternal life they would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood many were offended saying that it was a hard saying. John 6:53,60,61

3/18/2008 1:32:38 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I would also like to add that I am thankful to all of you for posts and discussions and criticism. I really appreciate the understanding and kindness each one of you has brought to the discussion. Hopefully we can keep this dialogue each other and not to simply dismiss the other as heretical or ignorant.

3/18/2008 1:33:01 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

The Matrix is a great illustration of understanding the power of Love if you have watched all three movies you see in the first one Neo dies and by Trinity's love Neo comes back to life. In the 3rd Matrix movie called Matrix Revolutions Trinity sacrifices her life for the love of Neo and dies but Neo's love for Trinity brings her back to life. Death my friend has no power over love. Love goes into realms beyond our understanding beyond reason.

3/18/2008 1:47:37 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Again, Wisdom, thats a good illustration, but thats a movie, it's not real. I guess your suspended belief in the Matrix relates to your ability to relate to the "Power" of Jesus as well. I can respect that creativity and ability to dream.

3/18/2008 2:05:30 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Thank you Miss Piggy for the comment, I do not want to get off topic and start speaking about the matrix as well. I can understand and appreciate wisdom's desire to include works of art and fiction as inspiration in his belief but I think it's a little off topic. I agree with your quote from timothy and the "quarreling about words," because I am trying to find a deeper meaning and understanding than mere inert symbols that can be interpreted any which way.

3/18/2008 2:18:51 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

zombie: As far as your issue with the Bible being mistranslated, my pastor frequently looks up the original text in the original language to better understand how it was meant to be written. Commentaries on Bible passages also frequently do this. However, the translations (NIV, NKJ, etc) are typically as accurate as they can be. I am sure that no one intends to (or can) change the meaning of the scriptures.

3/18/2008 2:28:30 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

The Matrix is a great illustration of understanding free will or as they discussed in the movie faith or fate. We are trying to get understanding here so there must be a open mind. Free will is broken down into choices but not only choices but why do we make the choices we make understanding that. The bible talks about renewing our minds to do the things that are acceptable to God. We must fight a good fight of faith to renew our minds there are forces always trying to stop us from renewing our minds.

3/18/2008 2:30:02 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

That may be true Xfrogger, but there has been many omissions from the bible as well. And also the fact that most of the stories about Jesus himself were written many years after his death second and third hand. I can appreciate your pastors intent on getting as close to the source of the information, but what has been omitted from the bible and why would you edit the word of God?

3/18/2008 2:42:30 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

My mind is open wisdom, and please by all means renew your mind and feel refreshed by information, but I believe the only way to truly feel refreshed from scripture or any source of information is to ask questions that may be difficult to ask.

3/18/2008 2:44:30 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

most of the stories about Jesus himself were written many years after his death second and third hand ...This is one of the "facts" that non-Christians just seem to "know", but it's simply not true. The Gospels were written within 30-60 years of Christ's death by people with either first or second-hand knowledge. Paul's letters are even earlier and corroborate the Gospels. Even atheist Bible scholars now acknowledge this and have stopped appealing to it. (They don't believe the Gospels are true, but they agree on who wrote them and when). This is explained in more detail in the discovery path I linked to yesterday. Have you had a chance to glance at it ;)

3/18/2008 2:57:41 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

We each have our own truth. I don't believe in destruction because I question and look to find my own path and truth. My intent is not to mock or scoff at the bible and its scriptures but to question as I do with myself, nothing is too holy or sacred to question and think about.

3/18/2008 3:04:15 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

The bible talks about we can do nothing against the truth there is only one truth many men decieve themselves to think we all have our own truth. Jesus is the only truth... What do you think about this scripture?.... Proverbs chapter 14 verse 12?

3/18/2008 3:29:48 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

Zombi: If you are referring to the gnostic "books" of the Bible as being omitted (such as the Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, Philip, etc.), they were rejected because of the reason you list, as being dated much after Jesus' death. I have read a bit of some of them and it is really easy to see why they were rejected from the Biblical cannon. No one can pick up a pen, make up story, and make it into the Bible. They are not coherent and do not make much sense. In regards to: "We each have our own truth", isn't there only one truth? If I hold up a pen and say I believe it is not there, does then cease to exist to me yet still exist to you? I don't think so. It is there for you to see and it is there for me to see regardless of what we each believe. It is called an absolute truth.

3/19/2008 12:20:01 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Xfrogger that is a great comment about absolute truth cause this is why there is so much confusion folks going around saying they have their own truth but really they decieve themselves. We should all be in agreement there is power in agreement speaking the truth of God.

3/19/2008 12:44:51 PM by wisdom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/10/2007

I don't believe in Absolute's. There are forms of reality, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional and it all depends on the perspective and perception of the one experiencing these different forms Xfrogger. There are gospels and books int he bible that were included int he bible that were written years after Jesus' death. What indicated these books be included and the others omitted? Wouldn't they all be relevant if some of these books shed light on Jesus as a man?

3/19/2008 1:25:25 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

Wouldn't they all be relevant if some of these books shed light on Jesus as a man No, certainly not. If I wrote a book about Jesus today, it would not be a candidate for inclusion in the Bible no matter how excellent it was. I never met Jesus as a man, nor have I ever met anyone who met Him in the flesh. I am not a reliable witness. Conversely, every book in the New Testament was written by someone who either knew Jesus personally, or knew someone who knew Him. They were reliable witnesses. As time moved on, there were fewer and fewer people who knew Him and so the authors became less and less reliable. By 100AD, there was no one left and so books written after this time are not credible. There is an idea that some committee met and decided which books would be included in the Bible. It didn't really happen that way. The early Church used the books that were credible, accurate, reliable and moved people to accept the Gospel. There was a great deal of consensus among the churches as to which books those were. Rather than dictate the canon, the committee just put their stamp of approval on the books which were already selected. Again, I urge you to read the articles on this site or Stobel's book. In an email yesterday I offered to send you a copy for free. Will you take me up on it?

3/19/2008 1:34:30 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I don't want to take anything from you arsindelve but I thank you for the offer, I'm here to gain knowledge thats it. Thank you for clarifying the early church's inclusion of doctrines of the gospels.

3/19/2008 2:04:13 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

JesusWazzaZombi, Are you saying that you want to be independent? That you yourself chose what is right and what is wrong. Even if your thinking goes against what The Word of God, the Bible, tell us is truth? Here is something I hope you will pray and think about... Has your heart become hard towards God? ---------------------------------------- Ask yourself what these verses have to do with you. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 16:25 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17 (I pray that the Lord gives you understanding!)

3/19/2008 4:09:22 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

JesusWazza, May I ask, what are you trying to gain knowledge of?

3/19/2008 6:32:50 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

JesusWazzaZombi, I think someone mentioned the book; "A Case For Christ" A journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (By: Lee Strobel) I have that book. I highly recommend it! It is also available on Video. Here is just a brief part of the book: "...For much of my life I was a skeptic. In fact, I considered myself an atheist. To me, there was far too much evidence that God was merely a product of wishful thinking, of ancient mythology, of primitive superstition. How could there be a loving God if he consigned people to hell just for not believing in him? How could miracles contravene the basic laws of nature? Didn't evolution satisfactorily explain how life originated? Doesn't scientific reasoning dispel belief in the supernatural?..." He could even point to plenty of university professors who said that Jesus never claimed to be God. (Contrary to what the Bible says) He thought for sure they could be trusted! He was convinced that Jesus was only a human like you and I, though he had unusual gifts of kindness and wisdom... As far as he was concerned, the case was closed. Or so the thought. Then day his wife announced to him that she had become a Christian. He said that he rolled his eyes and braced for the worst! He felt that he had married one woman- she was fun, carefree, risk-taking, etc. Now he feared that she would turn into a sexual prude, who wanted to pray and work at a soup kitchen... Instead, what happened surprised and fascinated him! He saw such fundamental changes in her character, integrity, and personal confidence. He had to get to the bottom of this and find out what was prompting these subtle but significant shifts in his wife's attitudes. So he launched an all-out investigation in the facts surrounding the case for Christianity. He read books, interviewed experts, asked questions, analyzed history,explored archaeology, studied ancient literature, and for the first time in his life, picked apart the Bible verse by verse. He said that he applied the training he received at Yale Law School; as well as his experience as legal affairs editor of the Chicago Tribune. Over time, the evidence of the world- of history, of science, of philosophy, of psychology- began to point toward the unthinkable.... Well JesusWazzaZombi, I hope this leaves you thirsty for more. It really is a great book!

3/20/2008 6:01:02 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

I posted this in the other forum.. but please let me know what you think of this new documentary coming out that might totally crush the theory of Jesus' divinity

3/27/2008 5:51:11 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

http://www.bloodline-themovie.com/ theres the movie. wow. it has huuuuge implications

3/27/2008 5:51:54 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

You seem very interested in books and movies that disprove Jesus' divinity, but aren't so eager to read articles or books that show the opposite. I suspect you have not read any articles that we've suggested. Am I right?

3/27/2008 6:26:07 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think I will see this film, but then I may also feel compelled to finally see The Passion of the Christ - which I have not yet done. What about you? The only thing gripping I found about the Bloodline trailer was the music. I was disappointed the story line is predicated on the Da Vinci Code (I read the About the Film section). No surprise that filmmakers are trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of that lucrative thesis. One thing Hollywood may have done for me is to raise my level of skepticism to the point where I instinctively assume that much of the fare is equivalent to reading the National Inquirer. Under the rock I'm told I live under, no word of this movie had reached me until today; I'm surprised there hasn't been more hype and that it is only premiering in two cities. You seem excited about the release; I think I would find it more enjoyable if I saw Bloodline with friends who were really into the premise - but would probably enjoy the after debate more. I'm glad you re-visited this site.

3/27/2008 7:04:16 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

hey Ryan thank you for responding, I heard that this movie is Independent. I have seen Passion of the Christ and it was well done , I must say. Mel Gibson has a great dramatic cinema eye. yeah I found that trailer was great too for Bloodline. I think its good to go into viewing any "documentary" balanced and even a little skeptical. And if there is sufficient proof and the doc or movie is that well done, then ultimately it will win you over. I have that same skepticism in regards to religion as well. The debate or discussion is the greatest part of any art because it stimulates more creative thought. I'm not here to intend to force my ideas upon anyone but to discuss them openly. I thank you Ryan for respecting me here.

3/27/2008 7:21:57 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

I have read some of those books you suggested.. but I couldn't find the movie. I haven't had as much time this week as I had last week, and I haven't finished reading it, but it makes a strong case for Jesus' divinity. I do agree. Arsindelve, if you have time, check out that trailer, I would love to hear your thoughts on the topic and 'evidence.'

3/27/2008 7:26:16 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

The reason I haven't seen The Passion of the Christ is I'm afraid I can't handle the crucifixion scene. But, I think I can definitely deal with Bloodline. I will try to read more about it. I know everyone respects you here - that is the why there is so much excitement when you show up.

3/27/2008 7:34:04 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Yes, that scene in "The Passion of the Christ," was very intense. I heard an interview with Mel about his need to show what 'happened' to Jesus as realistically and brutal as possible. The realism of that scene was outstanding and I can see how so many people were moved by the story. I've read a lot on Bloodline already, the website is a great source of information but there's some small buzz going on about it, in discussion forums and such. I'm not one to get caught up too much with buzz but am compelled to see it because of the mere implications and it looks well done and extremely entertaining for a documentary. I appreciate the kind words and the acceptance here in this forum. everyone here has been kind and genuine in our open discussions. I feel bad I haven't been here as often as i would hope to recently. Work and the daily drudges of life has kept me away.

3/27/2008 7:45:44 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

To be able to view a movie or listen to a concert without the weight of our past experiences pinning us to our seats may be fascinating or scary. I wonder how long after the show it would take to reload our baggage? However, as you mentioned earlier, skepticism is also useful. A lot of forces are out to make us lemmings by trying to convince us that the path they are pushing is indeed a new path, even though the abyss is dead ahead. In that way Bloodline and Christianity may have some similarities. I don't think that anyone who blindly followed either plot line would be in much different circumstances. I used to enjoy telling Christians that only fools rush in - but, sometimes he who hesitates is also saved.

3/27/2008 8:10:09 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Thats a great point Ryan and a really funny quote. I might have to use that. What are your specific religious beliefs, if you don't mind me asking? I believe in dialogue and confrontation as long as you allow for resolution. Being Pig-headed never got anyone anywhere except lost in their own 'abyss' of resentment and anger. With some of these thoughts I share with Christianity about letting go the anger and hate and embracing the person who you may call enemy and call him brother. I can't help though to be excited for Bloodline, it seems genuine.

3/27/2008 8:22:31 PM by JesusWazzaZombi, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/17/2008

I enjoy the way you engage in dialogue on this subject and agree that only open minds can find resolution. I am proud to say I am a Christian - thanks for asking. Someone recently questioned me as to when I became a Christian; I felt I fumbled with my answer for so long the guy left thinking I wasn't really a Christian. One of the tuffest hang-ups I've had with Christianity is trying to make sense of all the hypocrisy, bitterness, hatred and other vile things you can find in professing Christians throughout the ages. In Bloodline, I'm sure greed is the motivating factor for church figures trying to cover up the alleged new evidence. However, at one point I had to admit - in attempting to be honest with myself these same ugly factors exist within me. I think that if you detest hypocrisy, I guess you shouldn't be too hateful toward your fellow hypocrites, right? That's kind of confusing but, I think a sense that I needed to get over some of my undesirable and self-destructive tendencies eventfully contributed to my giving Christianity another look. This time around, I believe I've found that Christianity wasn't the same old path that I had started out on a few times before, only to end in the same abyss. I'm pleased to say most of my anger and resentment is gone - especially that which I harbored for Christians. At times, I still get angry with them (us) though . I think I had been rather talented at fooling others, and I was especially good at fooling myself. Perhaps pursuing honesty with myself, as the nobler and more challenging fight made me realize change was necessary. I'm excited about the change Christianity has made in me. You seem like an honest man and one who relishes a challenge. I'm sure that has something to do with why Bloodline, with the Knights Templar and the quest for buried truth intrigues you. Based on your enthusiasm for the movie, I will definitely read up on it and see it as soon as it is available. Thanks for the recommendation.

3/27/2008 9:15:03 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Oh, I forgot - the point you made about embracing the one who calls you an enemy and making him your brother - that is one of the most significant things I've benefited from in Christianity. I'm glad it is important to you too; that one line says a lot about who you are. Have you ever seen historical evidence of the promotion of that concept before Jesus came on this scene? I don't know the answer to that question, but it may be interesting to look into.

3/27/2008 9:49:03 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I didn't read the whole post because I'm about to go to sleep and theres a lot of stuff to read there so someone may have already said this, but what God revealed to me about this question a long time ago was simple. God knows what we are going to do before we do it, but its still our choice as to what we do, just because he knows what choice WE WILL make doesn't change the fact that we made the choice(free will). I hope that helps.

6/4/2008 3:03:57 AM by thewhiterider, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/26/2008

Thewhiterider, You said; (Quote: "God knows what we are going to do before we do it, but its still our choice as to what we do, just because he knows what choice WE WILL make doesn't change the fact that we made the choice(free will).") ----------------- Very well said! I totally agree!

6/4/2008 5:18:50 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Thewhiterider, Yes, thank you, that was my conclusion also. The reason the discussion went on so long is that this seems like a contradiction and so men have a hard time understanding it. When things seem like a contradiction, even when God has been totally clear about it in His word, that is when we need both faith and humility to say, "Lord, I'm not smart enough to see this the way you see it, so I trust you."

6/4/2008 9:06:20 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I just got curious on this long discussion on this topic. But I agree 100 totally with 'the white rider'. That was the 1st thot that came to my mind as I began to read this dicussion.

6/11/2008 5:07:02 AM by petzz, Member of Delve into Jesus since 5/22/2008

I just got curious on this long discussion on this topic. But I agree 100 totally with 'the white rider'. That was the 1st thot that came to my mind as I began to read this dicussion.

6/11/2008 5:07:16 AM by petzz, Member of Delve into Jesus since 5/22/2008

CONFUSION IS MORE THE WORD, BUT I TRULLY LIKE WHAT YOU WROTE "LORD, I'M NOT SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THIS THE WAY YOU SEE IT, SO I TRUST YOU." THIS I DO WITH FAITH THAT WHEN "YOU" HAVE LEAD ME TO A PLACE OF VISION AND UNDERSTANDING, IT WILL BE REVEALED. UNTIL THEN, WE SHOULD FAITHFULLY FOLLOW THE GOOD SHEPHERD. I ONCE READ "CONFUSION IS PROOF THAT WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING." AND I ADD TO THAT, SHOULD WE?

6/12/2008 4:32:07 PM by ramzey1, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/12/2008

Dear Friend, Nothing is a "surprise" to God. He is all...knowing. God is: Omnipotent (He is all power), Omnipresent (He is present everywhere at once), and Omniscient (He is all-knowing) or, He wouldn't be... God. Matthew 12:36 says, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Which means, God "knows" our thoughts. He designed us. He knows all about us. Psalm 139. Adam and Eve rebelled against God and wanted ...MORE! (Th Serpent's temptation for...something they couldn't have). They SINNED. They broke their covenent relationship with God. Sin ...separated them from "perfect" fellowship. They were cast out of the Garden because if they stayed, they would have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived for eternity with SIN. God in His infinite wisdom knew that the only way to reconcile man BACK into fellowship with His creation was to clothe Himself as man (Jesus Christ) and become the perfect sacrifice for our sin. In that when a person (sincerely) repents and asks Jesus into their life and heart as their personal Saviour, they receive the Holy Spirit which teaches them the "mysteries" of the Word of God, and...they are grafted into the family of God. There is another factor to take into consideration. Satan and his demonic wrecking crew. Satan also has a kingdom. Satan also has a Trinity. Satan also wants to be praised and worshipped. And he deceives people into believing...lies, because he is the "father of lies." God knows exactly what is going on. He is the Author and finisher of life. He is...The Alpha and Omega. Nothing is a surprise to Him. He has a reason and a plan for everhthing He does. Just hold on...the BEST in on His way!

7/30/2008 9:18:06 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Hello, LostNSavd! Welcome to Delve into Jesus. It's great to have you here! That was a wonderful post, and I agree completely with everything you wrote. Thanks for sharing!

7/30/2008 10:23:32 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Lostnsavd, Where in the Bible does it say that "Satan also has a Trinity"? Could you please give Scripture reference to this? Thank you.

7/31/2008 11:54:26 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, You already know that scripture. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy. That's his trinity.

7/31/2008 12:06:25 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Lostnsavd, (I looked in Revelation and found this.) 1. Satan 2. The Beast (Antichrist) 3. Another Beast (the False Prophet) Is this Satan's Trinity which you are talking about?

7/31/2008 12:21:10 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Yes IgnitedFaith, That is right, and you can also see Satan's Trinity as the following: Satan (Father of lies), Satan, Son (Antichrist), Satan, (power) (similar to the Holy Spirit, but ultimately meant for ...evil). Please be aware, there is no Scripture verse that describes the Trinity of God. Although we "know"... God, (the Father/I AM); God, the Son (Jesus Christ/Saviour); and God, the Holy Spirit (Power). To God be the glory!

7/31/2008 12:46:22 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

The only power satan has is the power people give him. he has none of his own.

7/31/2008 12:46:34 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Dear Friend, Would you mind explaining that to "Job" when you see him? God told Satan, "You can do anything you want to my servant Job, just don't take his life." Parapharse. Sounds like Satan's got power to me. I don't think Job invited all those boils onto himself and his whole family destroyed, etc. Also please explain that to Jesus when you see Him too...Seeing that Jesus was "tempted" by Satan for 40 days. And my Saviour most definately didn't inititiate that power. Seeing that you said that the only power Satan has is "...the power 'people' give him." Satan is the "prince" of this world (which means he must have power to rule), and that is a lot of power. Just look around. There is plenty of power in ...evil! Satan's name is ...evil! Just place a "D" in front of "evil." (grin) Satan has the "power" to ...kill, steal and destroy. Satan already possessed this power before man was created. He had been God's 1 Angel. Blessings!

7/31/2008 12:59:38 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

"And Jesus came and spake to them saying, 'All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.' " Matthew 28:18 Maybe I misunderstood the word ALL. The power satan HAD was given to him by Adam in the garden. It has been taken back by Jesus. And the Word does not say that satan has the power to kill, steal and destroy. It says, he comes only to kill, steal and destroy. Using the power we give him to do so. He came to tempt my Lord, but Jesus did NOT give him power to do anything. He did what we are to do and what Adam SHOULD have done. When satan challenged the word of God, Jesus told him exactly what God said. We are to do the same thing. When satan says you are a failure, you should reply, I am more than a conquerer through Jesus or I can do all things through Christ Jesus. But, when we accept his lies, we empower him. The evil of this world is people NOT believing God's Word as told. By this, people give satan the power, just like Adam. As stated earlier, Let God be true and every man a liar. As for Job, it was his fear that caused his circumstances. "Fear not" is a command, not a suggeston. All satan can do is lie, steal the word from man and thus, destroy man. For the Word says "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out if the mouth of God. We are commissioned to fight the good fight of faith. Jesus said, "Have faith in God". Also not a suggestion. Fear is evil because you relinguish your faith in God when you surrender to it. Fear brings torment. The Bible also says, "Don't give the devil a foothold." If he had power, we wouldn't have to give him anything.

7/31/2008 2:49:55 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Also, since Jesus is God in the flesh, we should live by His words.

7/31/2008 2:57:16 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Dear Friend, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against POWERS, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 The word Powers in this context means: exousia ex-oo-see'-ah From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength. Job 1:12 says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy POWER; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD." The word power in Hebrew this context means: H3207 yad yawd A primitive word; a hand (the open one (indicating power, means, direction, etc.), in distinction from H3709, the closed one); used (as noun, adverb, etc.) in a great variety of applications, both literally and figuratively, both proximate and remote: - (+ be) able, X about, + armholes, at, axletree, because of, beside, border, X bounty, + broad, broken- handed, X by, charge, coast, + consecrate, + creditor, custody, debt, dominion, X enough, + fellowship, force, X from, hand -staves, -y work, X he, himself, X in, labour, + large, ledge, left- handed, means, X mine, ministry, near, X of, X order, ordinance, X our, parts, pain, power, X presumptuously, service, side, sore, state, stay, draw with strength, stroke, + swear, terror, X thee, X by them, X them-selves, X thine own, X thou, through, X throwing, + thumb, times, X to, X under, X us, X wait on, way- side, where, + wide, X with (him, me, you), work, + yield, X your-selves. Anyone who is in authority has ...power. Satan has power. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD be cast out. John 12:31 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD cometh, and hath nothing in me. John 14:30 The Power the Satan obtains comes from his own "rebellion" ...sin against God's standard. It is this "PRIDE" that got Satan kicked out of heaven and thrown to earth to ...RULE. Satan's whole objective is to be WORSHIPPED ..."like" God. So with that all said, Revelation tells us that Satan will obtain POWER once again when he is "released" from the bottomless pit. Revelaton 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." If Satan can deceive, he can manipulate... and therefore, he has POWER. Right now as I type, there is a spiritual battle going on for souls in the spiritual realm. There are two forces in the universe. (GOD) I AM, and Satan (God's opponet). If Satan had no power, there would be NO WAR. There would be no Satan. There would be no ...SIN (rebellion against God). Why do we need to put on the "whole" armour of God every day? Because there is a WAR going on. POWERS behind the scene and we MUST protect our souls from the POWER of the principalities. It is REAL and it is going to get...WORSE, way before it will ever get better! Glory to the Lamb of God (My Abba)!

7/31/2008 4:19:42 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Hey MrsPiggy, What ever happened to you liking my "salutation?" hahahaha Just kidding.

7/31/2008 4:23:46 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

This is amazing! I come in here for the first time last night and low and behold, ...WHAM! I get jumped on like bees on a honey comb. Sheez. Is everyone here a born-again follower/disciple of Jesus Christ? Oh and uhmm, nice to meet ya'll too. I think! hahahaha Servant of the "living" God, Jesus Christ...

7/31/2008 4:27:58 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

I think you should see it in a positive way. I've known Mrs Piggy long enough that I think I understand the context of her discussion with you. I can stand back and see it as two very good old friends having a deep discussion over a cup of coffee. Personally, I'm really glad you're here!

7/31/2008 6:02:16 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Perhaps it's time for another cup of cofee. Hahaha

7/31/2008 8:12:01 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world. No argument intended. I just refuse to magnify satan and thus give him power over me. I'm having coffee now.

8/1/2008 9:41:34 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I'm thankful there are people like you that are here (Arsindelve, MrsPiggy, and Lostnsavd, ect.) that love the LORD, and love to talk about Him!

8/2/2008 1:48:51 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

I think that this is a very interesting discussion and might merit its own forum thread (meaning the latest diversion talking about Satan's power/lack of it). My personal opinion is a blend of the two already mentioned. I agree with lostnsavd when you say that Satan has power. I think it is a gross mistake on the part of the Christian community to discount this and the fact that there is a spiritual war that we must be vigilant against. However, mrspiggy is correct in that we must also fear not. She is also correct in that Satan can do nothing if (note--while we are protected by Christ) if we do not give him authority. Thus, it is authority, and not power, about which mrspiggy is correct. The responsibility of the believer, then, is to be aware of the Enemy and what he is capable without succumbing to fear and continuing to deny the Enemy any authority in our own lives. Easier said than done, but there it is.

8/3/2008 11:33:17 PM by duncan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/12/2008

Thank you Duncan for that clarification. I do know and understand that a person can "invite" spirits from Satan's demonic wrecking crew to opress and/or possess them deliberately and ...also very innocently/ignorantly. I also know that Satan cannot do "anything" (not even spiritually sneeze) without God's permission. As it illustrates so clearly in Job's life in Job 2:2. Job did not as far as I understand "invite" Satan in, but it does indicate that God removed His protective Hand from Job's life in order to be tested. Therefore, (for example), God can allow Satan to attack someone who has backslidden to get them back on track again. 1 Samuel 16:14 says, "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil Spirit from the LORD troubled him." Here again, God "allowed"... There is no doubt that God can use evil spirit's to draw people to Himself, to test them, prove them, draw them back in right standing, and also for the benefit of someone else. He most certainly can do whatever He chooses, for He is ...God (I AM). I am not saying, nor ever did say/claim, that Satan's power supersedes God's, or that a Christian should ever fear Satan. Absolutely not. But it is imperitive for the Christian to "know" the character of God, the Father (I AM); God, the Son (Jesus Christ) and God, the Holy Spirit; as well as...the character of Satan and his demonic army and their ranks. Why should we know the character of Satan? Because... when a soldier goes into battle they are trained to "know" everything there is about their enemy so that they can be 'completely' ..."equipped" for warfare. Therefore, a follower/disciple of Jesus Christ is also...a soldier in "God's Army." And I am proud to serve my Commander-in-Chief, Jesus Christ.

8/4/2008 12:28:29 AM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Hi all. First off, I'm new, and I know its annoying discussing subjects that have already been settled or resolved, but I haven't read all the posts and I am intrigued by the very first one. Will someone please explain to me why a contradiction exists between some person having the ability to choose between at least two different outcomes, and some other person knowing which outcome will happen? I don't see, in the least bit, why having the knowledge of what choice will be made (or, for that matter, why one will choose one way or the other-though that is for another discussion), limits the ability for another being to choose.

10/5/2008 6:26:13 AM by TylerG, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/5/2008

TylerG, Welcome to the site. It's great to have you here. I'm going to respond to your question here (as best as I can) and then I will jump over to the new discussion you created and join you there, since I think this one is getting a little long and stale. If you don't see the contradiction, then consider yourself blessed. Many people do, to the point of wanting to limit God's knowledge because they cannot deal with it. I am not as bothered by it as I used to be, and the part that bothers me does not get in the way of what I know to be true about God. I think the only good analogy I can come up, and I used it above in months ago, is the lottery. Suppose you know in advance all the numbers that everyone will pick. By virtue of that, you also know who will win, and so you go and congratulate the winner a week before they play. Do this for a couple of weeks and it will start to get people's attention. They will assume that you are messing with the lottery somehow. They will assume that you are manipulating the machines or the process somehow. It's probably the correct assumption. You are controlling it, and if that's so, then no one has a fair chance of winning. You will have taken away their freedom to win. In other words, if you know the outcome, then you are determining the outcome. They are one in the same. In this example, because you are human, there is no way for you to know what numbers everyone will pick and so the correct conclusion is that you have manipulated the process. However, when people apply this same principle to God, they forget that he's God! We can't take our human limitations about time, freedom and knowledge and force them on God. If that means that God seem to work in contradictory ways, so be it, if that is what the Bible teaches. I'll hop over to the new discussion now.

10/5/2008 8:25:15 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I know I'm a year late but I just had to respond, as these concepts once troubled me and caused me to question my faith, until the Holy Spirit gave me a clear understanding of this. God is All Knowing, the Alpha and the Omega. What constitutes our free will is the fact that he does not impose himself on us or force us to love him. Because God is All Knowing he knows what will become of our lives if we choose to follow him and what will become of us if we don't, which is why he is able to give explicit details of the richness and fullness of his blessings if you choose to follow his word and the treachery and pain you'll face if you choose not to follow him. If I'm not clear let me use this analogy to describe what I'm trying to express. Consider a film with an alternate ending or better yet a novel that allows you to choose your own ending. In these stories you'll be prompted to turn to another chapter or a certain page if you want one thing to happen, if not your instructed to read on. However once you read one of the multiple story outcomes the novel has to offer, more than likely you'll go back and read the alternatives as well. Once you've read them all you know the differing outcomes that the main character's differing actions & decisions could have created in response to an event in the story. Now consider the All Knowing power of God, as an all seeing all knowing deity he has the power to know the outcomes of the multiple twist and turns our lives can take as a result of the choices we do and don't make. He is never "surprised", but rather pleased or disappointed by the choices that he gave us the freedom to make. However as believers in the power of God, the idea that we put our lives in God's hands is the genuine essence of Christian faith. Once we fully commit our lives to God the basis of said faith is that he will guide our steps on the path of righteousness that leads to heaven. So yes we have free will to choose to know the Lord and once we come to know him and give him full control of our lives the Holy Spirit begins to expedite the plan he predestined for our lives, which is the ultimate alternate ending.

8/11/2009 2:25:40 PM by LeahAnara, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/11/2009

LeahAnara, Welcome to Delve Into Jesus. It's wonderful to have you here. Your analogy is one of the better one's I've heard. It fits well with the concept of "Middle Knowledge" that was brought up earlier. Thanks for sharing, I hope you will continue to join in these discussions!

8/12/2009 5:43:49 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I like that analogy a lot. Much easier to understand than 200+ posts :D

8/14/2009 7:55:10 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

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