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What Was Pauls Thorn?

I have my own theory, and will share it later...however I'm interested in what others believe it was, and why.

7/2/2009 1:07:13 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Some have said pride, others lust. Guilt over his persecution of the Christians? I'm really not sure, but I confess to being curious and wanting to asking him myself in a few years.

7/2/2009 1:15:20 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Hey Michael - perhaps that was a slight typo regarding Paul persecuting the Jews.

Saul, before he became Paul, persecuted Jews who had become Christians. However, after his conversion he also had to chastise many Jews who had become Christians because they were insisting Gentile converts to Christianity must adhere to aspects of the law like circumcision and dietary laws.

Although the modern Church has backed away from matters like circumcision and unclean meats, I've found it intriguing that some elements in the Church still desire to reach back into the law to make parts of it binding on us today. We still need to constantly review the books Paul penned for guidance on this subject.

I wonder if Paul's thorn in the flesh was something that served as an ever present reminder to him that the physical requirements of the law had been surpassed by grace.

7/2/2009 1:51:51 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Yeah, I meant to write "persecution of the Christians". I've fixed the typo - thanks. Long day....

7/2/2009 1:58:27 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I suppose I'm just too goofy to speculate on the possibility that Paul's thorn in the flesh was something like a botched tattoo of Romans 11:6.

7/2/2009 2:12:29 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Botched tattoo? Romans 11:6? I think I've lost my mind and you're playing with it :)LOL

Please explain...

7/2/2009 3:31:52 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Sorry Lapanache, the botched tattoo was just silliness. However, the thought about Paul's thorn being something that kept him ever mindful of living under grace, not the law, was serious.

If Peter's thinking had prevailed (without God's intervention), Peter would still have us doing ritualistic hand washing before we sat done to meals at segregated tables. God also used Paul to change Peter's heart.

I wonder if God were to give us another great teacher on grace for this age, would he be tattooed or have some other visible thorn which would offend some people?

Personally, I find tattoos to be distasteful, but not forbidden. Paul must have seemed absolutely yucky to the Jewish converts to Christianity because he insisted they allowed practices which were so gross and contrary to their deeply ingrained, moment-to-moment way of life, that they had to totally change their way of thinking and living.

Having been such a staunch Jew, perhaps it was extremely difficult for Paul to change aspects of his life such as how he had served God. It may have been so easy for such a person to naturally fall back on all of the old customs he had found so beautiful and holy for most of his life. But, a thorn in the flesh reminding him about grace, could serve to keep him on track.

Yesterday, I was reading Galatians and feeling grateful for Paul's experiences and writings on grace. Understanding law and grace are concepts players in my own little world are still struggling over. Thanks be to God that the Bible is His Living Word!

7/3/2009 6:03:19 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

Thanks for the laugh...I needed my daily dose of it:) I love humor, it's good for the soul..

I can tell that you have given the subject of Pauls Thorn some thought as well...your answers prove that.

I probably should have been clearer in my original question because my intention was to ask what you believe the thorn "was"..not "why" he had it..i.e pride, lust, guilt due to his prior persecution of the believers etc...

Many might even say it really doesn't matter what it was, but that the real issue is why, so we could learn from his mistake or whatever weakness he may have been struggling with (pride, lust guilt etc) or teach us about grace.

However, I believe that the "what" it was may be more important than the "why" he had it.

Just for a change of perspective instead of believing that the thorn was a physical infirmity of some sort that Paul was refering to when he said "I was given a thorn in the flesh..." maybe it was something else?

We know it wasn't an actual "thorn", so we know to at least some extent it was only a metaphor, like in todays vernacular we say "A pain in the neck"...we don't mean an actual pain in our actual "neck"

So could Paul have been refering to something other than a physical "something"? Could he have been refering to the tests, trials and persecutions he endured?

He said it was a messenger sent by satan to buffet him...could he have been talking about a demon that was sent by satan to cause others to persecute him?

Paul was a great threat to satans kingdom, everywhere he went he took the enemies territory. And satan had to send out legions of demons (messengers) in an attempt to thwart the advance of God's Kingdom.

So when Paul prayed 3 times for these relentless tests, trial, tribulations and persecutions (thorn in his flesh) to stop, be taken away..God's answer was "No..My grace is sufficient for you" That scenero would fit perfectly with what Jesus said we would endure "That we would face many tests, trial, tribulations and persecutions but to be of good cheer because He had overcome the world...

If we are left believing that Pauls thorn was a physical infirmity, then what do we do with scriptures like "God is not a respector of persons" He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow", "By His stripes we are healed" etc...

Because if Paul was an exception to these rules, then God is a respector of persons..he does pick and choose. If God changes his mind then He really isn't the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If God told Paul that He wouldn't heal an infirmity, then the stripes Jesus took are not for everybody, but only those that He chooses...If that's true, why do we even try to have faith for anything? Is it like a toss of the coin? Maybe God will heal me..maybe not.

So many people need God to heal them of their sicknesse, diseases and infirmities, but if they believe that God might want them to keep their ailments to punish them, or keep them under control, or keep them humble they may not believe that God wants them well and as a result actually die believing a lie.

Could satan have so distorted our understanding of Pauls thorn to the degree that we can't or won't recieve the Lord's healing touch?

7/3/2009 4:49:07 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache - I agree that the thorn may very well have not been a physical something. I don't think that matters in the long run - all types of sufferings have much in common.

Satan causes many sufferings. However, God brings all things to good, even illness and every type of suffering (Romans 8:28)!

God does heal! The only reason God allows infirmities to persist is for His glory.

Some view illness as a curse; a few can see it as a gift. Most are driven to God when illness strikes (2 Corinthians 1:9). Thinking about death has a beneficial purpose; one that is often neglected while we're in the pink (Psalms 90:12). Illness has a special way of knocking out all of our god's and crowning Jesus as the Victor.

No matter how many times a body is healed, it does eventually succumb to death. Our sins - leading to ultimate death - are healed by Jesus' stripes. The healing we are really seeking leads to eternal life with Jesus.

Illness cannot defeat the Christian - it does bring the Christian to rest in the sufficiency of Jesus. "To live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21).

God, by His grace, wishes to heal us all to live real life with Jesus!

The visage of the grace tattoo is becoming clearer to me.

7/4/2009 6:32:21 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I am so grateful to have someone who will debate this issue with me.

So many avoid this subject like a plague for fear of, I don't know what..maybe finding out what they have believed all their life isn't entirely true afterall? That they don't want to admit they might have been decieved?

Maybe men's traditions and misguided assumptions have blinded them from the truth that will set them free and as a result made the Word of God of no effect?

That all the strongholds, reasonings, theories and high and lofty thoughts have been raised up against the true knowledge of God? Not out of any deliberate attempt to hurt anyone, but ignorance, or lack of true knowledge..The Lord cries "My people perish from the lack of knowledge" Could this be knowledge that has been lost?

I have been struggling and researching Paul's Thorn for over 2 years now. In conjuction with another issue "Does God heal us ALL?" In the context of physical healing, not spiritual healing.

My belief is that both spiritual AND physical healing was bought and paid for in-full, once and for all by Jesus at Calvary.

I believe sickness, disease and infirmities are a curse according to Duet. 28:21-22. But Jesus came to redeem us from that curse and proved it by healing ALL who were sick with all kinds of ailments.

I can appreciate the fact that our sicknesses do run us to God, so in some sense sickness is a blessing. God may even have a hand in allowing the sickness to begin with, but His purpose would be so we could repent of any wrong doing and then be healed. Throughtout the Bible He is always begging His people to come to Him and be healed. The end result is always so He can heal us.

The word "salvation" translated from the Greek word "Sozo" means complete deliverance; redemption from the result of sin; spirit, soul and body. The implication is that our salvation includes not only being redeemed from Hell (spiritual death), but from emotional turmoil, sickness, disease and infirmities as well or all the works of the enemy.

Thank you for agreeing that Pauls thorn may not have been a physical one. Personally I do not believe it was.

When you say...

I don't think that matters in the long run - all types of sufferings have much in common.

I would respectfully ask you to keep an open mind and rethink that. I believe it does matter, and can in fact be the difference between life or death for some who believe that Pauls thorn was a physical "something".

Too many precious people of God are full of guilt and shame over some past repented sin and so believe that God is using their sickness, disease or infirmaties as a way to punish them for it, or humble them leaving them with no hope or faith to recieve the healing the Lord paid for to give them and they use Pauls thorn as a basis for that belief.

Ryan, I think you and I, for the most part, are in agreement ..but for the sake of others who may be reading this...I will be posting some of my ideas in reference to Pauls thorn, and the conclusions I have come to regarding it...

I stand ready and willing for more debate on the issue.

7/4/2009 10:19:46 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

2 Corinthians 12:5-10 (New King James Version)
5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities (weaknesses)?. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

The Thorn in the Flesh

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness (infirmity?). Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities (weakness?), that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities (weakness?), in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christs sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

(In parenthesis mine for clarification)

In the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible the Greek word astheneia (as-then'i'ah) (See 769 & 772) is used and translated into our english words "disease", "sick", "infirmity", "malady" and "weakness" and are interchangable.

Strongs 769 - The word infirmity can mean feebleness or body or mind, malady, frailty - disease, infirmity, sickness or weakness.

Strongs 772 - strengthless - more feeble, impotent, sick, without strength, weak (weakness) or a weak thing or person.

Depending on the authors intention the word infirmity - astheneia (as-then'i'ah) it can mean one of more of those conditions.

Even in our own english language many words are interchangable depending on the persons intention. Example; we use the term "I'm sick of this!" The word "sick" in that statement doesn't really mean we are "sick" with a real physical ailment of some kind, it just means we are tired or angry about whatever is causing us frustration.

Is it possible that when Paul said "I was given a thorn in the flesh", it was his way of describing the frustration due to the persecution he was up against from both inside and outside the church (Body of Christ)?

My point is...and with these above definitions in mind could Paul have meant he was weak, spiritually speaking, not in a physcial sense?

Anytime the word "Therefore" is used, it is refering to or putting into a nut-shell what preceeded it. So when Paul said in verse 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities weakness?, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christs sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. that spiritual weakness was what he was refering too, not a physical disease?

In Matthew 8:17/Isaiah 53:4 "He Himself Jesus took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses" IS talkng about sicknesses and disease.

If so, then Paul was not begging for the healing of anything physical, he was asking that God rescue him from the mental anquish and maybe even physical injuries he was recieving due to the persecution he was enduring. God's answer had to be "No". Because we are to bare tests, trials, tribulations, persecutions for the Gospels sake. Thus His grace is sufficient for that. He gives us grace to endure those things for the Gospels sake. We share the sufferings of Christ

If I am correct, Pauls thorn can no longer be used to lead people to the conclusion that healing is not for all.

It means that ALL sicknesses, diseases and physical infirmaties were in fact bore by our precious Lord and Savior Jesus and we can claim that promise without doubting.

Paul and the other Apostles endured great physical injuries; beatings, flogging, crucified upside down, ship wrecks, snake bites, put in jail...the list goes on an on and on due to the persecution they recieved in spreading the Gospel.

With that in mind, if I were to be injured or even die while being beaten, flogged and even crucified because of my belief in Christ, or because I was preaching the Gospel...then I WOULD COUNT IT ALL JOY!!! God would allow it to continue because His grace would help me endure it. I would bare that with humility knowing that I suffered for the Gospels sake. I would rejoice in that!

However, there is a difference between being injured while being persecuted for the Gospels sake and living with sickness, disease and infirmities due to a medical problem.

Jesus went about healing ALL who were sick and oppressed by the devil...Not some, not only a select few, not only those who were worthy, not only those who were perfect and sinless, but ALL OF THEM. Every single one of them.

7/4/2009 11:53:11 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ok Michael and Ryan...did you get your bellies full of BBQ? I hope you had a wonderful 4th of July weekend...

I know you both are the BIG BOYS here, I have read and enjoyed so many of your posts throughout Delve Into Jesus..I've spent hours pouring over them, and have learned so much from them...Thank you Michael for creating it.

I love a good debate, so I hope to get some more input from both of you and many others here on What was Pauls Thorn?

Be blessed...so you can continue to be a blessing!!

7/5/2009 6:07:33 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I believe that Paul had a physical problem such as poor eye sight or a bad back. Most translations state that it was a thorn in the flesh, which could refer to a sin issue, but I find it interesting that God's answer was "My grace is sufficient unto thee." I am currently going through my second round with workers comp for a back injury. The pain is horrific and debilitating. Everyone around me is praying for healing, but I keep praying that His grace is sufficient for me. I have had plenty of sin in my life that His grace has covered, and I have had plenty of injuries that have been covered by His grace. So why do I believe it was a physical issue in Paul's case? I suppose in part it is because he was a Pharisee and they were known for their strict adherence to the law. He would have been convicted of his sins in his new relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit, but it seems fairly certain to me that these were most likely centered around his persecution of believers and not an ongoing temptation or active sin. Maybe I am being a little naive in this belief. What are your thoughts?

7/5/2009 11:43:16 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Good Morning kcgodlyman,

Thank you for responding to my question.

I'm so sorry to hear that you're in so much pain from your back injury. I myself have had horrific and debilitating back problems (Sciatica) that lasted on and off for over 15 years, so I can certainly empathize and sympathize with you. The pain is often unbareble. It's almost impossible to sleep, or sit, or stand. I actually needed help getting dressed and other things that are too personal to mention. So believe me, I do know what you may be going through.

And...I am so grateful to know that your loved ones are praying for you, and your own prayer that His grace will help you endure it.

My ultimate prayer for you would be that you go beyond grace to endure it and instead recieve complete healing of your back, the way I finally did over 3 years ago.

As to Pauls Thorn, like you and many others I used to believe that his thorn was a physical problem too based on scriptures like; Galatians 4:15 "What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your own eyes and given them to me."

I can understand why many including myself, at one time, believe that he was actually refering to an actual eye problem. However, could he have been using a metaphore? Much like we have sayings such as "You would have given me the shirt off your own back". By saying this he really wasn't refering to his or their actual eyes, but a way to describe their generousity toward him during a previous visit he had made to them?

As far as any back problems he may have experienced. Is it possible that he may have been making references to damage done to his back as a result of the many beatings, floggings he endured due to persecution? Not any problems due to sickness, disease or infirmity due to a medical problem?

7/6/2009 4:06:57 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I've moved all the replies from the newer discussion into this one and deleted the other discussion. Please let me know if it looks like I've missed or broken anything.

7/6/2009 6:37:03 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Oh Michael you're a genius!! Thanks...everything looks wonderful..

7/6/2009 6:59:23 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I am intrigued by this discussion still. God uses trials in our lives to help us to grow and mature. Sometimes those trials come in the form of physical ailment or injury. If I may again refer to myself, prior to my first back injury in 2000 if found myself full of pride and I prayed for God's help in finding humility. The injury to my back was very humbling as I had always prided myself on my strength. As an aside, everything I had trained for in my life required strength and agility. I was now dependent on my friends and family to take care of my daily needs. I could not even carry a carton of milk. None of this is to say that I believe God caused my injury, but He did use the injury to help me develop humility. Now I feel called to start a new ministry at our church and I am seeking assistance in the process which is something I never would have done before my injuries.

To carry my rambling into our current discussion; is it not possible that God allowed Paul's thorn to remain in order that Paul would have a chance to grow and mature in an area of his spirituality. In this scenario we need not be concerned with the question of whether the thorn was physical or spiritual in nature, as either circumstance could serve to help Paul to grow in dependence on the Lord. Paul had always been a prideful man who was very self righteous in his convictions. When he gave himself over to the Lord he would have needed to learn to trust not in himself, but in his new Lord and Savior. His thorn may have served to aid him in this new dependence.

7/6/2009 12:17:19 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Hi Lapanache - I've had a only a moment to read all that you wrote. I'd like to make some comments and ask some questions but, I have too little time today.

However, given your passion demonstrated on this topic and the topic of spiritual gifts, I was wondering if you have the gift of healing?

7/6/2009 2:59:24 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I look forward to your comments and your questions...I actually appreciate a really good debate that pushes me out of my comfort zones...it's the only way to grow..

As to your question...I do believe so. However the gift is not "mine", but is the Lord's. I'm only a vessle and used as the Holy Spirit wills and when others have faith to recieve it.

7/6/2009 6:52:12 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

kcgodlyman,

I don't want you to think I have ignored your last post...I have tried 2 times to respond...but it must be taking me too long to get my thoughts down and "save' them.

I will come back this afternoon and try again...

Yours in Christ,

7/7/2009 5:23:50 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,

I apologize that you had problems with the discussion. I know how frustrating it can be to write something and then have it disappear with nothing to show for it. I am so sorry that this happened to you.

By default, the website will log you out after twenty minutes of inactivity. However, there is a mechanism to prevent the website from logging you out while you are composing a reply. I discovered this morning that it was not working properly. I have tracked down and fixed the issue, and I believe it is working once again.

What I recommend (until you have a chance to confirm this is working again), is to write your reply in another program such as Word or notepad, and then paste it into the box on the website. Once you're sure that this feature is working again and that the website will not log you out after a few minutes, this precaution should not be necessary.

Please let me know if it seems to be working properly for you.

7/7/2009 5:33:16 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Michael...great minds think alike...I did copy it into Word and copy/pasted back here..thank you for the suggestion and the fix..

kcgodlyman,

I'm glad you're still intriqued by the issue. I did try to reply to your post but it must have taken me to long because when I went to "save" (post) it, it went Poof! Gone..:( sad face)

I took the liberty of reading your Testimony - "From dog to God He allows U-Turns" and was very touched by it.

Your testimony is so much like my own. The details may be different, but the pain of living in an abusive or dysfunctional family leave the same emotional scars.

We find ourselves grasping for ANYTHING that will take away that pain. Drugs and alcohol are always at the top of that list....

I loved the story about your fathers friend and his old tattered Bible, and the influence he and it (Bible) had on your life.

My grandfather was that someone the Lord gave to me. He used to snuggle me in his lap and sing "The Old Rugged Cross" to me and read from the scriptures from an old tattered Bible.

Thank God for old men with old tattered Bibles...

Unlike you however, I didn't "get it". Not until I was 28 years old after I come to the end of myself and finally gave my life to the Lord.

My grandfather had long gone to be with the Lord by then, but his prayers for me were still alive and well.

Now to our topic and your comments...

Yes, I do believe that the Lord tests us, and allows trials, and even though He tempts no man, he does allow temptations to help us see our sin, weaknesses and character flaws, so with His help we can overcome them.

For me, I lived in the wilderness for many years, going around and around the same stupid mountains until I finally decided to cross the Gordan into the Promised Land.

Unlike you though, I just don't believe He uses sickness, disease and physical infirmities as a way to chasten us. Primarily based on what Jesus did in reference to them. The scriptures say He went about doing good; healing ALL who were sick and oppressed by the devil.

If God had put or allowed those various sicknesses, diseases and infirmities on the people (for any reason) then wouldn't Jesus have left them ill?

In Duet 28:21-22 the Lord calls sickness, disease and infirmities a curse. Jesus came and became a curse for us, so we can be free of them.

Jesus did not pick and choose who He healed based on whether they were sinless or not (pride, lust guilt..etc..), His only criteria was they needed faith to recieve it..."According to your faith, be it unto you"..In some cases He did say AFTER HE HEALED THEM..."go and sin no more.."

If we had to wait until we were worthy, or humble enough, or sinless we would never recieve ANYTHING from the Lord. That's what grace is....unmerited, undeserved grace and mercy....anything else is trying to EARN or get approval.

"We are saved (healed) by grace, not by works, lest we boast"

Please don't think I believe that we can just get or recieve the blessings of God and live any old way we want to...On the contrary...God is not mocked..I'm just trying to say that God knows our hearts. We are dust, full of sin and deserve Hell's fire...our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before a Holy God. Knowing this about us He will shed His grace on us as we continue to "walk out" not "earn" our salvation.

I do have more to say, but I must go for now..and will come back later today to finish my thoughts..

Until then...be blessed!

7/7/2009 6:38:50 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I did not say I believe He chastens us with illness or injury, only that He will use the circumstance to allow us to grow and mature. Sometimes we need to learn patience, or as in my case, humility; other times it may be that He is allowing us to be strengthened by the trial. Picture a runner who only sticks with running a distance they can run comfortably, in the end they do not grow and expand their abilities because they never called upon their body to go beyond the comfort zone. Speaking from personal experience, I would be a lot less tenacious and a lot less flexible if I had not gone through the trials I've had in my life, but they have taught me that with the Lord's help and guidance I can make it through anything, and come out a better person in the end. My trials have taught me to reach out and grab the Lord's hand any time I feel I am over my head, instead of trying to solve everything in my own power. There is no doubt in my mind that He will heal me when the time is right, but it is His timing, not mine, that is in control.

7/7/2009 8:27:17 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

I regret having misquoted you. Please except my apology, it certainly wasn't my intention to do so...I stand corrected.

I often fail miserably in my attempt to get my points across as successfully as I had wished to. I just don't know how to put into written words what I mean sometimes.

What did you think about my question...If God had put or allowed those various sicknesses, diseases and infirmities on the people (for any reason) then wouldn't Jesus have left them ill?

7/7/2009 3:27:50 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,
No apology is necessary. No offense was taken. I too have trouble conveying my thoughts.
Now to your question: Disease and infirmity happen ever since the fall of man in the Garden. They are a fact of life and are neither given to us by God, nor are they "allowed" - they just are a part of mankind's existence. Occasionally they may be brought about by the enemy; consider the case of Job. However, God does not play games with our health. He does use every aspect of our lives to mold His creation and therefore it is logical to assume He uses our trials as well. Healing, on the other hand, can be a gift from God, but we can not illicit healing on command - at least not in my experience or to my knowledge. The gift of healing is a valid, and very potent, spiritual gift. I also believe that it is a gift that God takes a very active role in using. In the Gospels we witness the healings that Jesus performed, however, it is entirely possible that there were others performed and that there were some that He chose not to heal. As God, He has the sole right to choose healing or not, but His choice is never capricious; it is always made with our best interests at heart.
Blessings to you!

7/7/2009 3:40:19 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Touche'! You got me...The story of Job has me stumped. I've read the story, but I haven't really "studied" it. All I really know about the story is satan asked God for permission to test Job, God says Ok, but put boundaries on it and Job passed the test. I love happy endings and this story had one..God gave back to Job twice what he had before...

Actually the Bible does talk about a time when Jesus didn't or wasn't able to perform miracles of healing...Why not? (Hint Matthew 13:53-58 & Mark 6:1-6)

7/7/2009 5:30:44 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

The passage in Mark does say He healed a few sick, but that He was unable to do miracles. This is very interesting as Jesus is God yet it appears He was limited in this instance. Then there is the question of the cause of limitation. On the face of it one would say that it is the lack of belief on the part of the inhabitants of the town. Both passages specifically mention His statement about a prophet having no honor in his home town. Could it be that He was unable to perform miracles because He was in His home town? Or is it possible that He performed no miracles because they would have been wasted on the people He grew up among. An interesting question that I will put some more effort into researching. Thank you!

7/8/2009 11:33:55 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said.. "On the face of it one would say that it is the lack of belief on the part of the inhabitants of the town."

It would seem that most the people of Nazareth knew Jesus, and to them He was nothing more than the carpenters son, the guy that lived down the street. In Isaiah 53:2-3 It is prophecied how He would be recieved..

2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

There were a few who did believe though and recieved a miracle. Most did not.

Jesus is God, He has no limitatons whatsoever when it comes to His ability to do something. NOTHING is impossible for God. However, limitations do come when the people won't recieve what He offers.

Take being Born-again for example. He died on the cross to provide salvation for all of us, but if we don't believe it, we don't recieve it.

Throughout Jesus's whole ministry He was always quoted saying things like "Be it unto you according to your faith" "Your faith has made you whole" etc....

I believe based on scripture; Faith is the only prerequisite for recieving anything and everything He offers.

I do believe there were many many people that did not get healed by Jesus, but not because He arbitrarily or caprisiously wouldn't but because He couldn't due to their lack of faith....He was just the guy down the street. They did not see Him for Who He truly was for various reasons.

I love the story of the Leper who came to Jesus...fell at His feet and said "Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean"...Oh, my precious Jesus responded by saying "I am willing..be clean"

I've never found anywhere in scripture where Jesus said anything even remotely like...No, I don't think I'll heal you yet, because you haven't learned your lesson yet", or "No that disease runs in your family, so you just keep it", or "No, I'm gonna let you keep that infirmity for a while because you'll learn something from it", or "No, you don't deserve it, your too sinful, or you've made too many mistakes in your life....

He healed everyone who came to Him...Every single time...Every single person who came to Him believing.

Can you find any place in scripture where Jesus didn't heal someone, for any reason other than a lack of faith?

7/9/2009 6:10:22 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I don't think Paul had a back problem because he stated in I Corinthians 9:27, " I discipline my body like an athlete,..." He would not be able to "bring it into subjection" if his back was in such pain. But he does this "lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

7/9/2009 3:30:59 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I think the main question here is not what Paul's thorn was but, what would it mean to you if you knew what his thorn was.

I mean, many people spend years trying to reason out what Paul's thorn was, so what will it mean to you if you knew?

Ever thought of the fact that God does not intend for us to know what the thorn is, that is why the Bible doesn't say?

Maybe there is another lesson in this?

7/9/2009 5:07:45 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

7/9/2009 5:07:59 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

7/9/2009 5:08:20 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Oops, pressed the save button too many times, sorry

7/9/2009 5:09:49 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

mrspiggy,

Thank you for your incite... I agree 100 percent

7/9/2009 9:02:41 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

chrisv,

What would the lesson be?

7/10/2009 5:52:57 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Hey Lapanache - Usually, I enjoy debating too but, lately I've not been in the mood. Also, rather than debate you, I'd prefer that your words be true. However, for the sake of exploring the concept, I've time to make an attempt now.

I don't think physical healing was high on Gods priority list while Jesus was in the flesh.

Jesus came to give vertical corpses real life.

So in a sense, Jesus' purpose was all about healing but, the healing He preferred was spiritual healing unto eternal life.

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and promised His followers would endure every type of suffering in this life. He did not promise a life of smooth sailing past the rocky shores of illness.

You asked:

Can you find any place in scripture where Jesus didn't heal someone, for any reason other than a lack of faith?

I can think of several people Jesus did not heal despite their possession of deep faith.

Even as Jesus was being crucified, all the people Jesus had healed, plus those who witnessed the reality of these miracles, would have been rushing up to Jesus to beg for more and more healing - if unlimited physical healing was on the playbill.

After all, a blind man whose sight was restored, would soon be sickened by a virus. A leper whose skin became pure would eventually suffer tooth decay or debilitating back ache. Such is the nature of human bodies - they are in need of continual healing until they ultimately succumb to death.

One of the thieves who was crucified next to Jesus was enduring immense pain and made a profession of faith - what greater faith is there than to recognize Jesus as Lord? Jesus rewarded this man's faith with the assurance of paradise, but did not offer any relief from his physical suffering.

The other thief taunted Jesus to save Himself and Jesus had earlier prayed about this cup passing from Him. Jesus had all the necessary faith that He could heal Himself from the pain and the wounds. But, the will of the Father was more important, so Jesus was willing to suffer for our sake.

All Christians must take up their cross and follow Jesus (Luke 9:23).

7/10/2009 7:25:43 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

According to Psalms 103:3, He forgives all our sins and heals all our diseases.

Whether spiritual or physical, He heals.

Why would we think His healing is limited?

7/10/2009 7:54:59 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

mrspiggy,

Bravo!! Well said...

7/10/2009 11:40:43 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I didn't think anyone suggested that Jesus' power or desire to heal is limited.

The question under present consideration is:

Does everyone who has faith receive all physical healing in this physical life?

Lapanache asked if anyone could cite a Biblical record of someone not receiving healing for any reason other than a lack of faith.

I thought I had identified several people, from the Bible, who did not receive their healing on earth.

I didn't expect to find agreement but never-the-less, I'm amused that no one tried to suggest that these figures did receive healing for everything in this life, or did they by referencing Psalm 103?

Surely, Mrs. Piggy is not suggesting that Psalm 103 means all diseases are healed during a human life time because I distinctly recall her post under the discussion topic Faith from 03/25/2008 at 6:06 PM. As to when Jesus may decide healing may need to occur, she wrote:

We don't like to talk about it that way, but yes, the comfort and healing is sometimes going to heaven. I like to think of it as the ultimate cure.

The little I know about Lapanache would lead me to think he does not believe he is a perfect human specimen - physically, emotionally or spiritually. So, I would further surmise that he must be waiting for Psalm 103 to fully to come to fruition in his life at some future point.

Right?

7/10/2009 1:49:06 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Yes, Ryan,
I wrote that and stand on it now. As for whether all healing is prior to going to be with the Lord, I can only respond that Psalms 103 was written by David while he was among the living.

As for Lapanache, perhaps he should "renew" his mind as to what a perfect human specimen is in God's eyes. He may be closer than he thinks.

Abraham had a problem telling the truth about his wife. David had lust issues to the point of murder. Jacob walked with a limp and was a trickster. Moses had anger management problems. Issac went blind, etc.

7/10/2009 2:09:20 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy - In the eyes of God, Lapanache is 100 percent righteous due to having all of his sins forgiven when he accepted Jesus as his Savior and has been justified by the righteousness of Jesus.

However, of little importance - he is still not perfectly healthy here in this life.

7/10/2009 2:22:59 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I apologize.

I'm not sure what "perfectly healthy" is. But to answer your prior post. I agree that the human body is like poor plumbing, as soon as you fix one leak another springs up. Yes, we seem to need continual healing. But, the Bible says, "By His stripes we were healed." "Were" is past tense. God rested on the seventh day from all His work. We are already healed, but have to continually be reminded.

I dissagree with you concerning the thief who acknowledge Jesus on the cross. He did receive healing. Did Jesus not say to him, "This day, you will be with me in paradise" ? That's ultimate healing.

Who else?

I know He didn't go heal Lazarus prior to death, but then ...

7/10/2009 2:55:55 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

What's more interesting to me is that Lazarus was such a close friend to Jesus, that he got sick in the first place. There is no written event of anyone else close to Jesus getting sick, so, Lazarus was like the man born blind. It was to demonstrate His glory. When Jesus raised Lazarus up He said, "Didn't I tell you that you would see God's glory if you believe?"

7/10/2009 3:04:51 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Now I know how celebraties feel when news reporters take what they say out of context...

Ryan,

Why do you think physical healing was not high on Jesus' priority list?..

Everywhere Jesus went, He preached about the Kingdom of God AND healed all who were sick and oppressed of the devil at the same time.

It would seem that He put physical healing in pare with teaching and preaching about the Kingdom of God. I believe it was because salvation includes being saved from eternal death, and physical healing...I think they go hand in hand. As children of God we get both of them...

Not only did He make it a priority by doing that Himself, He also sent out the disciples and told them to do the same thing..

Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.....7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

In what many refer to as the Great Commission He commanded His disciples..Mark 15:16 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 theyb will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Below are just a very FEW instances in which scriptures refer to Jesus healing, not all but most, situations it was right after He taught them about the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 4:23-25 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.

Matthew 14:14 And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.

Matthew 15:30 Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus feet, and He healed them.

Matthew 19:2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

Matthew 21:4 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Luke 6:17 And He came down with them and stood on a level place with a crowd of His disciples and a great multitude of people from all Judea and Jerusalem, and from the seacoast of Tyre and Sidon, who came to hear Him and be healed of their diseases,

Luke 6:19 And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.

Luke 9:11 But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.

To be fair, Of course you are right in saying that God's ultimate desire is for us to be saved from our sins. That's kind of a no-brainer. But He also desires, based on what Jesus did, for us to be physically well too.

You're right our physical bodies will eventually succumb to death. But just like we can ask for and recieve forgiveness of our sins on a daily basis, we can also ask for and recieve healing for our bodies daily...

I know you don't know my testimony, but to just tell you a very small portion of it. The Lord has healed me supernaturally and instantaniously of 2 diseases, and another one I recieved over a period of time (about a year). I recieved them based on faith, not on my worthiness...simply based on His promise to heal all my sickness.

I don't know why He chose to heal me 2 times instantantly and it took
a year for the other..

Let me also say this...I would love the Lord with all my heart, with all my soul and with all my strength even if He let me suffer horribly with aweful diseases, sicknesses and infirmities...it's just that He has proven to me that I can love Him AND be healthy...

Why do you insist we are wrong to believe that? Don't you want to know your Father God wants you well?

I will also talk to more issues in your previous post...

By the way, I am a she...not a he...

7/10/2009 4:40:40 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache - I apologize for misstating your gender! The name fits a woman better, so I don't know how I became confused.

I'm also sorry if I misquoted you (although I could not locate that mistake).

I stand corrected about the importance of healing in Jesus' ministry. However, I hope we all agree that physical well being is almost nothing compared to what Mrs. Piggy has termed "the ultimate healing"!

Mrs. Piggy, we have no disagreement on the issue of the thief on the cross. I stated Jesus did not make any offer to quell his physical suffering while he was hanging on the cross but, Jesus did promise him the ultimate healing.

Lapanache, only three healings? I bet there are more instances of healing in your life than that.

I can come up with more than three healings in my life - which occurred during times when I had very little faith (Oh, my shame! Receiving so much mercy while having had so little faith!). And then there are all the times when I was delivered from the steady stream of life threatening jams I've been prone to creating.

Of course God wants all to be well for us! That is precisely why God works all to His glory - including physical illness.

Medical science confirms that some illnesses have a net positive effect on the body. However, our character development and spiritual growth are more important than our physical bodies - just about every Christian will testify that times of illness have been beneficial to those goals.

God loves us - He provides health for us while we walk the earth, until the appointed day arrives when He takes all physical health from us and gives us abundant life in heaven. Promises of physical healing don't keep a person vertical for too many years - that is a proven fact.

During Jesus' days on earth, the people wanted signs - so is true today. Jesus used many miraculous works to point to the glory of the Kingdom of God.

Blessed are those whose names are written in the Book of Life!

7/10/2009 7:26:49 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

It's ok...you didn't "misquote" me, which is why you couldn't find where you did...but I felt you took what I said "Can you find any place in scripture where Jesus didn't heal someone, for any reason other than a lack of faith?" out of context..

If you'll read the whole post again you will see I was talking about the people of Jesus' hometown Nazareth, and why not many miracles/healings were done there, which was due to their lack of faith in Him. They just thought of Him as the carpenters son...the guy down the street.

They did not believe Who He was or His message. And that lack of faith prevented them from coming to Him and recieving the message or physical healing...except a few who got out of the box and did.

However, I can certainly see why you answered it the way you did...I should have asked my final question this way..."Can you find any place in scripture where Jesus did not heal someone who came asking for physical healing?

My belief in a nut-shell...

I believe based on all the stories thoughout scripture of Jesus' ministry are a strong basis to believe that every single person who came to Jesus genuinely believing in both His message of the Kingdom of God AND that He would heal them of their physical sicknesses, diseases and infirmities recieved both spiritual healing (born-again) and recieved physical healing. Every single time...Every single person...No exceptions.

And... because He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever... Because He is NOT a respecter of persons (He does not pick and choose).... Because God's agape love for us transends time and place...that same spiritual healing AND physical healing is available today to every single person..every single time...No exceptions. The only prerequesite is faith. Be it unto you...according to your faith"

As to the subject of the thief... Luke 23:42 Then he (the thief) said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.

The thief didn't ask for physical healing...he asked that Jesus would remember him when He came into His Kingdom...that request was responded to and honored by Jesus...and you can be sure that when that man took his last breath he was transported and delivered perfectly whole in every way into Paradise/Heaven. The Ultimate Healing!! Amen...Amen!!

I do believe we all agree on that..I just needed to put my 2 cents in..:) smile

Ryan, there are a few things within your last post that I don't agree with entirely, but the 1 thing I need you to explain is.. what you mean by...."Medical science confirms that some illnesses have a net positive effect on the body" Do you believe that some illnesses are actually good for us? Yikes...I don't want to go to a Doctor that believes that...LOL..

I think I'll stick with the Great Physician...JESUS!! He didn't seem to think so...

7/11/2009 7:35:49 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Which illnesses have a positive effect. As the spirit needs the body to remain on earth, I think the health of the physical body is important to the Lord. And I would think He would want us to make a living sacrifice of a healthy body as opposed to a broke down one.

7/11/2009 3:19:10 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi Lapanache,

The lesson here is simple, sometimes God allows us to go through trails, whether psycological or physical. Job is a classic example. Why? I don't know, it depends on every individual trail I guess. But I trust Him because I know that He wants the best for me and will do whatever He has to to achieve the result in me that He wants.

Do I believe He wants everyone to be healed? Absolutely! But if you look at reality in real life, everyone does not get healed. Even the great men of faith like Smith Wigglesworth and John G lake did not have a 100 healing rate.

But that is not going to stop me from praying for people......

7/11/2009 9:35:17 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Ryan,

LOL...Yes the Lord has healed me many many more than 3 times...I don't live in absolute "Perfect Health", no one does..I still have aches and pains and the older I get the more things go south..:)smile...

But my health is far better than it should be based on how I have mistreated and misused this temple...His grace, mercy and agape love has covered my multitude of sin.

Maybe at some point, when I believe it is appropriate I will give more details of my life or my testimony...

But...those were just the 3 that tried to TAKE ME OUT! 2 of them could have killed me, the other 1 would have made it almost impossible for me to function and do what God has called me to do...satan attempted to TAKE ME OUT before my time..so I could not have stepped out into my destiny...

The first one was just supernatural...my faith had nothing whatsoever to do with that one, it was a freebee and came instantly and immediatly when I gave my life to the Lord.

The second one took about a year for me to experientially recieve...I had to fight the good fight of faith for that one.

By then I was convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Lord wanted me to live an abundant life which included being saved from all debilitating and life threatening diseases so I simply, with child-like faith believed and recieved healing for the third one.

Have a God-blessed day...

7/12/2009 7:01:25 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache - from your last post I could not tell if you believe you will live a life of the normal aging process or be in health until you are in heaven enjoying real abundant life. If disease doesn't take you out, watch out for cars or planes - they too can do a body damage.

Funny you should ask about helpful illnesses; yesterday morning I was reading an article about research done at the Washington School of Medicine. They infected mice with two strains from the herpes family and later exposed the same mice to lethal (for mice) doses of listeria and the bacteria which causes bubonic plague. In these mice, the herpes virus produced immunity to the two deadly diseases.

What's true of mice may not be true of men. However, their is much work being done which links some diseases to immunity to more threatening diseases. the ancients were aware that people who had recovered from certain illnesses (which we would now label virus) developed the ability (through immunity) to care for those who were suffering from the same illness.
I've traveled in parts of the world where the locals warned me not to swim in areas where they were not only swimming, but also collecting drinking water. They had built up immunity to those bacteria and parasites in the water which may have been lethal to me.

Parents of my generation can sometimes get a little freaky about keeping their precious young in sterile environments where a steady spray of anti-bacterial agent protects against every germ, and playmates' medical records must be scrutinized before they gain access to the play area. However, there is much current literature about children who are not exposed to allergens and bacteria in childhood are more likely to suffer immune deficiencies as adults.

Nevertheless, we are hopeless against disease apart from the Great Physician who will ultimately heal all.

7/12/2009 7:38:09 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Chrisv - I enjoyed your post. I like hearing accounts of healing. But, for some reason I'm more inspired by stories of people who demonstrated great praise and trust in God while they died waiting for their healing - and sometimes the accounts of those who came to Jesus because of their example.

There have been many wonderful people who God has used in His healing ministry - I agree they had cases where they thought the person would be healed on earth, but God's plan was to heal them in heaven. So troubling for me has been the accounts of the popularized faith healers who were proven to be fakes - or worse.

I also agree that our job is to continue praying for people!

I was healed of a terrible affliction while I was praying for someone else who had the same problem. I'm always amazed that I was healed having had so little faith, and that I was even able to pray for anyone in that state, since I thought I was so far gone.

Hallelujah; God does heal!

7/12/2009 7:40:29 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Chrisv,

I too enjoyed your post very much in deed...

You have what I would consider a wonderfully simple and uncomplicated way of describing your faith and complete trust in God...good for you. That pure simplicity inspires me.

Like you, I've studied men and women God has used to heal people primarily Smith Wigglesworth and Kathryn Kuhlman.

Both of them suffered with personal medical problems, and neither of them had what you call a complete healing rate..but neither of them let that stop them from continuing to pray for people to be healed.

It seems that each generation is given at least one person with the supernatural Gift of Healing...and Ryan is right when he reminds us to be mindful and leery because many have been found to be fakes or worse...

The Word does say you will know them by their fruit...

Regardless of how you feel about Benny Hinn's personal style. I believe he is at least one of the people God has given this Gift to for our generation.

Years ago, I went to one of his miracle crusades, and was really freaked out by all the Holy Spirit, spooky stuff that was going on. That was before I knew anything about the Holy Spirit...I used to call Him an "it". The churches I went to NEVER talked about the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact when you would even mention Him or the gifts all the air got sucked out of the room...Ghasp! So I was actually afraid of even talking about Him, much less ask for His help.

As confused and spooked out by the whole thing (the miracle crusade) ....I witnessed first-hand a true miracle happen for a lady who came with us.... She was deaf, and received her hearing.

She was with our group, and the next thing I knew she was up on stage giving her testimony of how God had touched her and healed her. Needless to say that got my attention.

Benny is controversial, just like both Smith and Kathryn were. Smith was considered to be physically brutal in the way he ministered to people in the beginning of his ministry...Kathryn was portrayed as being a Drama Queen and a little spooky. Both had personal weaknesses (sin) they struggled with...but each one of them produced fruit...Both had verifiable miracles produced in their ministries for God's glory.

So...bottom line. Like others I don't believe or even expect everyone will be healed, but for other reasons than you might think...

I don't claim to be able to determine ALL the reasons people don't get healed, and I'm really not trying to, but I have listened to many people over the years and almost everybody believes that God is "able" to heal them but they seem to get stuck at if God "will" heal them for various reasons..

To bring us back full-circle to what my original question here was. What was Paul's thorn? is a basis for some of those various reasons.

Some...NOT ALL of those reasons are;

1. They believe God is using the sickness to keep them humble.
2. They believe God is punishing them for sin of any kind.
3. They believe God caused their sickness as a way to teach them about grace.
4. They believe their sickness brings God glory so they keep it.
5. They don't want to be healed for various reasons

And I can just hear you thinking...so please let me explain...

Do our sicknesses humble us...Yes! There is nothing more powerful than a good brush with sickness or death to knock us off our high-horse and get us back on our knees.

Does our sickness teach us about grace...Yes!

Does our sickness bring God glory? Yes! Not because the sickness itself brings glory to God, but the way we choose to endure it and be a witness even under great challenges brings God glory. And result in inspiring others.

Ryan, you are right, I too have been inspired tremendously by some of the most beautiful testimonies of people who have not been healed and their lives and death has brought a great many to the One Who gives Ultimate Healing. Praise God!

To my last point...

Some don't want to be healed for various reasons...I don't mean to sound judgmental, or insensitive or anything even remotely like that, so please don't jump on me..

All I'm saying is that some precious people are so much in need of love and affection, and because they get that love, attention and affection because they are sick they don't "really" want to be healed because they fear loosing those benefits. And they may not even realize it themselves.

Some precious people are so beat up by life they hide behind their sickness as a way to withdrawal from life. It becomes their way of not having to participate in life.

Some are just simply tired of living, and want to go home to heaven, and in God's great mercy He allows that. I believe some even let you pray for them to be healed but are secretly wanting or hoping to die. The Lord actually revealed this to me on one occasion and sure enough that person died with a great big beautiful smile on their face. They were receiving the ULTIMATE HEALING. Glory to God!

At least for me all those other reasons lets me get my little pea-brain around why some don't get healed. For me, its better than just saying it's God's fault or because He is allowing it for some reason. To some that concept may lead people to believe God is a mean and unloving God. That He picks and chooses who gets healed and who don't.

That also fits perfectly with Jesus ministry on earth...He went about preaching about the Kingdom of God. Doing good by healing the sick and oppressed by the devil...some believed...some did not.

God doesn't want us to, but He allows us (freewill) to do anything we want to do, including going to hell if we choose not to receive what Jesus did on the cross as way of payment for our sins.

When I pray for people, and if I am able to, I ask them what they are believing God for. I have never been able to pray for and receive anything over and above what the person has the faith to receive.

If I'm not able to ask them, then I pray the highest, most inclusive prayer I can and trust the Holy Spirit to help them receive whatever portion of it they are able to.

I can pray till I'm blue in the face, but if that person won't receive it, I' am limited by what they will receive.

My main reason for starting this post was to give people hope who may have no hope. To in some small way relate to our discussions and be inspired or encouraged by our testimonies. To build up their faith to believe for the Lords healing touch. Some do want to be healed but for various reasons will never believe God for it due to these reasons or others.

7/12/2009 1:22:42 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ryan,

LOL...Thanks for the warning about the cars and airplanes...I'll keep a watch-out. And ask the Lord to command His angels charge over me.

God's willingness to keep me or anyone else in good health is not a fountain of youth...I'll get aches and pains, get slower with age, spend too much money buying stupid products in a vain attempt to cover up the wrinkles and mourn over things gone south.

However, so far even though I am (54)the oldest child of 3, I now look, feel younger and am now much healthier than my siblings who are 8 & 12 years younger than I am...Heart disease, High Cholesterol, Diabetes and Cancer run rampant in my family, on both sides (maternal and fraternal) along with many other generational curses.

You may ask how do I think I will die? My simple answer would be, very old and in my sleep, if the Lord tarries and does not come back for us in the Rapture first. Wouldn't that be cool???

Any time the news starts talking about swine, chicken, bird flu's or any other dumb thing I just claim in Jesus Name that none of those plagues will come neigh me. Others have been sick all around me, and I just don't get sick. If I get a symptom of something...I just come against it in Jesus Name and it flees...usually by the next day.

Some might call that luck, coincidence? Rose-colored glasses? Really not old enough to know what's ahead of me?...Maybe...but I still like to call it faith....by His stripes I am healed. Simple.

I love your posts...I always learn something new. The research you read about is fascinating. Isn't it cool that God has actually built into our very bodies an immune system? The way He made our bodies to build up defenses against the things in our environment is amazing...I actually consider that as one more reasons to believe that God wants us well...He's even built into our own bodies little thingys that swim around in there and attack the bad stuff.

I remember years ago on our honeymoon in Mexico we were warned against drinking the water so we wouldn't get Montezumas Revenge (diarrhea)...We didn't drink the water but ate fruit that had been washed in the water...Guess what? You guessed it....Honeymoon over...its funny now, but at the time it was anything but funny...that 2 hours plane ride home was "interesting. to say the least...LOL...We still crack up just remembering it.

I love what you said to Chrisv about receiving your healing while praying for someone else of the same thing you were being attacked with...Do you think that is a form of sowing and reaping? You were sowing prayers of health for someone else and reaped the benefit yourself...Wow!

7/12/2009 8:01:18 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,

God has been extremely merciful to me! I have no right to be so cynical but, I am; however, Im also expecting more growth. For some reason, the subject of healing still makes me very uncomfortable. I think it is mostly due to the way society views the faith healing charlatans and their dupes.

Your Montezuma's Revenge story reminded me of a time I was staying in Mexico City and some friends told me we were going to see "the healer dude". I didn't want to go because that stuff seemed so creepy - and I was healthy. My friends ignored my objections and we ended up at the healer's house anyway.

The healer was a nice guy - no show, no pretentious mumbo-jumbo; in fact he didn't even pray while we were there. Again, I felt fine; no health complaints at all. But, he looked me over, and then did a few arm and spine adjustments and then I felt GREAT!

After the spinal work he gave me a bowl of stew - which I was afraid of - but couldn't politely refuse. Although I'm no fan of tequila, when he offered me a bottle, I thought I should imbibe to protect me from the stew. Afterward, I needed healing from the tequila.

It turned out my friends were just using the healer as their chiropractor/masseuse but, they had tons of stories of people they knew who had received healing for a variety of problems after this guy gave them an adjustment.

In addition to being in awe of his physical ability, I was impressed that he would not accept money for his healing help - even though he was obviously very poor. He said he could not take money because this was a gift from God, so he was obligated to freely give it to those in need.

So, the Mexican healer dude is my integrity and humility benchmark for those who claim to have a healing gift. Therefore, I am very skeptical of everyone who does healing as a show and with big appeals for cash.

7/13/2009 7:43:05 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I wouldn't call what you describe as cynical at all...on the contrary, I would call it wisdom, and I hope every Christian would be on guard for that kind of thing too, or at least they should.

After reading your post several scriptures came to mind....

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 you will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

The above scripture is actually one I referred to earlier in a previous post when discussing this subject...

For me, the lesson is even though we are never to judge anyone or come to any quick conclusion regarding another persons motive. I am no mans judge, nor can I know their true motive, only God can.

On the other hand we should always use wisdom when it comes to completely trusting anyone at face value in the beginning.

I believe this scripture is the Lords way of teaching us to watch others over a period of time and observe them with an open mind to see if they produced good fruit (actions) that go hand in hand with the Great Commission. Which is to preach the Gospel, while going about doing good with signs following according to...Mark 16:15-20

Another scripture comes to mind...

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men.

In this scripture He was actually warning us to beware of or forewarned of others who would persecute us for the Gospels sake. But the principle is the same. Be careful. There are many who are not what they say they are...just because they say they are..::) smile tongue twister..

He warned us about false prophets, who would come preaching another gospel. I describe another gospel as teaching any other way that excludes Jesus as the ONLY way to God, or any "thing else" required in addition to Jesus as a way to God.

Jesus says I am the way, the truth, and the life.. No one comes to the Father but by Me. Nothing more Nothing less..

I don't go around on a vigilante crusade to root out charlatans, and scoundrels but I am always asking God for discernment to know one when I see one.

The Lord has often reminded me that just because I don't care for the messenger, does not mean I should reject the message.

Matthew 11:18-20 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He has a demon. 19 The Son of Man (Jesus) came eating and drinking, and they say, Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is justified by her children.

John didn't eat regular food nor did he drink anything with alcohol in it...Jesus came doing both with all the bad boys and girls in town...and Jesus' admonition was that wisdom would be determined by watching the result (fruit) of their action..not the actions themselves.

On the surface, many might presume that because your Mexican (healer-dude :) friend gave you tequila he was a charlatan a drunkard or worse...and shamefully forgetting that he had blessed many with good health due to his God-given gift...

To be honest I found the story a little weird and wonderful at the same time. But the bottom line is it built your faith..His actions produced your faith to grow. God led you to him to give you your gauge...to quote you.."So, the Mexican healer dude is my integrity and humility benchmark for those who claim to have a healing gift"

I love your story...thank you for sharing it..

The way I personally determine whether someone is the real thing or not is I watch them, listen to them over a period of time. What seems to be their "overall" message? Do they lead people to Christ? Are they getting people saved? Who are they magifiying..Themselves or Jesus?.....Are they rightly dividing the Word of God, or are they twisting it?..AND...If they are asking for my hard earned money and expect me to fork it over they better be able to show me evidence of the way they are using the money they have now..and it better be to help spread the gospel or forget it...No way Jose!!

Sometimes the answers to those questions can be subjective, but I listen the Holy Spirit, I've learned to wait and let Him give me some kind of confirmation in my spirit...

Keeping in mind we're listening and watching flawed human beings...who may have pure motives they just get it wrong sometimes..not on purpose but just because their human and blow it...just like I do every day of my life.

I would hope that people wouldn't judge me too quickly but watch me and listen to me before coming to any conclusions as to whether I can be trusted.

I've known others who are "genuine", but maybe "genuinely wrong" about certain things...Quite frankly I could be genuinely wrong too...which is why I liked what you said when you said.."I'm expecting more growth"...me too.

I know more today than I did 5 years ago, and hope to know more 5 years from now...we are all growing..We are all searching for the truth, the whole truth...and nothing but the truth....and that is a never ending process while we are here on the earth..Only when we step into eternity with our Jesus will we know ALL the truth..But we should continue to ask, and seek...because Jesus says we will find what we are looking for.

7/13/2009 1:57:59 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

It sounds to me like Lapanache believes that anyone who does not receive healing in this life is a victim of themselves, that they are basically self sabotaging and rejecting the healing of our Lord. I have a real problem with that theology. My faith is stronger now than it was when the Lord healed me of cocaine addiction, stronger than when my addiction to alcohol was taken away, and stronger than when I was healed of an addiction to pornography. I have survived major head trauma, scarlet fever, pneumonia and through all of these my faith in our Lord was weaker than it is today. I would love to be healed of my injuries, but the Lord has told me to be patient. He has assured me that He is at my side each step of the way, and I know that He bears the greater portion of my pain Himself, but His grace needs to be sufficient for me at this time. I am content and find joy in walking side by side with my Lord. Each day He gives me strength to make it through to the next. Yet you suggest that it is my fault that healing has not taken place at this time. Every event in my life has served to teach me something of our awesome God, and they have also served to draw me into direct dependence upon Him. I am a thick headed Irishman and His methods have served well in bringing me to where I can serve Him. I praise God that He has not instantly healed me every time because I don't want to see Him as being so small as to jump to my every request. Just like a small child I do not always know what is best for me, but my Papa knows and He wants nothing less for me than the best. My faith is in His wisdom!

Blessings upon you!

7/14/2009 1:17:02 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Hi kcgodlyman,

You made some excellent points and I liked how you expressed them!

I was surprised I agreed with so many of the reasons people may not receive healing, which were in the post you referenced. On the other hand, I thought of a few cases of healing not being received which I thought had not been explained by that post.

I appreciate your experiences and patient waiting.

I connected with your comment about God not being so small that He would jump at your every whim. I understand some people would say all we must do is believe His word and claim His promises - this is true and I need to be better at doing that.

However, the King-on-a-String approach seems so disrespectful. God is faithful to His Word; but, we cannot put Him on our time table.

I feel that failure to state, up front, that God will heal, or deliver on any promise, according to His will (which means we sometimes wait, or die waiting) - is a misrepresentation of God and cruelly misleading to desperate people.

On another note:

On Sunday night I was on the beach with a friend. We were hoping to see the space shuttle launch. When that didn't happen and after we exhausted all information we knew about that mission, I tried to shift the subject to healing.

My friend, who is an atheist, said he was called into work at his hospital late Friday night because a 17 year-old boy had died of an aneurism.

This tragedy meant healing for dozens of people who would be receiving the organs, skin and bone donations from the deceased.

I don't know if the 17 year-old was a Christian, but that is plausible since we live in the southernmost notch of the US Bible Belt.

He and his family may have been faithfully and rightly trusting God for his protection from what ever - prior to the event. An aneurism is usually not something you see coming; definitely not in someone so young.

My friend's job includes pre-transplant counseling of patients and he is usually the one to call patients to let them know a suitable organ has been donated so they can rush in for transplant surgery.

Since he spends so much time with patients and their families before they get their transplant, he is aware that many of them are desperately praying for healing.

Many of these folks die before an appropriate organ donor is found.

Those who do receive their healing because an organ has been donated, do so because someone else lost their life (except in some kidney cases).

Often, the most viable organs come from young people.

I also thought about the heartbreak of parents who suffer the loss of an infant. Of course nothing could be said of the failure of the faith of the infant, or the desire of the parents to have that baby live - yet many believing parents have buried tiny caskets.

Then there are the cases of young children dieing. Few things are as pure as the faith of a child. Yet many youth have gone to their grave trusting God would take care of them (and He has!).

I'm confident that God has plans regarding life and death - we must accept that His decisions and timing are good!

7/14/2009 2:48:05 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Lapanache,

So, my story was "a little weird and wonderful" - I gratefully accept that endorsement.

I'm pleased that you did not reject the Mexican healer dude as just a practitioner of a physical science - and that you seem to be open to him being a real-deal, gifted-by-God healer.

Actually, I will add to my story that this man is a devout Christian who believes God lets him know what type of physical touch people need.

And, that is another contrast between this man and the healer-showmen - his repertoire is all about giving physically beneficial touch to the back and limbs, where as the prevailing style on television is hands to the forehead or shoulders, with a backward push from the healer.

Where did those popular moves come from? Certainly not from 1 Corinthians 12 or Jesus' example! I think my guy gets some fruit points for originality.

In another discussion, I recall someone mentioned attending a healing class. I thought then, should I ever be allowed to address a class on healing, I would give the students my perspective, which is - the right push on the back is far better than any push back.

And, speaking of classes; years ago I took an art class from a professor who had an aggressive focus on students challenging each other toward greater creativity. Every class would begin with a whacko group connecting activity.

One day my assignment was to hold in my hands, the back of a female student's head, while other students supported various parts of her body. Upon completion of our group connecting exercise the woman grasped my hands, looked deeply into my eyes and blurted, "You have a gift for healing!"

When I realized she showed no sign of joking, I stifled my smirking, but I still thought, "That's a unique but freaky pick-up line".

Today, I don't believe I'm gifted in healing anymore than I did the day that woman proclaimed it so.

However, if I may attempt to further draw on my last post under Spiritual Gifts - perhaps all Christians, regardless of whether they are gifted in healing, or not - should be washing the feet of the walking wounded of the world (at least metaphorically) - instead of leaving the healing to the gifted.

Surely, people who are hurting need more comforting touches from their neighbors rather than a flashy show from a flamboyant personality.

7/14/2009 2:56:45 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hi Ryan,

Your comments are gratefully received. You are very thoughtful and it is a joy to read your posts. I love your story about your friend as it brings some memories of my own to mind.

I hope my tone in my last post was not too strident, I just object to the idea of God being bound by our prayers. It is His will over any other will and as long as our prayers are based within His will He answers, but the answer is not always the one we expect. Anyway, I hope I didn't offend as that was not intended.

I should add that I do believe that God grants the gift of healing to many members of His body, but I keep in mind that healing comes in many forms. For example, if I receive hope and patience from the counsel of a friend and this results in my mental attitude changing then I would view that as healing, although maybe not completely in a biblical sense. I realize that my example also would fall under exhortation, but the healing aspect is very valid as well.

Enough of my rambling, I just want to say that I am enjoying this forum immensely and thank everyone that has been participating.

Blessings upon you!

7/14/2009 3:53:50 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

I didn't find your post "strident" at all..As a matter of fact I found it to be wonderful! ....I percieved it as being full of passion!

For me there's nothing sadder than a lukewarm Christian who has no opinion that could maybe - possibly - rock the boat....So I applaud your willingness to disagree and stand up for what you believe.

In starting this post, I had hoped to get some passionate discussion going..so here we are...

The thing that I am most impressed with is your amazing - jaw-dropping testimony...You are a walking talking miracle! If anyone has a right to stand up and give your "passionate" opinion on how to recieve God's healing touch, for anything...it's you.

What you have trusted God for and recieved would leave a lot of people (including me) in your dust!!

That little mustard seed of faith has made the mountains in your life get up and be thrown into the sea!!

Thank you Jesus!!...

7/15/2009 5:08:00 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ryan,

As usual your posts always give more food for thought...Great!

As to your Mexican healer-dude...I learned along time ago to never expect God to operate in what "I" might want to call a conventional way...Doing so is like trying to put God in a box.

By me saying your healer dude was weird AND wonderful was meant to be a compliment...Jesus did some pretty weird and wonderful things too.

Case in point...John 9:6 He (Jesus) spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing

I don't know about you, but that's weird to me. Can you just imagine being there watching that? Or being the blind guy? I bet there were some people standing around shaking their head, rolling their eyes and re-thinking whether they wanted to be next in line for a healing..:) But of course the results (fruit) of that was a miracle.

So who am I to judge someone elses way of expressing what they believe God has called them to do?...I say again I try not to look at the method as much as the results (fruit), as listed in my prior post.

I've seen those guys on TV push the people down, and quite frankly I have a tendancy to think its over the top too. However, I do believe true miracles have happened in some of those ministries. What's more weird. Pushing someone down or making a spit/mud ball and putting it on their eyes and face?

I was at a Christian conference a couple of months ago, and I stood up in line for prayer. The person came by and popped me on the forehead...and I hit the ground...Bam! I didnt get anything, but embarrassed. I didnt feel what others refer to as falling out in the Spirit, or anything at all I just got up, dusted myself off and slunk back to my chair

I could have gone away from there assuming that the person who popped me or anyone else who says they did receive something from an experience like that is a charlatan, deceived, or worse. But should I? Just because something didnt happen to me, does that mean it won't for someone else? Just because it's weird and over the top for me, does that mean others have to stay or operate within what I call normal?

King-on-a-String? Ouch! just saying that bothers me. Oh, I hope I never give that impression, because that is disrespectful...worse than disrespectful in my opinion. Ive also heard that kind of thinking referred to as acting like our Heavenly Father as being a personal Santa Claus. Thats just as repugnant to me.

As to your conversation with the guy on the beach.

Those stories and others like them are so heart wrenching...and Ive often thought about those kinds of things myself. Why do babies die?..Why are they born with deformities? Why do some people seem to be born with silver-spoons in their mouths, while others starve to death in unthinkable circumstances? Why was I born in a country that throws away more food in a week, than some people has access to in a year? Why do I have water to waste while others around the world pray for a well close by their home so they dont have to walk miles for theirs?. Why do I have access to the best medical services in the world, while others die of what I consider a no big deal? Why?...There are just so many unanswered whys

As I read my bible sometimes in my nice little comfortable world, the Lord reminds me there is a precious woman on the other side of the world in aweful circumstances reading the same bible. What is she praying for? I am reminded There go I, but by the grace of God

7/15/2009 1:55:15 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ryan/kcgodlyman,

I wanted to respond to observations/comments both of you have mentioned in several of your posts...in various ways. For example, when you refer to the importance of helping "the walking wounded" and needing "friends who need our comforting touch..." etc...

You're right when you infer that emotional healing is just as important if not more important than physical healing in many cases. You're preachin to the choir!

After many years of being beaten up by life; not to mention my own rebellion and stupidity. I came back to a group of Christians who describe our church as a "Hospital for Hurting People"

We have a wonderful program called Celebrate Recovery (CR), you may have heard of it, which is based on the AA's 12 step program.

In the secular AA program they refer to a "higher power". That higher power could be anything/anybody. In doing so it makes sure anyone, including those with varied or no faith affiliation can come and be helped to overcome the addiction to alcoholism...Its a wonderful program.

CR, even though based loosely on the same 12 steps identifies the higher power as Jesus, and is based on scriptures and biblical truths.

Our CR program doesn't stop at Alcoholism, but goes on to include Drug addiction, Physical, Emotional and Sexual abuse victims, Divorce, Grief due to the death of a loved one, Cancer patients (both survivors and those that still have the disease), Adult children of Alcoholics... and just people who are in emotional pain...all under the watchful eye of an on-staff licensed therapist.

Even though I didnt have any addictions left by then other than to cigarettes, I did come with a whole lot of emotional pain resulting in the fact that I grew up with an abusive and alcoholic father, and a mother so beat down by her own pain there was little left of her for nurturing her children. I turned to alcohol, drugs, sex, food and any number of other things trying to dull that pain and fill that void.

I grew up, married a wonderful man, opened and operate my own successful business. I had achieved the so-called American Dream. I did receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior when I was in my mid 20s but my childhood pain remained alive and well.

And even after all that success I still felt unworthy, rejected and abandoned, and so I fit perfectly into CRs Adult Children of Alcoholics category.

I spent the first year in recovery as the walking wounded and all I needed was a friend to comfort meI not only rededicated my life back to my precious Jesus, but I found friends who were going through the same struggles I was. Who knew first-hand what my pain was like, and that empathy and sympathy saved my life...metaphorically speaking.

So I do know first hand about the miracle of being healed emotionally by the Lord and just how crucial that is. Over the course of a couple of years, with Gods help who has held my hand and walked me one hard day after another until I finally got back on track. I actually went on to become a mentor, accountability partner and sponsor for many other women who came to us for various reasons.

The Lord has been gracious to me and has so far used me to facilitate 8 different womens groups at our church teaching various subjects. Im on the prayer team, started an on-line site to study the Book of Luke in preparation for our fall session in which we will study the book of Acts and Im in the process of writing a book called "Who I am in Christ"..

The only reason I mention the above part of my testimony is to assure you that I do know the importance of the miracle of emotional healing. Im the living, breathing, walking, talking and grateful result of its effects and I give the Lord all the praise, all the glory and all the honor for it. Without Him I would still be a "walking wounded".

Gods grace and mercy most assuredly covers all the parts of us that need healing. Spiritually, Emotionally and Physically...

I believe the Lord came and died to give all of them to us

7/16/2009 1:33:52 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

"And these signs will accompany those who believe..." Luke 16:16
"They will be able to place their hands on the sick and heal them." Luke 16:18

In the Booik of Luke, these were Jesus' final words before ascending to heaven. I've been taught to pay careful attention to final words. The way this reads to me is the person placing their hands on the sick should believe.

Just my dimes worth. Inflation!!

7/16/2009 3:23:17 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

mrspiggy,

I love that scripture...I do believe you meant to say Mark 16:15-20.

Many refer to these scriptures as the GREAT COMMISSION...and I too refer to it many times.

I agree...these were Jesus' last words before He ascended back to heaven...and it was His way of putting all His teachings in a "nut-shell"..and I love verse 20 when it says that they went out and did just that with those signs following them...We are commanded to do the same thing..and expect those very same results as well.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit can give what Paul taught about in 1 Corinthians 12 the Gift of Faith, or the Gift of Healing...and then "that" supernatural Gift of "Faith" or "Healing" would heal the sick without the sick having faith.

So far, I don't think He has ever given those supernatural Gifts to me. I have been used by the Lord to lay hands on the sick and see them recover according the Mark 16:18, but it was in combination with their faith to receive it.

Or maybe I have received it, and didn't know it. Because I have prayed for others, without, laying my physical hands on them and they did recover.

I did pray believing for a man who had been diagnosed with blocked arteries in his heart..but when he went back to have the procedure to remove them the blockage was completely gone...The doctors and nurses were very confused..they thought the records had been mixed up or something..I do believe the Lord answered my prayer for him without me even being there.

Jesus had more faith than anyone, but He told many people. "According to "Your" faith be it unto you"....."Your" faith has made you well..

I believe there are 3 ways a person can receive healing..

1. The Holy Spirit will give the supernatural Gifts, as He wills, and the sick will be healed. 1 Corinthians 12.

2. In other cases the prayer of agreement (2 or more people believing) heal the sick.

3. A person can just believe for themselves without having anyone laying hands on them or agreeing with them.

7/17/2009 5:44:32 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,

Thank you for catching my goof. I just had teeshirts printed with Luke 8:50 "Just believe", on them and still had Luke on the brain.

Yes, Jesus did indeed honor the faith of the person being healed. Which leads me back to Luke 8:50. The father had faith which is why he went to Jesus, but it was the daughter who was sick. When the centerion went to Jesus to "send the word" to heal his soldier, the sick soldier was not recorded as having faith. Everyone who has faith, has it as a gift. The Bible says every man has been given a measure of faith. My favorite is the mother who was refered to as a dog, who came to Jesus for healing for her daughter. Now, she had faith!!

7/17/2009 2:38:07 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

mrspiggy...

I stand corrected...You are absolutely right!...

Thank you...Thank you!!... How could I have lost site of that???

For so long I have been trying so hard to inspire and encourage people to have faith for themselves, that I did loose site of what you've brought back to my attention here.. Halleluiah!!

When I needed the Lord's healing touch there was no one around who "really" believed that I could be healed. I was left to either believe for myself or stay sick or die.

You just gave me another level of faith that I can now believe for

Oh! I cant tell you just how grateful I am Thank you mrspiggy and Thank you Jesus!!

7/17/2009 3:05:42 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Praise God you believed for yourself!!! I do know the feeling. When I stroked in 2006, I had nobody near to "touch & agree" with me the first day in the hospital. My hubby was at work and two of his sisters came to the hospital. I HAD to believe for myself. I told the doctors, "I shall live and not die and declare the work of the Lord." My sisters-in-law said I was mean. I told them, no, I'm adamant. Every woman in my family who'd had a massive stroke was in the grave and I wasn't going there yet. Praise God for His faithfulness. I learned years ago that He honors faith above prayer. The words I spoke came straight from the Holy Spirit. I lived because I believed what I said would come to pass.

7/17/2009 3:24:20 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

mrspiggy,

It is soooo wonderful to be able to have someone I can talk to who has your level of faith for physical healing...

There are just so many precious people who, for various reasons...either can't or won't believe for themselves..and as much as I enjoy debating the issue it's a real blessing and pleasure to have someone who "gets" what I know in my heart to be true..

Oh...I just can't get over how in the world I had lost site of what you so wonderfully brought back to my attention!! I really had gotten lost in my attempts to encourage others to believe for themselves...I did forget about all those wonderful stories you reminded me of.

Thanks again...I can't wait to start putting "my" faith in action for those who can't believe for themselves...

7/17/2009 4:28:03 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I only "get" what you're saying by grace.

"Jesus went about healing ALL who were sick and oppressed by the devil...Not some, not only a select few, not only those who were worthy, not only those who were perfect and sinless, but ALL OF THEM. Every single one of them. "

You wrote this on 07/04, but, I have heard these exact words spoken in a Faith & Healing class last year. There is no such thing as coincidence. It is confirmation of the truth. God bless you, Lapanache. And heal you of every infirmity.

Another thing mentioned was that God allows sickness and disease to humble us and draw us to Him. I don't think so. I was already humble and sitting at His feet when I stroked. It was the enemy trying to take me out. He comes ONLY to kill and steal and destroy. But Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy and to give life more abundantly.

7/17/2009 8:10:29 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

mrspiggy,

Of course it's satan...he's a liar and the father of all lies (and deception)....

Tell me about your Faith and Healing class...

7/18/2009 4:45:32 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

The world has been hammered with sickness, and every type of adversity.

The world does know how to tuff out trials.

However, only Christians can ride atop the wave of any affliction with joy, while trusting God's will is good.

What a bright and beautiful light we are called to be to the world!

7/18/2009 5:29:59 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Lapanache and Mrspiggy,
I hear what each of you is saying and I "get" it as well. I have personally witnessed great triumphs of God over illness and have seen His healing come with the laying on of hands, my hands being included in this. I have seen the deaf restored to hearing through my prayers and touch. I watched a man who's heart and breathing had stopped come back as I prayed over him. However, I still think you ignore the fact that God allowed Job to go through his trials until His heart was aligned with God's. We can watch Job come back from the abyss and reach out to God with all his heart and then the healing takes place. Paul lost his eyesight and it was restored when he responded in faith to what Jesus told him, and in the process he learned both humility and the necessity of leaning on God. Having been a prideful man most of my life, I know how hard it is for God to reach the prideful until that pride has been humbled.
I trust that God will heal my affliction when His timing is right, and not my timing. I believe with all my heart that I am being drawn even closer to Him during this time of suffering. It is cruel for someone to suggest that my healing has not taken place simply because my faith is not strong enough, or worse, that I may be blocking that healing because I enjoy the love and attention I receive as a result of my injury. What I enjoy is my hours spent in communing with my Lord as I await His healing touch. As I pointed out in an earlier post, my faith is far stronger now than it was when I received healing from our Lord in the past, and there was no one coming alongside me in prayer in those days.
Our Lord is gracious and loving. He knows what is best for all His children and sometimes that means telling us either No or Not yet. Job's friends were ready to condemn Job telling him that his affliction was a result of his sinful pride; it becomes painfully clear to the reader that his friends were sadly mistaken, and they hurt their friend in their attempts to "help" him with their observations.

7/18/2009 8:33:36 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

To my understanding, Job was "restored" upon praying for his friends. It is not for me to venture a suggestion as to your reason for healing or not. All I know is that God id faithful even when we aren't. He cannot deny Himself. His Word says He heals ALL our diseases. And, His Word says "He is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent. Has He not said it, will He not do it? Did He speak it? Will He not bring it to pass."

Lapanache,

It is not my class, but a class that I attend each week at my church. Which also is not mine, but I am a member of.

7/18/2009 1:30:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I don't presently "get' a lot about healing. I'd hope a conversation with others would help clarify a few points.

We all agree Jesus heals ALL.

However, we don't agree on the when.

When someone suggests all healing has already taken place, I can comprehend that in the context that Jesus has already paid the price for all and forever remains victorious.

However, there are those who will admit that some people must wait until they're in heaven to receive healing. Others will quote scriptures about promises of healing and God's faithfulness to His Word while insisting all these promises must be fulfilled here and now.

But to further complicate the matter, a talented few people simultaneously take both positions.

Does anyone else think it is religious malpractice to promise people healing - if they just have faith BUT neglect to tell them they will receive their healing according to God's gracious plan - which includes His time schedule?

Jesus delivered healing and grace.

When Paul sought to be delivered from whatever his thorn was, God told Paul His grace was sufficient. Shouldn't we also say the same to suffering people?

7/20/2009 5:13:09 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Thank you Ryan, you have stated very simply and clearly what I have been trying to state. It is "religious malpractice" to promise healing without clarifying that it is all in God's hands and that we never force God's hand.

Jesus allowed His friend Lazarus to die in order that the Father be glorified in his resurrection from the dead. There are times when He will allow an illness to continue for a time so that when the healing does take place it will be abundantly clear that it was the Lord's doing - not man's. Sometimes our promised healing is in going home to be with the Lord, and if that is to be the case for me then I accept that with all joy and gratitude.

Blessings to all!

7/20/2009 9:44:55 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Thanks for the words of support kcgdlyman! I'm glad I'm not alone in that line of thought.

In the spirit of striving for more understanding, I'll share another thing I'm not getting today:

What is laying on of hands and the gift of healing?

I have never been known for thriftiness. However, just early this morning, it occurred to me I must become frugal for the sake of laboring to share the Gospel.

Thriftiness doesn't come naturally to me, but there is much hope because I can be tight-fisted when it comes to some spiritual matters.

For example, in regard to healing, I say why bother with a middle man, or woman.

Heal direct!

Scripture tells us to go to the elders for them to lay hands on us, and instructs us to lay hands on those in need of healing. That's great, because God has given me so much:

I'm blessed with a wife who has loving hands to embrace me, and children to lay caring hands on me when sickness and old age comes.

I have a pastor and a church to lay guiding hands on me. I can be touched through the encouragement and instruction of members here at DIJ.

God has also supplied the supportive hands of friends and the skillful hands of physicians to lay into the perplexities of the body.

Best of all, God gives grace - so I can go directly to Him for what I need.

When it comes to desiring a miracle, I could only go to God.

I could invite my family, friends, church and community to join me in asking God for healing. But, if I went to one of those fancy faith healers, would I be acting on less faith than if I single-mindedly sought God's intervention?

No one, including the faith healers, would suggest that healing comes from anyone but God. So, am I wrong to see them as a potentially costly frivolity (mostly in terms of faith, but sometimes cash too)?

I think we all agree that the laying on of hands and the gift of healing are NOT required for healing to take place.

So, what is the purpose of the laying on of hands and the gift of healing?

The Bible provides so little information to DEFINE spiritual gifts. Yet, we've developed an impressive industry to elaborate on the meaning of each gift.

In my new-found pursuit of thriftiness, I don't care to buy a book on spiritual gifts. Since I already have a Bible, can anyone direct me to the scriptures which describe, in depth, laying on of hands and the gift of healing?

Obviously the laying on of hands is used one way in Luke 4:40 and the opposite way in Luke 21:12. If it is merely a symbolic stance that may be used while praying, and not absolutely necessary for healing to take place, perhaps believing minds should put gifted hands to practical work.

Can anyone demonstrate from scripture that the laying on of hands and the gift of healing is something other than Christians physically caring for and praying for God's will over the suffering?

7/20/2009 2:31:48 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I'm sorry I haven't responded to yours or others last several posts... but I will in due time...

For now, I will respond quickly to part of this last one above...

First let me say, I agree 100 percent with not needing a middle-man..That's why I spend so much time trying to encourage and inspire others to have faith for themselves. People are not always available at the mid-night hour when we need them, so we must learn to go to the throne for ourselves.

Have you ever heard the saying...."Go to the throne, not the phone" ?.. I use it all the time, it's just my fun way of saying that you don't need me or anyone else..all you need is God.

The moment Jesus died on that Cross, the veil that led into the Holy of Holies was rent in two. Before that only the priests were allowed into the presence of God on behalf of the people..Now we have the wonderful privilege of coming confidently, in Jesus Name, to the throne of grace to receive what we need ourselves. So personally. I agree we don't "have" to have anyone else to go to God on our behalf. I must be frugal too. :)

On the other hand, others may need someone to agree with them. They need that loving hand of a trusted friend or elder to help them receive what they need, and there's no shame in that. There is nothing more precious than a dear friend who is willing to come to our side and help us along the way.

I do want to address some of your other points, but don't have enough time right now to respond.

7/20/2009 3:49:56 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Wait, there's more I don't get:

Who is sovereign in your life?

I wholeheartedly believe that everyone participating in this discussion submits to God as the supreme authority in their life.

However, some of the wording used in this type of discussion is somewhat new and confusing to me.

So, sometimes I read clichés and wonder if it sounds like Satan, Self or God is sovereign in the life of the writer.

For example, a DIJ first for me is the phrase:
Satan comes to steal, destroy and kill.

Now, I know that statement to be completely true. But, when I read it in the healing related context, I wonder if the author kind of thinks that Satan could actually steal, destroy or kill someone who has been purchased by Jesus and born of imperishable seed?

I'm grateful that I've learned a bit about praying scripture.

But, when I read someone state that they proclaimed their healing to be by claiming the promises of certain scriptures, I wonder if they know it sounds like they are saying they were healed because of what they did. Could someone really claim their healing if it was the day God had appointed for them to die?

I very much believe in free will however, I believe the sovereign God ordains all in our life. He may not cause sickness, but He certainly allows and uses it (again, the examples of Job & Paul referenced by kcgodlyman).

A sovereign God who loves us and makes order of all things - including illness - to bring them to good, is very much what the grace which was sufficient for Paul is all about.

7/20/2009 3:53:45 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I'm not sure anyone can reduce spiritual matters to human terminology. The spiritual gifts are located in I Corinthians 12, but they existed before Paul described them. Look back on all the prophets of the OT. Abraham had the gift of faith,Solomon the gift of wisdom. David the gift of knowledge, Elijah had the gift of prohesy, healing, faith, wisdom and knowledge to name a few.

I believe the purpose of laying on hands started in the OT, when the fathers blessed their sons, they laid hands on them. It is symbolic of transfering from one to another. Why God set it up that way, I don't know. There are numerous accounts of Jesus healing by laying on hands.

Healing is God's will or Jesus would not have gone around healing people. He said, "I only do what I see My Father doing." John 5:19

As for the when of the matter, it is done when you ask believing. We must remember we exist in time, God, the Father, is timeless. I love the terms, "in the fullness of time", "suddenly", "immediately", "now".

We were all created on the sixth day, on the seventh day, God rested from all His work. Genesis 2:2 Jesus, my Lord, said on the cross, "It is finished."

Jesus said to lay hands on the sick and they will recover in Mark 16:18. I guess that's why He stipulated the signs would follow those who believe. He knew there would be Christians who would not believe certain aspects of His teaching. Many people don't believe in healing gifts or any of the others. We treat God's Word like a take-out menu. Either it's all true or none of it is.

Ryan,
I'll take that challenge. I have to look up the scripture, but, there is the story of the man with leporacy who was told to go dip himself in the river for healing. I don't think anyone touched him.

7/20/2009 4:30:10 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan,

You have too read John 10:10. Jesus said it, so, it must be possible.

7/20/2009 4:37:22 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ok, it's 2Kings chapter 5. Naaman, a mighty warrior suffered from leprosy. His wife's maid told her mistress that Naaman should go see the prophet, Elisha. Not only did Elisha not lay hands on him, he didn't even meet him, just sent the word to him to go wash in the Jordan River. So, I don't think it was "caring for" involved, nor did Elisha pray for God's will, because he knew it was God's will to heal Naaman.

7/20/2009 4:54:53 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

"But, when I read someone state that they proclaimed their healing to be by claiming the promises of certain scriptures, I wonder if they know it sounds like they are saying they were healed because of what they did. Could someone really claim their healing if it was the day God had appointed for them to die?"

Ryan,

Proclaiming healing based on the promises of God cannot possibly sound like the person healed caused it. Could it be that obedience to and faith in God's word caused the healing. Isn't there a scripture where someone in Peter's shadow was healed?

The Bible states that God esteems His Word above all. It does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it was sent. Jesus said, "Ask, seek and knock". He also said, "When you ask, believe you receive." I'm just following instruction.

7/20/2009 5:21:33 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

What is the purpose of spiritual gifts? Is it not to convince people that God is real? If I tell someone about God he might believe me, but if God performs a miraculous act through me that cannot be explained, the man will definitely believe me. THAT is the purpose of spiritual gifts.

God is not a discerner of men so everyone is the same in His eyes, right? So that means that an uneducated shepherd in Africa has the same access to God (and His power) than a highly educated pastor in America.

That means that Spiritual gifts and the operating thereof must be very simple, that is why Paul talks about it as the foundation in Heb 6:1-2. The reason we see so little of it in the church is because most Christians love to talk about it and try to reason it out, but never practice it OUTSIDE of the walls of the church. That is why you have to read Mar 16 15-18. According to Jesus there are TWO conditions to operate in the gifts:
1. You must preach the Gospel in the World (not just in the church) AND
2. You must believe.

Everyone can operate in the gifts of healing, knowledge, faith etc. The gifts are there to confirm that the Gospel is real, BUT because you can operate in the gift of Prophecy it does not make you a Prophet. Prophets are called by God.

Let me warn you, long conversations about healing and when does God heal KILLS YOUR FAITH. If you stand in front of a person to pray for him/her for a sickness and you start thinking about Pauls thorn and is it Gods will to heal this person your faith is dead and you can just as well go home!

It is simple, Jesus says in John 14:12-14 that you can ask for anything and He will do it. So pray for people! Stop all wondering and intellectual reasoning and pray for people! If a person is not healed after you prayed him, pray again! And again! However many times it takes. God does not lie, you must just decide if you are going to believe Him or not!

I dont care how many times I must pray for a person, they will get healed! If they die before healing took place, let them take it up with God in heaven! My job is to pray for people and tell them about Jesus, nothing more!

7/20/2009 7:13:52 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Hebrews 6:1-3
1-3 So come on, let's leave the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on "salvation by self-help" and turning in trust toward God; baptismal instructions; laying on of hands; resurrection of the dead; eternal judgment. God helping us, we'll stay true to all that. But there's so much more. Let's get on with it!

According to the scripture above Paul included "laying on of hands" as a foundational truth. According to scriptures throughout the bible ..laying on of hands was considered basic Christianity 101. (Baby food)

Do you realize that by questioning the validity of laying on of hands you are suggesting that Jesus did something wrong? He laid hands on the sick many times throughout His ministry..and He gave us the command and authority to do the same thing...

7/20/2009 7:18:15 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

The world needs to see Jehovah Rophe, God our Healer in action...If we don't believe for and show real, verifiable and tangible evidence of a REAL God...who REALLY does keep His promises...If we don't, then the world only sees us as fools believing in a fairy tale...

What better way to keep a lost and dying world from coming to the Cross of Christ and receiving everything Jesus bought and paid so dearly to give us, than to make sure the Body of Christ is deceived?

As long as he (satan) can keep us (the Body of Christ) believing lies and deceptions, or keep us stuck in Christianity 101...he continues not only steal from us, kill us and destroy us personally, (John 10:10) but that gives him free reign to say to the world..."See, their no better off than you are"

He has not changed his tactics in thousands of year. It's the same thing he pulled and got away with in the Garden of Eden..."Did God REALLY say....?

Adam and Eve fell for it hook, line and sinker and opened the door for all man-kind to do the same thing; Question God.

I can just hear him saying "Did God REALLY say...by His stripes we were healed?"..."Did God REALLY say Jesus went about healing ALL who were sick and oppressed by the devil?."

Wouldn't it be just like him to say "Oh come on now, He surely didnt mean you, after all you dont deserve it, you have a lesson to learn" or "Yeah, He might have said that, but He REALLY didnt mean what you think He said".. or "He surely didnt mean everybody, after all not every body gets healed"

Which leads me to another reason why people don't receive physical healing. Some look at and point to others who did not receive healing. And it can lead them to believe that God is a respecter of persons. It leads them to believe that God does pick and chooses who gets healed and who doesn'. Could it be possible that those other people that didnt receive a healing were deceived?

Other reasons I've thought of since my past post; some, for whatever reason, dont think God heals today, they believe that physical healing is not meant for us while we are here on earth, but is something that must always be waited for until we get to heaven. But if that were true then Jesus would have never prayed for the sick or told us to... that would have been a cruel trick.

Another reason; sometimes illnesses do not go away instantly or immediately. A real prayer of faith can be offered and heard by God and answered, but because the healing doesn't manifest before our very eyes we think it didnt work. So here comes satan and says.."See, that didnt work, you still hurt, you still have all the symptoms" But we are told to fight the good fight of faith. We are to walk by "faith" not by sight.

Sometimes those planted seeds of faith need time to grow, but because we believe the lie satan whispers in our ear, we pluck them up and cast them away, the result? No miracle.

One of my own miracles took more than a year to manifest. I had to fight the good fight of faith for it, and it was a hard fought one. I gotta be honest, I gave up many times, but I just kept getting right back up and kept fighting...And..I NEVER thought God wanted me to have or keep the infirmity, I knew it was satan attempting to steal, kill and destroy my life.

Actually, that experience made me so mad I could spit nails! Not at God, but at satan for trying to take me out. After that, I know how to fight for His promises and win. I dont remember the exact moment I received the healing, but its been years since I have had any symptom whatsoever. Praise God!

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle (fight) against flesh and blood (people), but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (the devil, fallen angels/demons)13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (Eph. 6:10-13)

He roams about like a roaring lion looking to see whom he may devour... (1Pet. 5:8) but Jesus came and completely defeated him and gave us authority to come against that, in His Name, over all the works of the enemy. (Luke 10:19) The Kingdom of God is taken by force (Matt 11:12)From Gods point of view which is the true reality...satan is all bark and no bite. All his teeth have been pulled out.

satan is the epitome of evil, shrewd and sneaky. But.. the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ (and His promises) (2 Cor. 10:4,5). The lies may sound logical to us, even religious and pious sounding, but they are just dressed-up liessatan is a liar and the father of all lies, and deceptions. (John 8:44)

But THANK GOD! Greater is He that is in us, than he (satan) who is in the world (1 John 4:4)No weapons he forms against us should ever prosper (Isaiah 54:17) All the gates of hell should never prevail against what Jesus came to do for us and through us! (Matt 16:18)

Weapons will be formed; sickness, disease and infirmities will constantly be trying to Take us out, but they should never be allowed to stay. All the hounds of hell will try to stop us, but they have no right to prevail. We have our Jesus and His promises to stand on and the Holy Spirit residing within us empowering us to do the works of God.. We must pick up and put on the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:10-20) and fight the good fight of faith against the enemy. (1 Tim 6:12) We have His Name..the Name that is above every name (Eph. 1:21) and use it against our enemy who will defeat us if we dont stop him. We must take him out!

Praise God! He is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all we could ever ask, hope or think possible because the Holy Spirit resides and works within us!! (Eph 3:20.)

12 Most assuredly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son( John 14:12-13)

7/21/2009 5:07:16 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Chrisv - I related to much of what you said.

I wholeheartedly agree with just keep praying and leave it in God's hands!

I also appreciate your comments on spiritual gifts - I believe we each are to use them - all of them.

All of my argument and objections to the way people interpret spiritual gifts and healing is my assumptions that the interpretations are not always based on scripture and therefore they confuse and hurt both Christians and the people they attempt to evangelize.

Most importantly, we can dishonor God if we use them inappropriately.

Difficulties in evangelizing arise when people in the Church (mostly Americans) have made a circus of spiritual gifts.

Americans are famous, or infamous, for our "Health & Wealth" gospel.

We have pastors who've announced their healing on television to soon after die of what they were healed from. We have a famous leader who claimed God was going to kill him if he didn't raise enough money - and on and on it goes.

These are just one category of issues which come to the minds of people when you attempt to discuss the Gospel with them.

I agree that spiritual gifts should convict people that God is God.

There in lies the tragedy of their misuse and misinterpretation.

7/21/2009 5:37:55 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Yes Mrs. Piggy - I have read 1 Corinthians 12 & John 10:10.

Was there a reason you did not comment on the lack of definition provided for spiritual gifts in this chapter?

Regarding John 10:10 - Satan comes to do what he does. Jesus came to do His work.

Jesus was and is victorious!

You and I have agreed that Jesus has already paid for all healing - so in the timeless sense, it has already occurred.

You can't logically also rationalize that Satan can steal that back from Jesus.

Jesus being victorious does not stop Satan from continually trying to steal destroy and kill, but he can have no power to harm you physically - unless allowed by God, for God's purpose (again refer to the book of Job).

Satan cannot harm a hair on your head, much less, give you a stroke - unless God has a purpose in allowing him to do so. You are God's treasured possession - bought at a high price.

God does teach us about His sovereignty through sickness, it would be a terrible loss for anyone to go through an illness and not learn anything about God's greatness.

You can claim your healing and have it because God is faithful to His Word - which also says your life is in His hands and He will determine your length of days.

If you don't recite God's Word regarding healing - you still have His promise. It's all about God's power - not about what you say.

God is in control! Too much credit is given to Satan by saying all illnesses is only because, or about him.

Of course God has the power to prevent you from ever getting sick or eradicating any particular disease.

So, why does God not do this? This is another question the world we seek to evangelize continuously asks.

The answer is for God's glory.

God is glorified when Christians face every trial - even sickness - with joy and praise. God is glorified when we face every tribulation and become more like God through the refining process.

7/21/2009 6:51:23 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I understand your feelings about "false prophets".

As I stated before I am being obedient to the Word of God. Jesus, Our Lord, says in Mark 11:23, " For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall SAY unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he SAITH shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he SAITH."

I find it interesting that Jesus would use the word "say" so many times and it not be relevant.

Of course it's God's power. It is God's power at work in us. Ephesians 3:20. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that allows us to call Him Lord. We received His Holy Spirit to help us. He, (Holy Spirit) leads and guides, teaches and reminds us.

Nobody on this site is trying to mislead believer or non-believer into thinking anything beyond what the scriptures state. Why have the Word if we aren't going to use it? I am doing what the Word says to do.

God is glorified when Christians face every trial - even sickness, you say. Is God glorified when non-Christians face sickness? They do, you know. They go through their sickness and never utter any praise to God. So, I fail to see the logic or rationale in Christians going through sickness for God to get glory. He is glorified whether we live or die. Whether we walk in devine health or not. He is the Great IAM, the Creator of all the earth and everything in it. We don't have to walk around sick for Him to get glory. As you said, He is in control, that is the main reason He gets the glory.

7/21/2009 11:09:37 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

So, Mrs. Piggy - have you moved any mountains into the sea lately?

If you use Mark 11:23, in this context, on non-believers as well as many believers, they are very likely to wonder if you are a false or kwazy prophet - if you cannot produce the result on the spot.

Please don't try it at home; I'd rather they know you as the servant of God who honors His Word. But, if you do, let me know how it works for you.

The same is true with claims that all are healed now. Again, I agree that Jesus has paid for all healing, so therefore we've been healed.

However, the skeptical are soon to be thinking "false prophet" or "fairy tale" while waiting for a manifestation of that healing.

There is power in the Word of God. Doing what the Word of God says to do is what is required of you. You are healed by God's power - not by what you do.

Why do I detect so much reluctance on the part of some to inform people about healing and that grace which God told Paul was sufficient for him while God made him wait?

I guess we've ruled out he possibility of Paul's thorn in the flesh being a mountain stuck on his back.

7/21/2009 11:35:51 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

James 1:22, "Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

Yes, Ryan, I have moved mountains lately. The difference between us is that I care not what folk think of me. As Christians, we are to live our lives to please God - ONLY. If a non-believer thinks that what I do is a "fairy tale", what is that to me? What other people think is none of my business. If a fellow Christian think it also, may God bless him and open his spiritual eyes that he may see the truth of God's word in his life. It works for me according to the faith within me. I speak to mountains in my life and command them to move according to the Word of God and they move.

Why do you think God made us in His image? Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves."
27, So God created people in His own image; God patterned them after Himself; male and female he created them."

Why does the Word say, "You have not because you ask not?"

Why would Jesus say, "Ask and you will receive. For all who ask receives?"

We are saved by grace. And we are healed by grace. We live and move and have our being because of His grace.

If Paul's thorn was a mountain on his back, he should have spoke to it.

7/21/2009 12:02:21 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Oh Mrs. Piggy!

I admire your faith, and have no doubt you have the faith to move mountains on a regular basis!

However, my question was literally - have you moved a mountain into the sea lately?

That is literally, as in the literal way you originally referenced the scripture.

Changing from literal to figurative can be very misleading, if it is not correctly identified; especially to those on the periphery of Christianity.

I think we both care deeply about what those people think.

After all, the Word speaks harshly of those who misapply it and who hurt "the little ones" - as in those with whom we hope to share the Gospel.

I still maintain it is harmful to tell people you will be healed without explaining the whole deal to them. That whole deal is partly summed up in your quote on when healing occurs:

We don't like to talk about it that way, but yes, the comfort and healing is sometimes going to heaven. I like to think of it as the ultimate cure.

The part which I agree with is - "the comfort and healing is sometimes going to heaven." - that's the part after - We don't like to talk about it that way.

I think we must talk about "it", and more.

I was hoping you'd see fit to amend that quote to read more along the lines of:
"The comfort and healing is sometimes going to heaven. I like to think of it as the ultimate cure. We also talk about God's sustaining grace which will get them through anything - until they receive that ultimate cure!"

We must tell them about God's sufficient grace because we know sometimes they will have to wait a long time, perhaps to the end of their physical life. They need that sustaining grace!

Whether Paul's thorn was an actual mountain on his back - or a botched tattoo of a mountain - or blood poisoning from a botched tattoo of a mountain - or delusions he was being tattooed unto death by a mountain - God did not tell him he could, by faith, tell it to move.

God did tell Paul His grace was sufficient!

7/21/2009 4:43:59 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hey Lapanche - there are many responses I'd like to make to your posts; but alas I'm short on time.

I did agree with many things you wrote. But, still have many objections.

I could not tell from the scriptures you quoted if you agree with my point about Satan not being able to steal anything from Jesus, the Victorious Savior who paid for our lives.

I agree with you that Satan does seek to destroy us and we must resist him - but, the victory remains in Jesus.

Another thing, from an earlier post, which I meant to ask about - do you still smoke cigarettes? I was unclear about that from several days ago.

If you don't smoke please forgive the question.

If you do smoke, are ciggys one of those deadly things, like snakes, which we can handle without being hurt?

Regarding your comment about me questioning the validity of what Christ did - I would not want to give that impression - I know Jesus led a perfect life on earth.

I do question whether the command to lay hands on the sick so they could be made well had more to do with the foot-washing attitude of Jesus than it does with the hand-laying showmanship of some faith healers.

Some Christians can tell the world more about who Jesus is by washing their feet - caring for their needs - than they can by laying their hands on them.

You mentioned you could not pray above what someone had faith to receive.

The world has no faith.

Physically caring for them brings them a step closer to receiving something they can feel. Laying hands on someone with no faith may bring them nothing.

7/21/2009 5:33:37 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I look forward to your questions/comments about my post...

You ask, do I still smoke?...Let me ask you 2 questions

If I say I don't, what would that prove?

If I say I do, would you throw the first stone?

7/21/2009 6:50:50 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Good Morning Lapanache,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I'd throw stones at you. I know I'm in no position to do that to anyone.

What I would be happy to do for you is pray for you, or wash your feet.

My question was related to a few points I thought I'd attempt to make regarding healing and how literal should we take some scriptures - such as not being hurt by deadly things.

Regardless, we can all think of times when God mercifully spared us the effects of what we caused to our bodies. In appreciation to God, we know that His promise to heal us does not give us freedom to abuse our bodies.

I suggest that God's promise to heal does not give us immunity from venom if we chose to play with poisonous snakes. Although, I know some would quote a particular scripture to say I'm wrong.

Perhaps many struggle with how literal we are to take some scriptures. I know I have the problem of taking many scriptures as literal, where the majority will see them as figurative, and vice versa.

I will say, I think you mostly have a more palatable way of representing your views and your gift - compared to others I've encountered. I think this ability should be of great help to you when writing your book - which may be read by skeptics.

I like the brief glimpses you've given of how you assist people; I imagine you as a healing coach. I thought "go to the throne, not the phone" was brilliant.

You also did mention you waited a year for healing to be manifested in your body.

I assume you're therefore open to the possibility that someone would have to wait longer than a year. Would there be any limit to the time someone would have to wait for healing to be made manifest?

If one had to wait one minute, one year, or one decade for healing to be felt would you want them to see:
In our weakness (illness included), God is made strong?
All things (illness included) work together for good for God's people?
Gods grace is sufficient for all (illness included)?

I believe they are all Biblical approaches to dealing with any trial - illness included.

7/22/2009 6:22:56 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

Since things have to be literal or figurative. And since we know that grace is God's unmerited favor, is grace literal or figurative?

7/22/2009 7:06:14 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Grace is literal, purposeful, relational, sustaining and sufficient for what ever ails you!

7/22/2009 7:15:11 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

So, Paul, who said, "When I want to do good, I don't." has a thorn in his side, it must literally be a thorn? Or is the thorn figurative and the grace literal?

"A thorn in my side" is usually used to refer to a recuring annoyance or ongoing irritation.

7/22/2009 8:00:36 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi Mrs. Piggy,

Of course, at the onset of this discussion I considered that the thorn in Paul's flesh may have been an actual thorn implantation, not a tattoo.

But, I didn't think the 35 AD Tarsus scene was really hip to sub-dermal body art.

Whether Paul first spoke the term "thorn in the flesh" in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, I do not know. But, it has undoubtedly become a figure of speech in the English language due to Paul's popularization of the phrase.

So no, I don't believe the thorn was literal. The term "thorn in the flesh" is a metaphor. Grace is literal, and quite lovely too.

I do hope I've not become an annoying thorn to you, Mrs. Piggy. You have my sincere apology if that is the case!

7/22/2009 3:32:11 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

Of all the people involved in this discussion, you have known me the longest. I have referred to you as the peacemaker, Child of God and called you blessed. You live in my hometown and are my little brother in Christ. Do you really think you could annoy me? I enjoy reading your post as they are thought-provoking and stated with eloquence. I'm your fan, man.
Peace & Joy

7/22/2009 5:15:36 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan,

I would like to attempt to answer/respond to some of the wonderful questions/comments you have made...

You say

I could not tell from the scriptures you quoted if you agree with my point about Satan not being able to steal anything from Jesus, the Victorious Savior who paid for our lives.

I agree with you that Satan does seek to destroy us and we must resist him - but, the victory remains in Jesus.

My response

Jesus is the Lord of lords, The King of kings; He is our Victorious Savior...no ifs, ands or buts about it. PERIOD.

Absolutely nothing or no one, including satan, can snatch us out of our Fathers hand, eternally speaking. We are bought and paid for in full, once and for all, by the precious Blood of the Lamb. PERIOD

The war has already been fought and victoriously won by our Savior and Lord Jesus. PERIOD.

The ultimate war has been won and the victory remains, and belongs to Jesus. PERIOD.

However, and I do believe you will agree, there are battles we must either win or loose before the end of the war.

Those individual battles can either be won or lost, not by the Lord, but by us because of our free-will choices, good or bad.

God has given us all the weapons we need; the Armor, the Fruit, the Gifts and the Holy Spirit who is the power behind them.

We have His Name (that is above every name), His Blood (that cleanses us from all unrighteousness), and His Word (that gives us instructions and unfailing promises). And I personally think this is awesome... God has seen fit to give us the authority to use them against and resist the enemy of our souls who seeks to destroy our destinies here in this life!!

Just like in any real life battle in a real life war, if we choose not to pick up and put on any part of those spiritual weapons, follow the orders of the commander (Jesus), we can be defeated and will loose the personal battles in our life.

satan knows he cannot prevent us from receiving eternal life, and he hates us for it. So he will do anything and everything he can to prevent us from living the abundant and victorious life while we are on this earth.The choice is ours we will either win or loose each battle.

So, bottom line I do believe we agree we just may use different ways of conveying it.

You say

I do question whether the command to lay hands on the sick so they could be made well had more to do with the foot-washing attitude of Jesus than it does with the hand-laying showmanship of some faith healers.

My Response

I am actually responding not only to this last post, but several others in combination with it. The subjects being; hand-laying, showmanship and faith healers.

I do believe we have agreed that the laying on of hands is a valid tool the Lord demonstrated himself and gave a command that we do that too.

So I believe your reticence about the issues comes with "how" or "why" it is done by certain people, and so you are skeptical about the showmanship and motives some faith-healers choose to manifest that in their ministries?

First let me say again, I am no mans judge. God is the only one who knows what their true motives are, and so they are His problem, not mine. God is not mocked we reap what we sow good or bad.

We have already discussed and agreed in previous posts that we (the Body of Christ) are warned in scripture to be on guard against false prophets who "deliberately" use the Gospel or anything having to do with the things of God as a way to dupe or deceive people. We agree on that.

I have a good idea who you may be referring to when you say some use the "hand on forehead with a backward push" (or something like that) as a way of laying hands on the sick.

We must be extremely careful here, because if he is truly anointed by God, then we tread on very thin ice when judging him. We could be judging God the Holy Spirit. It's a good thing to read Matthew 12:1-37 and get that under our belt when discussing this kind of thing. I suggest you read it now.

Basically Jesus had just been accused of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. (satan) because the Pharisees and Sadducees didn't like when, why, where or how He did them.

Jesus gave a very stern warning here about the unpardonable sin of saying anything disparaging about the way the Holy Spirit chose to do things.

Our only gauge should be "Do they bare fruit"? the list of which I gave in a previous post.

To make it personal for you we could use your wonderful faith-healer dude, as an example. I think I'm safe in assuming that you have no doubt in your mind that he was truly a gifted servant of the Lord, but others may judge him as a charlatan, and in doing so they are actually judging God, and the way He chooses to use that particular man.

You say

You mentioned you could not pray above what someone had faith to receive.

The world has no faith.

Physically caring for them brings them a step closer to receiving something they can feel. Laying hands on someone with no faith may bring them nothing.

My response

mrspiggy already got me on that one and has reminded me that My faith is sometimes all that is needed. However, that can never be confused with their free-will to refuse it.

I learned a long time ago never to preach to non-believers. I share my testimony when the Lord opens the door for me to do so, but I never push my beliefs on them. With the Lords help I talk the talk, and walk the walk.

I do my best to show them Jesus in my actions AND re-actions to life and situations. Like you said, I try to show them something they can see and feel. Hopefully by doing so it will draw them to our precious Jesus.

My faith in the Lord, in that sense, can and will give them something they can feel and experience.

Wrapping my arms (laying my hands) around trembling shoulders speaks volumes to a wounded heart.

7/22/2009 5:21:05 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache - please understand I was not referring to any one specific ministry when I mentioned the push back maneuver.

When I was referencing particular ministers who have gained a nationally dubious reputation for contradictory claims made on television, I declined to use their names. I think that although they no longer walk this earth, they most likely repented from any wrongdoing.

The question of fruit, is unfortunately, debatable.

You've seen the fruit and seem to be supportive of some of the ministries that many mainstream Christian leaders have no problem calling out as false prophets preaching a false gospel of health and wealth.

Some conventional leaders go to the extreme of considering it their duty to expose those who they believe have departed from the faith originally delivered and are leading others into their apostasy - and will cite Biblical authority for doing so. They seem to evaluate their own fruit by their success in this endeavor.

The whole tangle can be quite confusing.

Regrettably, both sides tend not to consider the other's viewpoints and grow toward understanding. Therefore, we don't appear to be one as Jesus prayed we would be.

I believe I evaluate the ideas and practices of others to the best of my ability. Frankly, some which I disagree with the most, are also the ones which I believe cannot thoughtfully defend their rationale when challenged.

Perhaps that's just a flawed human assessment on my part - maybe the same circular reasoning, ignoring key scriptures and defensiveness are the very same tactics they observe in me.

I find that the solution is for me to put all hope and confidence in Jesus - not other humans, fad-books, churches or doctrines.

7/22/2009 6:32:37 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I have no idea what you just said...way over my head and confusing...

I'm impressed with your elequence, but I would rather be able to understand you..

I feel like I've lost my mind, and you're playing with it again..:)smile

7/22/2009 7:02:38 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ha! Your last post reads like one of my favorite portions of I Corinthians 14!

Paul wrote in verse 19:
"I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Sorry for being cryptic in my post - I was trying to heed your lesson about being prudent in the way I speak of others in whom the Holy Spirit may be working.

7/22/2009 7:14:49 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Tongues?..then I would appreciate an Interpretation...:)smile

7/23/2009 4:55:15 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Ryan and Lapanache,

You two have me in stitches.

7/23/2009 4:40:03 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I'm not gifted in speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues. So, I'll let that previous post go - and perhaps I'm nearing the end of my participation in this discussion.

Way back at the start of the conversation, I mentioned I wasn't in the mood to debate and I should have honored that sentiment. However Lapanache, you seemed so eager and I didn't want you to be lonely.

Perhaps my lack of interest is partially due to the fact that based on the title, the whole discussion is anti-climatic.

Awhile ago, in another discussion, titled Faith, we had already conclusively learned the nature of Paul's thorn in the flesh (although I still maintain that revelation provides room for speculation that a tattoo was involved).

7/23/2009 6:16:01 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I know your last post was not directed to me, but, I must state this truth. All believers have the gift of speaking in tongues. Whether you operate in this gift or not is up to you. See Mark 16:17

7/24/2009 7:15:27 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan,

First I just want to say what a pleasure it has been discussing these issues with you. You have given me much food for thought, and toughened me up to take the heat when and if the Lord has me publish the book. Would it be ok if I quote you?

I do hope youve enjoyed our discussions to some degree too, even though you may have only done so "so I wouldnt be lonely" smile

Actually, I'm a little confused because your post dated July 4th (20 or so days ago) when you said "I agree that the thorn may very well have not been a physical something"

I took that to mean, at least to some degree, you thought I could be right about Pauls thorn not being a physical something (other than a botched tattoo). So we went on to other discussions, and you didn't seem to be too bored or worried about it being anti-climatic.

I did go and read the post entitled Faith you mentioned, 2 times, and I just couldnt find where or why you thought "we had conclusively learned the nature of Pauls thorn in the flesh" as being either physical or otherwise. There was some speculation, but nothing more. Certainly not anything conclusive as you suggest.

I still firmly believe that Pauls thorn was not sickness, disease or an infirmity due to a medical/physical problem, but was what he (Paul) said it was.. a messenger (demon) sent by satan to cause the tests, trials, tribulations and persecutions he was receiving in an attempt to thwart his ministry of spreading the Gospel to the gentiles and Gods grace was sufficient for that.

In my opinion, that is (so far) the only explanation that goes hand in hand with Jesus ministry of healing ALL who came to Him believing who were afflicted with various sicknesses, diseases and infirmities and oppressed by the devil. Every single person. Every single time.

In any case, we gave mrspiggy some laughs

Be blessed, so you can continue to be a blessing!!

7/25/2009 6:57:57 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Mrs. Piggy,

I must speak in tongues? Isn't enough that I occasionally write in an unknown language?

Prevailing advice is always to do as the Spirit leads you. Now you want me to go where the Spirit is not leading me?

I can only believe what the Holy Spirit has taught me to this point. As far as I have been led to understand, I see the issue of what speaking in tongues is, to be well summarized by Wind Blown Leaf, in a post under the discussion tiled Tongues, as quoted below:

Greetings,

Well first it is important to understand that there are two distinctions in speaking in tongues. Xenoglossy and Glossolalia. Xenoglossy is when the Holy Spirit lets a person speak in a foreign language that they have never heard before, the language is coherent and can be understood by non believers who speak that language. Glossolalia on the other hand is the speaking of an incoherent speech-like utterances. When the Bible talks about speaking in tongues it is referring to Xenoglossy. Glossolalia only recently appeared in churches starting in 1900 AD.

Here is a good link to start studding this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

However, I will follow the lead of the Holy Spirit as I am guided. I am open to learning and changing.

Although, maybe I do speak in tongues. We are often exhausted in our bustling home that never sleeps. When we're totally fatigued, communication frequently breaks down between me and my wife, who is not down with the English language. She often says to me, in Spanish, "I have no idea which language you are speaking, but I am certain it is not one of the languages I know."

I have had limited exposure to others speaking in tongues. Just like with speaking unintelligibly to my wife, or writing gibberish to Lapanache, I saw the speaking of to be unedifying to the hearers.

I think Paul wrote (as far as the way I read) against much of what I have observed to be taking place, on the subject of tongues. I haven't personally seen any fruit from tongues - no fruit for believers or non-believers.

However, I will remember Lapanche's comments about not speaking against what the Holy Spirit may be doing through specific people.

Is speaking in tongues really available to everyone? I think I know which scriptures you may be referencing to conclude they are. However, I can read them and also see the meaning to not be conclusive of all Christians. When I combine that view with a few passages such as 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, I'm further impressed with the notion that tongues are not for all.

I like how chapter 12 of I Corinthians ends with an excellent segue into the love chapter, with these words:
"And now I will show you the most excellent way."

I feel that is the gift/topic in which the Holy Spirit wants to lead me toward necessary and lasting growth.

I'm sure the following scripture is one that is important to both of us:

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

With so much to learn about love, and no Spirit-driven inclination toward tongues, I don't see tongues as a priority, much less a necessity for me today.

7/25/2009 8:38:30 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I attribute my re-occurring need to edit my posts for clarity to simultaneously dealing with young children while I'm also attempting to type my thoughts - not to the gift of writing in tongues.

7/25/2009 8:48:05 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Lapanache - the post I was referring to, in the Faith discussion, is:

I have prayed and requested clarification on a couple of issues. As for the thorn in Paul's side, this is the revelation I got with confirmation. Paul was unmarried. He lived the celibate life.(1st Corinthians 7:7) However, being human he experienced sexual desire. This was his "thorn". He had to keep his body "under" so as not to preach one thing and do another.(1st Corinthians 9:27)

I won't cite the author's name due to uncertainty over their current feelings on the matter.

Whether the thorn was a botched tattoo or something else which was physical, emotional or spiritual - Paul needed healing - and he was told to wait within the sufficiency of God's grace.

I believe we should pass along the same advice to all.

7/25/2009 8:53:38 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

I'm not saying you must do anything. I'm saying all believers have the gift to pray in tongues, whether you use it or not. Jesus said these signs will follow those who believe, and I believe Him.

I don't know where the 1900AD came from. Paul wrote in 1Cor.14:14 "For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying." Surely he wrote that before 1900AD.

And, no, I haven't changed my position on Paul's "thorn".

Peace & joy to all.

7/25/2009 12:10:38 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Add-on.

In the Book of Jude, the author encourages believers to "build up your most Holy faith by praying in the Spirit" v.20 Therein lies the fruit.

7/25/2009 12:15:41 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy,

You certainly do not have to agree with the statement about Glossolalia first appearing on the church scene around AD 1900.

But, to disagree with it in actuality, you first have to understand the connotation of the statement.

Many Christians believe that what many other Christians - today - label as speaking in tongues is a relatively new phenomenon - one that is totally different than the speaking and praying in tongues which Paul wrote about.

Paul wrote his books, through complete inspiration of the Holy Spirit, somewhere between AD 35 - 70 (estimation on my part without taking the time to look it up).

So yes, Paul spoke about praying in tongues prior to AD 1900 - what speaking and praying in tongues means has been debated by Christians for many years.

From another angle:

We are told in scripture to go into every nation and preach the Gospel. We are also told we will heal the sick, speak in tongues and cast out demons.

Does the first scriptural reference mean Mrs. Piggy & Ryan must literally go into every nation? Does the second reference mean every Christian will participate in those activities?

If Mrs. Piggy thinks she must physically enter each nation preaching the Good News - I know she's got the drive to do it and I'd support her. However, perhaps we're called to a more productive way.

Via the Church, you and I have gone into every nation to preach the Gospel through faithful giving.

So, the collective Church may be doing many things - activities which we may support but, are not necessary called to participate in directly.

1 Corinthians 12 states - there are many parts of the body, with many functions.

All are called to perform various functions, no?

Or should I more respectfully refer to you as Apostle Mrs. Piggy?

7/25/2009 1:23:39 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I'm not saying I disagree with it, but, I am questioning the validity of 1900 AD timeframe.

Who says it is different? How do they know?

Were they around when Paul prayed in tongues to distinquish between his prayer and anyone's prayer today?

Is it not the same Holy Spirit then and now?

Have you ever been in a room full of people praying out loud in tongues? Everybody sounds different to me. I believe we each have our own prayer language.

I have heard it said when you pray in tongues it is your spirit praying out God's will in your life. It would make sense for each person to sound different since each person has his own part to play in God's will. Yes, all are called to perform various functions.

No, you should respectfully refer to me as mrspiggy. When God calls me to be an apostle, you'll be the next person in line to know.

Something else just crossed my mind. A.D. is Latin meaing anno Domini (in the year of our Lord) while B.C is before Christ. Why is it that non-believers and atheist use these timeframes?

7/25/2009 1:58:25 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I have been silent all these days because I had much to think about concerning healing. I have always believed, based on my study of the scriptures, that God is sovereign and that He retains the right to tell His children "no" when this is the best thing for us. I also believe that there are times when it is best to allow an illness to run its course, such as allowing the flu to run its course to build immunity for one small example. Mrspiggy and Lapanache have given me much to think on because I believed that God could use my injury in a positive manner in my life. Now I may have to rethink my stand. If they are correct and God did promise healing to ALL who believe and ask (though I still find no evidence for such a claim) then I have been fooling myself. If I am fooling myself then my hope was false hope and therefore I am delusional. If my hope was baseless then I am throwing in the towel because my faith has never been stronger, nor has my suffering ever been worse. I may as well end it now before the burden on my family becomes even worse than it already is and save me suffering and them a lot of financial problems. Thanks for all the debate, it was interesting.

7/27/2009 5:14:06 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

KCGodlyMan

You are not alone in this. I also feel that there are times when God simply chooses not to heal an illness because there is some greater good in it. There are many examples of this in the Bible, and many good examples of this today. The 18 year old son of a pastor I know has leukemia, and this week the doctors said that there was nothing left that they could do but manage the pain. Did the son not have enough faith? Did the pastor? The congregation? My only explanation is that God needed this for His purposes and that no amount of faith could change that.

How to reconcile this with verses about promises of healing? How to reconcile with the very good arguments on this topic above? I just don't know.......

...but I am with you - you are not alone.

7/28/2009 5:39:41 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Mrs Piggy:

"Something else just crossed my mind. A.D. is Latin meaing anno Domini (in the year of our Lord) while B.C is before Christ. Why is it that non-believers and atheist use these timeframes?"

They don't anymore. I took my family to see the dead sea scrolls at the museum, and they now use the terms "BCE" for "Before Common Era" and "CE" for "Common Era." (I think that's it). There is even a sign up in the museum explaining that they no longer use the terms "BC" and "AD" because of the religious connotations.

There were many other issues that bothered me during my visit, including copies of the book, "God is Not Great" for sale in the gift shop. Why, for heaven's sake?? What value, historical or otherwise, does this book possibly have in a museum gift shop?! I was very upset, but that is what I have come to expect from our (Canadian) government and everything it funds or touches.

7/28/2009 5:40:39 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

kcgodlyman:
I read your post and I can see you are struggling with the burden you have in your life and how to view and respond to it. I believe that God did promise healing, but He did not give us definite answers as to where, when or how it will happen. There are many strong and vibrant Christians who are secure in their faith who still suffer, have pain and sorrow. We are not immune from these things because we live in an imperfect world. Sometimes our healing may be miraculous, sometimes it is slow and steady and sometimes we do not know full healing until we are in heaven with our heavenly body.
A few points about suffering:
God can use anything, even the worst of situations for good
God is pained by our suffering and He truly understands what we are going through
God will never burden us more than we can bear. This seems almost unfair in a lot of circumstances, but God truly knows us, loves us and knows what the end result will be. Our life is like a puzzle- we only know and can grasp a few pieces- God knows what the completed version looks like, how those corner pieces fit in and how it will all come together.
Faith is not about figuring out what or how something will happen but it is trusting God that what will happen will be in his plan. Philip Yancey said it best when he said that faith is believing in advance what will only make sense in reverse. (His book, "Where Is God When It Hurts" really does go into the issues of pain, suffering and how to have faith through it all).
I hope that when you are down or want to just end it, that you are able to take a breath and realize that God is still very close to you, is carrying you through this pain even if you can't see or feel it and that God will bring healing-whether it be now, later or in heaven-it is all in His plan. I believe He really can use whatever you are suffering from to strengthen you and those around you. Chances are too that someone out there is feeling exactly the same way you are, is hurting like you and has no idea that anyone else feels this way and is feeling lost and alone. It is possible that only you can reach out to them because only you truly understand the type of pain and torment that you are afflicted with. Pray not only for healing for yourself (as I am certain you have been doing) but pray too that God gives you wisdom in how to handle it, how to view it and how to use it with others.
While it may make little sense today, there will be a day that all the puzzle pieces will come together- sometimes that requires more patience and faith than we ever knew we had...but again, that is where trusting God comes in. This type of faith and patience comes from Him- because on our own, we really can't do anything.
All the best in your situation and I'll pray for you too.

7/28/2009 5:50:27 AM by Elizabeth, Vice-President, Delve Christian Ministries

Hi kcgodlyman,

Keep on believing in the great, big sovereignty of God - who has a great, big plan and purpose for you! This morning, I read the following verse and thought of you:
1 Peter 5:10
And the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

I believe God will heal you, in His time, and will make His purpose known to you, in His way. God wont fail to turn your trial into something good (Romans 8:28).

While we are waiting, we are praying for you and your family. Though we are far-away strangers, God's sovereignty is so big that He uses your need to move us, to join with Jesus, in taking your cause before the throne of God with urgency.

When you suffer, other parts of the Body suffer with you. But we also look forward to sharing your joy when the day comes!

7/28/2009 6:46:47 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Michael, Elizabeth and Ryan,
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. While I must admit that the pain is ferocious and that I feel a bit lost in life at the moment, please know that my faith in God is not wavering. If anything, it is growing stronger by the day. Being a leader of a small bible study, I am digging into the Word and partnering with the Holy Spirit in a mighty way these days. I am also working to put together a ministry to mentor newlyweds. My last post was the result of a fear that someone whose faith was weaker would give up faced with some of the statements withing this discussion. It would be very easy to give up if I wasn't so sure that God is molding and shaping my life to create His masterpiece. As it is, I am sure that my suffering has a purpose and I am content to wait until the Lord is finished with His work within me and reveals the finished product.

The belief that God heals at a moments notice when a person of strong faith demands healing is very scary to me. It creates a picture of a god who is little more than a genie in a bottle, awaiting our demands regardless of His plans. It even hints that God has no plans, but is simply waiting to be informed of what we want and eager to please us. He is so much more than this simplistic and demeaning picture. He is rich and varied, loving us beyond all reason and like any good parent He wants nothing but the best for His children. Throughout scripture He shows us His love and His Grace, but He also shows us that He is in control and that it is His time table that matters, not man's.

I will be healed some day. Whether that will be a miraculous healing, or one brought about through the efforts of surgeons, or possibly the ultimate healing brought to us when we go home to be with the Lord; someday I will be healed. Until then I am content to know that God is in control, not me.

Blessings to all of you!

7/28/2009 9:02:41 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyan - I was very glad to read your last note!

From the time I read your first post and testimony I was awed by what God is doing in your life and I've been impressed with your ability to share it with others. So, it's great to have you sounding like that godly man again!

I agree that your words in that hopeless post are the way many fragile people would feel after being hammered with the be healed now movement.

Many more who know little about Christianity may reject it as a fable when they see those with faith contracting diseases, suffering from them and dieing from them at rate close to the population in general - if they have been led to believe that Christianity is primarily about physical healing.

Regardless, what good is unlimited physical heeling in this life, if you don't learn about God's grace and goodness? When you do encounter His grace, physical healing no longer remains so important.

Most, if not all, successful ministries have the war stories of the years of struggling and suffering until God proves them faithful with the small things and then booms them into the big time.

Wherever God desires to take your ministry, I am sure your experiences with suffering will prove to be valuable to you and vital to those whom your ministry touches.

I'm happy to continue praying for you!

7/28/2009 9:44:23 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Thank you very much for the continued prayers Ryan. They are always welcome and a vital part to spiritual warfare!

7/28/2009 12:18:55 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

The first thing I must do is apologize to you and anyone else who may have misunderstood these discussions..

I hope you and the others know that it was never, ever my intention to hurt anyone in any way...

I would like to remind you of my post to you some days ago..

kcgodlyman,

I didn't find your post "strident" at all. As a matter of fact I found it to be wonderful! ....I perceived it as being full of passion!

For me there's nothing sadder than a lukewarm Christian who has no opinion that could maybe - possibly - rock the boat....So I applaud your willingness to disagree and stand up for what you believe.

In starting this post, I had hoped to get some passionate discussion going..so here we are...

The thing that I am most impressed with is your amazing - jaw-dropping testimony...You are a walking talking miracle! If anyone has a right to stand up and give your "passionate" opinion on how to receive God's healing touch, for anything...it's you.

What you have trusted God for and received would leave a lot of people (including me) in your dust!!

That little mustard seed of faith has made the mountains in your life get up and be thrown into the sea!!

Thank you Jesus!!..

I meant that then, and mean it more now...You are man of great faith, and show great strength of character and integrity in the face of your injuries that is not only how I see you, but how others should see you as well.

This subject is a controversial one, which is why I chose this particular subtitle; Christian Theology -Want to debate some of the more complicated concepts and ideas of the Christian faith? This is the place to do it.

Even though it was never my intention to do so, it would seem that I stepped beyond some invisible bearer, for which I am confused about, but deeply sorry.

Again, I apologize, and hope to gain your forgiveness in doing so..

Yours in Christ,
Lapanache..

Michael, you have created a wonderful website here. It is a place where many have and will continue to come and Delve into Jesus..

7/28/2009 12:56:18 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

We all agree that God reigns Supreme. Thus, everything is either God sent or God used. To everything there is a time and a purpose. We don't have to know why some are healed instantly and others aren't. As Jesus said to Peter when Peter questioned Him about John, "What is it to you?"

Kcgodlyman,
Our Father has found favor in you. Trust Him and know that you will receive the desires of your heart.

Michael,

Thank you for the information. Did you read the book, or even glance through it? I do a lot of volunteer work at my church and there's this song that I hear on cd every week. The words that make me smile and cry at the same time are:

"If I say You're good, You are better than that. If I say You're sweet, You've been sweeter than that. If I say You're great, You are better than that. Cause You've been more and more in my life."

So, maybe the book was about God being better than great!!

I get excited reading everybody's posts, knowing we will all meet each other one day and our spirits will know each other in heaven. That is so deep to me.

7/28/2009 5:16:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Lapanache,

You have not crossed any barriers, and you owe no apologies. The purpose of this discussion is to learn and grow together in Christ. Sometimes it is a difficult road. I appreciate you and this discussion, and I know we have all benefited from it. Thank you also for the kind words.

7/28/2009 5:18:47 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Mrs. Piggy,

I've not read it, but I know what it's about. The subtitle of the book is, "How religion poisons everything". He's of the same ilk as Richard Dawkins and the rest of the rabid atheist authors.

I intend to read it, just as I intend to someday read "The God Delusion" so that I will be better able to understand and minister to the poor folks who are swallowing this garbage.

7/28/2009 5:23:56 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Then we should pray that he has a "Saul/Paul" experience with our Lord.

7/28/2009 5:25:53 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Dear all,

Thank you for several weeks' worth of fascinating debate! I am learning so much from reading your discussions.... I am inspired by your varying and grounded opinions, and your ability to put them across so articulately and tactfully. I'm so early in my walk with Christ, and have such limited knowledge of scripture right now, but I look forward to the day when I'll be able to add something of value to these debates.

Thank you all for being so willing to openly share your experiences, thoughts and beliefs.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Debora
:)

7/29/2009 5:56:09 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

jepsond,

Welcome to our discussion...

I'm curious...what have you learned? What inspired you?

7/29/2009 6:13:36 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

To list a few....

1) The "groundedness" of your beliefs and opinions- you each have such clear, defined reasons for taking your inidividual stances. It helps me to get a holistic view of a topic/issue, so I can start to weigh things up and form my own perspective on it. I am inspired to keep reading, exploring and discussing, so that eventually I will be able to confidently express beliefs informed by experience, knowledge and wisdom.

2) Seeing how your unique experiences have shaped you and have brought about growth is inspiring- it gives me hope in regards to my own potential and room for growth

3) The willingness to openly share experiences/beliefs/thoughts inspires/reminds me to share my own more often! If I can benefit so much from hearing about others' experiences, then my own must surely have some benefit to someone...

4) Reading these discussions on such complex/controversial issues encourages me to look and explore deeper when I'm studying scripture, and the subsequent attempts to apply it to my life. These discussions also fuel my enthusiasm and passion for God's word, and reminds me that His word truly is "living and powerful".

7/29/2009 6:46:59 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Lapanache,
I did not mean to imply that you had crossed a barrier and for that I apologize to you. This is an open forum and we need to feel free to express our opinions openly. I may be a little touchy this week because the pain is worse and because in a way I feel I am losing touch with who I was before my injury. Change is good when we are following God and His will, but I am not sure who I will be when this is played out. This injury is work related and I may be facing a third back surgery. I feel certain that I won't be able to return to my former position and I am not sure what I will be able to do to support my family. The uncertainty has left me a bit lost. Please know that I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I look forward to further discussion with you.
Blessings upon you Lapanache!

7/29/2009 7:59:18 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Jepsond,
Welcome to the discussion! I hope you will join in with how you feel about healing as this discussion does not require years of study or even years of faith. You can always weigh in with your thoughts based on what you read here, or ask questions that come to mind.

Blessings upon you!

7/29/2009 8:05:05 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Jepsond,

I'm assuming you are a relatively "new" Christian?

If so, I fondly refer to those who are as "Baby Christians", and I love being around them. They remind me of my own first baby steps in the faith. Their always fresh..on fire, and zealous for God, and the things of God.

Whenever I feel like I've lost my foundations I always seek out someone who has just received Jesus as Savior and just hang around them. Their joy and energy is contagious...

I'm glad you've enjoyed our discussions and was inspired by them...I especially liked your 4 reason...

4) Reading these discussions on such complex/controversial issues encourages me to look and explore deeper when I'm studying scripture, and the subsequent attempts to apply it to my life. These discussions also fuel my enthusiasm and passion for God's word, and reminds me that His word truly is "living and powerful".

For me, that is the most exciting one...In a nut-shell I would say that means it has given you a hunger and a thirst for God's Word...There's nothing more important than that.

I agree with kcgodlyman, regardless of long you've been a Christian you can always weigh in...We might even learn something from you!!

7/29/2009 12:25:10 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache & kcgodlyman,

I am indeed a relatively "new" Christian. :) God suddenly pulled the agnostic rug from under my feet at the beginning of this year, and I have never looked back! :)

A friend of mine has told me that "you're never too young in Christ", and I do try to remember that, but it's often hard to join in discussions when all I have is questions!

So, healing.... Well, I definitely believe that the Lord does heal, although I have never actually witnessed it taking place. I have been working in a hospice for the last 4 months, and have seen many devout Christians die from medically incurable conditions. I am intrigued by the idea of "different kinds of healing", and am sure there must be an element of this involved when the Lord decides to heal. One patient in particular springs to mind- Six years ago the doctors told him he only had months to live due to heart failure. Six years and many, many prayers later, he is still alive, and not for any medical reason! Granted, he isn't healed from his heart failure, but I believe God is keeping him alive for some reason... so perhaps being sustained is a type of healing?

Another patient who really touched my heart was a 90-year-old Christian lady who was blind, had leukemia, and had two horrific degloving injuries to both legs as a result of hip surgery. She was confined to bed and needed support with all aspects of care, having been previously independent. Again, this lady's illness was not healed, but she was a fabulous example of how the Lord heals our spirits. In her last days of life I visited her and she greeted me with a huge smile, and then sang her school song to me, which she had remembered every word of for 80 years!

In my experience in palliative care, Christians are by far the most at peace with their diagnosis and prognosis, which leads me to wonder if salvation in itself is a kind of healing for the spirit.

Gosh, look at that- I had more to say than I thought!

:)

7/30/2009 12:54:54 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Salvation is definitely healing in and of itself, it is the ultimate healing. The peace you have observed in your Christian patients is a result of knowing where we are going when we pass; we get to go be with our Lord whom we love with all our heart! Our passing is a release from the shell that holds us here on Earth and the beginning of an eternity of worshiping in the presence of God. Because of this there is nothing to be feared in death for believers. You have started on a wonderful journey of discovery and I pray it will be fruitful for you!

7/30/2009 11:34:19 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

This journey has already been more fruitful than I ever could have imagined! Working in the hospice was actually a faith-affirming experience for me, although I have seen quite a few Christians completely lose their faith in God when they were informed of their terminal diagnosis. I have seen people so angry with Him, they shut off completely, and it made me sad to see them die before they found peace with God and their illness. Do you think this would affect their salvation/judgement?

7/31/2009 2:07:22 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

"Yet I am confident that I will see the LORD's goodness while I am here in the land of the living." Psalm27:13

"Just believe." Luke 8:50

7/31/2009 9:33:02 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Jespond,

No. Being angry with God will not effect their salvation or judgement.

Our Heavenly Father knows that the root of anger is usually due to fear, and fear is not a sin.

Jesus was afraid in the Garden of Gethsemene, when faced with the Cross. His fear didn't lead to anger because He knew it wasn't His Fathers fault, but because satan had brought sin into the world, and He must die inorder to reverse what was started in Eden.

These beloved people may have lost hope, which causes fear and then produces anger. God know this..and His heart breaks..

My question would be is who told them that their sickness was God's fault or God's will for their lives?...Maybe someone told them God's grace was sufficient for that, so they blamed God for the sickness, disease or infirmity and then got angry at Him?

Has anyone ever told them that their salvation includes "by His stripes you are healed?

Frankly, I'd get mad at someone who made me sick too...wouldn't you?...

Someone needs to tell them that satan is the one who brought not only sin and rebellion, but sickness, disease, infirmities and physical death into the Garden of Eden....and that's why they are sick and dieing.

They should be mad at satan...not at our Heavenly Father...

Blaming God for sickness, of any kind, or wanting them to keep the sickness, is like believing our Father is a child abuser...These people may not realize it, but that may be what they have been led to believe.

What good parent would "want" their beloved children sick? For any reason?

8/1/2009 4:57:40 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

People who are angry at God because of their illness are very likely not to understand the sufficiency of God's grace.

Perhaps their Christian education led them more toward believing the Christian life is supposed to be smooth sailing with unlimited wealth and health treasures for this life.

When that fantasy was shattered with illness, maybe they got mad at the entity they thought proposed the dream.

Grace is a broader concept than unmerited pardon for sins.

Grace includes the fact that God purposefully created each person to fulfill a specific purpose. God, through His grace, is perusing a relationship with each person; He provides trials to shape the person into who He desires us to be.

Grace is all about the sovereignty of God - He owns our lives and has the sole authority to do with us what He wants. Everything God does is good - even when we may feel it hurts. He chooses our birthday and appoints the day of our death.

Recently at church, a lesson in the sufficiency of God's grace was given. Although we are unschooled and have no roots in the Baptist tradition, we find our selves happily involved with a Southern Baptist congregation which is juggling old time traditions with some urgency to update some practices.

My wife and I always sit on the front row and just like a couple of kids, our minds often wander to less than holy hobbies. I lovingly blame my wife for enticing me toward her distraction, which is borne from her difficulties understanding English.

We had a terrible fascination with a couple in the choir who really rock out each song. Although their heads and torsos are bouncing faster than the tempo of the music, they dare not move a single foot - lest it be dancing - and thereby cause a few heat attacks amongst the old-timers.

My wife and I goofed on what we thought was over exaggerated enthusiasm. We always joked that today may be the day they can't restrain their feet and they cause mayhem by dancing in the aisles. We often tried to gain their attention and suggest, "GO FOR IT!", with every speck of persuasiveness that our raised eyebrows could muster.

However, at the conclusion of a recent service, the pastor announced that He was so proud of this particular couple. He mentioned that they insisted on fulfilling their varied commitments to serving, including singing in the choir, even though they had buried their 18 year-old son a couple of days ago.

The pastor also mentioned that 28 classmates of the deceased and 2 of his adult relatives had made commitments to Christ during the week of this tragedy.

The son had been instantaneously killed in a car crash. He had no time to demand God's healing.

His parents buried him and then came to church praising God for His sufficient grace - with peace in their hearts and joy in their bodies (from the ankles up).

Had God not allowed my wife and I to spend so much time noticing and teasing this couple for an enthusiasm we did not understand - the lesson of God's sovereign grace may not have hit us so hard.

If you have children, you can fathom a bit of how devastating this type of tragedy is. God protects and heals. But when troubles plague Christians who believe God delivers protection and healing to our specifications and demands, they often become angry, disillusioned and hopeless when they don't receive what hey had expected.

When Christians understand the sufficiency of God's grace they can get through anything - while praising God for His greatness.

Is there anything for which God's grace is not sufficient?

8/1/2009 11:01:55 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Another thought:

The other day, I overheard a conversation about how Paul had been called to become an apostle before he was born. I can see some scriptural evidence to support that claim.

So, although I was not invited to join the conversation, I thought the next logical question would be - If Paul was called to be an apostle before his birth, were those Christians he had killed when he was still Saul, predestined from birth to become martyrs?

That question would be followed by - could Saul have become the Apostle Paul and penned those great letters if he had not first caused some to be martyred?

God did work all out to His purpose in the story of Paul.

Perhaps all the lauded martyrs of the Bible should not have allowed God to withhold His protection from them. Maybe all the people around the world who will face the fate of martyrdom during this year should demand God's healing instead.

As a sword begins to cut a neck, should a faithful prayer always stop the bleeding and repair the damaged tissue? When fire singes the outer layer of skin, can't the faith of one willing to die for their beliefs proclaim their flesh is healed, so that the fire does not burn through their bones?

Do martyrs give their lives for the sake of Jesus' name or because they didn't know they could demand healing? Does God reward martyrs for their faithful sacrifice or pity them for their ignorance?

God is in control of all - and illness, death and martyrdom exist in this world. God could completely stop Satans every move today; however, God is working out a plan, with a specific purpose for each person - while He allows Satan to be active in the world.

God is not a child abuser for allowing sickness (which He could stop) nor is God a child killer for allowing His people to suffer martyrdom (which He could also stop). God is love - and he works everything to His good and loving purpose.

The shame of a botched tattoo, like the tattoo itself, is only skin deep. But the guilt felt from having killed Christians would cut to the bone.

Someone had suggested Paul's thorn may have been guilt over having had Christians put to death. If this was the case, God's grace - in the form of reminders for Paul to relax, it was all part of His plan - may have been the only thing sufficient to help Paul cope with what he had done.

By Jesus' stripes we are healed - and like He was resurrected, we will be raised to eternal life in His presence! Christians are looking forward to the fulfillment of both!

8/1/2009 12:07:24 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

God's grace is sufficient to cover the anger of the believer. And fear, while it may not be a sin, goes against the teachings of scripture. Fear is the opposite of faith. The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. The words, "Fear Not" are found in the OT and NT. Which would suggest fear is something to be avoided while faith is to be pursued.

8/1/2009 1:22:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Debora,

I want to thank you for being a part of the Hospice program...I really see you guys as walking talking angels sent by God to comfort those in their last months, days and hours...

Many years ago, when my mother in law, was dying of cancer the Hospice staff and nurses were God-sent, not only to her but to us. I was always looking for their "hidden angels wings"..:)smile

Mom's response when finding out she had cancer was...."Well...I've lived way longer than I thought I would or wanted to already...I'm not scared...and I'm ready to go!" (She was 93)

When we asked her how she wanted us to pray, she said..."I just don't want any pain"...so that's what we prayed..

Mom was a Christian and knew where she was going when she died. Looking back on it in retrospect, and as strange as this may sound, I think she was actually grateful to be dying. She was tired of living, or maybe just ready to be with the Lord. Maybe both?

We watched her fade from a robust 180lb woman to a mere 90lbs or less before she went to be with our Lord...She refused all medication, wouldn't eat very much and had a peace that passes all understanding... She even made jokes about being skinny again, like she was when she was young.

She would wake up from a nap and tell us about the dreams she was having of heaven. Dreams about her beloved husband and the brothers who were waiting for her there...I think she stayed as long as she did because we weren't ready to let her go yet.

By the time they found the cancer it was all over her body, and even though she should have been in terrible pain, she wasn't. Only those last couple of hours were uncomfortable for her. God had answered our prayer for no pain. She just simply slipped away in her sleep and woke up to eternal life and received her ULTIMATE HEALING!!..

She showed all of us how to die with dignity, all under the tender care of the Hospice staff members just like you...

Thank you..

8/2/2009 5:25:27 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,

You're so sweet. I'm glad that your mother's passing was peaceful and painless, and that she received such good hospice care. Hospice is such an important model of care- it recognises that spiritual support is equally important at the end of life, and this is provided to both patients and their families.

as strange as this may sound, I think she was actually grateful to be dying. She was tired of living, or maybe just ready to be with the Lord. Maybe both?

It doesn't sound strange to me at all- when I first started working at the hospice I was amazed by the resilience of some of the patients when hearing of their terminal diagnosis. I now realise the benefit of having that diagnosis in advance- families are better supported and deaths are more dignified when they can be planned and prepared for.

That ties in with Ryan's story of the couple in his church- although their son's death was sudden and unexpected, they displayed that extra-special resilience which can only come from experiencing or having knowledge of God's grace. Ryan, that story has been on my heart since I read it- I'm so glad you shared it.

Someone needs to tell them that satan is the one who brought not only sin and rebellion, but sickness, disease, infirmities and physical death into the Garden of Eden....and that's why they are sick and dieing.

Unfortunately the "red tape" and anti-discriminatory nature of social work doesn't allow me to speak about my own faith in relation to the patients. I can encourage the patients to identify their spiritual/religious needs, and can refer them to the relevant hospice chaplain for spiritual support, but most people will refuse this if they are angry with God. I love my job, but sometimes it's very frustrating to have to stand back and watch people struggle when help is available to them.

I think it is human nature to look for someone or something to blame when facing illness and death, and for many people blaming God must be a kind of coping mechanism. I suppose that's between them and God, as only they know what's in their hearts, but I think Jesus would understand how difficult it is to face death.

I realise I have slightly steered the discussion away from healing- feel free to swing it back in that direction!

Debora

8/3/2009 2:09:59 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Michael,

Thank you so much for validating my views and this topic...

I do hope you are right about people learning from it..

I still find it frustrating to believe that even after all the scriptural basis many are still opposed to my theory of what Pauls thorn was...which may be further proof of it being so ingrained into our modern day theology that has been past down from generation to generation as a way to explain why some don't get healed? Just food for thought..

My theory being... Paul's thorn was simply what he said it was...a messenger (demon) sent by satan (NOT from God) to buffet (cause persecution or stop) him from spreading the Gospel to the gentiles..and God's response to Paul's request for Him to stop it was..."No...My grace is sufficient".

Using scripture outside the context in which it was said to justify or speculate about it being sexual lust, back problems, eye-sight, guilt, punishment for pride, teach about grace or any other thing, in my opinion, is not rightly divided the Word of God, or at the very least conjecture or guessing..and certainly not conclusive.

Jesus said He came doing and saying only what His Father told Him to do and say, so His ministry must always be the basis, comparison or template we use to translate other scripture, including how we should translate what Paul's thorn was.

Jesus said that we would face many tests, trials, tribulations and persecutions for the Gospels sake. God's grace, imparted to us through the power of the Holy Spirit residing within us, is sufficient for that...but at the very same time He went about healing ALL who were sick...which shows the two subjects must be separated.

To me, that clearly shows that Jesus made it crystal clear that persecution due to preaching the Gospel and medically related sickness, disease and infirmities are two separate and unrelated issues..

In my opinion satan is taking full advantage of the figure of speech, or metaphor (thorn in the flesh) Paul chose to describe the persecution, by deceiving people into believing it was something in his physical "flesh".

All I know is when people, who do want to be well, but have been led to believe that God may want them to remain sick using Paul's thorn as a basis for that belief, finally see my point are able to receive healing either immediately or over time while others who don't see my point remain sick and some die.

And Debora has brought up another good point..

When people are deceived into believing the lie, so some do blame God like the man she talked about and gets mad at God...Some do run from God instead of to Him for protection against satan who is trying to steal, kill and destroy their life...

His grace helps us endure, but by His stripes we are healed.

What do you think?

8/3/2009 8:18:14 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

kcgodlyman,

Just checking to see how you're doing this week?

8/9/2009 5:04:57 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

I am reevaluating my life and my faith, trying to figure out where I am going wrong. God's answer to my pleas for healing is still "Wait" and I can't understand why I am unable to claim His promise of healing to all the faithful.

Right now I would even accept the ultimate healing of going home to be with the Lord if that is what it takes to end this pain, but even that is not to be apparently. The doctors say that aside from my injury and arthritis I am very healthy. The Lord has given me health, but not healing; I am not sure where, or what, I have missed.

8/10/2009 3:24:59 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

I don't think you're doing anything wrong...Your faith is strong and you are relying on and in God to give you grace...just like I did for over 15 years with my back problems. I wanted to give up too, some days were so hard all I could do was cry..I didn't give up, and from what I know about you from your amazing testimony and from your previous post (below), you're not a quiter either..

While I must admit that the pain is ferocious and that I feel a bit lost in life at the moment, please know that my faith in God is not wavering. If anything, it is growing stronger by the day. Being a leader of a small bible study, I am digging into the Word and partnering with the Holy Spirit in a mighty way these days. I am also working to put together a ministry to mentor newlyweds. My last post was the result of a fear that someone whose faith was weaker would give up faced with some of the statements withing this discussion. It would be very easy to give up if I wasn't so sure that God is molding and shaping my life to create His masterpiece. As it is, I am sure that my suffering has a purpose and I am content to wait until the Lord is finished with His work within me and reveals the finished product.

I'm glad to hear the doctors say you are overall very healthy..that is a gift from God...and IS a form of healing..

I don't know what your injuries are, but I do believe in time, with good medical help and the Lord's grace to sustain you, you will be back on your feet literally and figuriitively with a testimony that will blow people away..

All of us have a "cross" to bare, mine is living in an unequally yoked marriage. That kind of pain is just as debilitating as a physical one. My heart breaks to think my husband will never come to a heart knowledge of the Lord...He knows "about" the Lord, but he doesn't "know" Him...you know what I mean? My heart breaks to think he might not go to heaven with me...

I'm so glad the Lord is using you to help newlyweds...Have you heard of the "Fireproof" book and movie?

How is your small group going?...Maybe you could start a discussion on what your teaching in that group?..

8/10/2009 4:38:32 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

kcgodlyman,

Do not let the enemy talk you into believing you missed anything. You are healthy and healed.

Lapanache,

The Word says an unbelieving husband is sanctified by his believing wife (1 Cor. 7:14). And as surely as our minds, bodies and spirits are healed, so also are our marriages healed by the same Spirit.

Since we have what we say, let's say only those things that are lovely and praise worthy. By His stripes kcgodlyman is healed. Lapanache's husband is an awesome man of God who loves her like Christ loves the Church. Amen. It is so.

8/11/2009 2:57:31 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Thank you both for your kind thoughts. Just to let you know, I fired the surgeon I was seeing for my back and I am now preparing to see one that came highly recommended. Some of my frustration was in dealing with the workers compensation system and the doctor they had sent me for consultation. God is in control of it all and I place it all in His loving hands!

As to the class I teach; last season we discussed 1 and 2 Peter. Prior to that was my first year leading the group and I took them through Revelation. Wow, what a year of discovery it was for my friends and I as we studied John's visions. This fall I will start off in Amos and then transition to a book call "Jesus of Suburbia" which is a discussion of how the church in America tends to minimize Christ's power and majesty and focus more on His love and friendship. I am looking forward to discussing this book with my friends, for it is a subject I have preached more than once. Christ is far more complex than most of us recognize and it is good to remember His other aspects.

Blessings to you!

8/11/2009 3:29:43 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

I went and read an excerpt of the "Jesus of Suburbia" book you mentioned...and it sounds facinating...It sounds like it rocks the boat, so to speak..right up my alley!!

I think I'll get this book and read it...

John Erre also wrote a book called "Death by Church", and is supposed to be a good one too...

8/11/2009 7:23:22 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

mrspiggy,

Thank you for the encouragement.

My husband is a good man, and we have a good marriage, but he just doesn't see the need for Jesus in his day to day life...He doesn't see the relevance of Christianity...

What he needs is a Saul/Paul moment??

8/12/2009 4:12:19 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Mike Erre is a pastor in my home town, and he and I email each other on occasion. I love his point of view and will probably go try his church some Sunday in the near future. Enjoy the book, it really got my blood, and faith, flowing.
Blessing upon you!

8/12/2009 9:14:05 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kc,

Give me a quick run-down of the book...Is Mike saying that we (Americans) water down who Jesus REALLY is?...

That our churches have a tendency to teach Jesus as our nice loving friend (which is true) but leave out or neglect that He is also and formost our ALL POWERFUL AND MAJESTIC THE Lord of lords, and THE King of kings?...

8/12/2009 11:38:10 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

You've got it! His premise is that most Americans have lost sight of the power and majesty of our God. We have tamed Him down and diluted His awe inspiring nature. Our image of Jesus is one of love, compassion and friendship, but we neglect the other sides of our Lord. We have forgotten that He also must be regal, that He will come with a two edged sword and that He is King of kings and Lord of lords! Our country does not have royalty and we have forgotten how to give due homage to our King.

There is my 25 cent version. I am still reading the book, but Mike sure has my attention. I have been telling people for years that we take Jesus too much for granted and we have lost the "fear of the Lord" that we need to recapture.

Blessings upon you!

8/12/2009 3:46:27 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kc,

I was raised in a church that preached Hell's Fire and Brimestone. "If you don't straighten up and fly right...YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!!

As a result I grew up afraid of Him, believing that He was some great big aweful mean guy sitting way up on His heavenly throne far away and distant...full of anger, and wrath, just waiting for me to do something wrong so He could send down some catastrophe to punish me..Yikes!!

I ran from Him for many years as a result...Who wants to serve a God like that?...I didn't.

That kind of preaching did and still does scare the "Hell" out of some. But that view of God leaves many walking around on egg shells. It also leads some to believe that all the bad stuff that happens to them is because God is punishing them for something..

I don't know about you, but I blow it everyday...I say or do something every single day, that just proves one more time how much I am in need of a Savior..My best is just not good enough, and it never will be. Thank God for Jesus!!

Finally someone told me that God loves me. ME, just the way I am. He sent His only beloved Son Jesus to die for ME..with all my flaws, in spite of all my sin...and what He REALLY wanted was a personal relationship with ME...

That is when I gave my life to Him..When someone finally told me that He wasn't mean or distant and full of wrath. Punishment, anger, wrath and condemnation were not on His agenda.

He is full of unconditional (agape) love for me...I ran to THAT God...I needed THAT God..I adore THAT God...I worship THAT God...and I live to please THAT God...

For me, the difference between a relationship with the God I was brought up to believe in and the real one I finally met was...I HAD to obey the old one...but I GET to obey this new one...

I don't HAVE to serve Him...I GET to serve Him..I don't HAVE to worship Him...I GET to worship Him...there is a big difference...

On the other hand, like Mike says we have gone to far even in that direction too, because He is the Great IAM! He is ALL MIGHTY!!...He is MAJESTIC and ALL POWERFUL...and He deserves our reverential fear of Him, but not the kind of tormenting fear that some denominations push...

Just today, as my children and I were preparing for their bible study class tonight, one of their friends was here and joined us...You could tell by some of the things he was saying that God is used in his home like the boogy man under the bed is, to scare him into being "a good little boy". That's a shame. It may be hard for him to have a loving relationship with a God like that...

I love the story of the Prodigal Son...that wonderful story tells so much about what He is really like...

I do agree with Mike and you though..we need to be taught ALL of His aspects and character traits...

We must begin to see Him somewhere in the middle between our loving Heavenly Father who delights in our fellowship and the God who demands obedience.

8/12/2009 5:01:51 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

kc, (I hope you don't mind me calling you that?)

After re-reading my last post I realize that instead of talking about Jesus, who the book is about, I ended up talking about God the Father instead...

I guess I'm still having trouble wraping my brain cells around the Trinity..

I do see Jesus as the perfect reflection of the Father and vice-versa.

8/12/2009 10:35:48 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Lapanache,
My heart moves with such anguish as I read the prayer requests each day. Families everywhere are under attack by our enemy and they feel so helpless and lost. I offer what encouragement I can and of course I lift them up in prayer, but the pain is so real and overwhelming it brings me to tears.

This back injury of mine is the second in 8 years. My wife and I have been together 11 years and married 10. I am so blessed to have a wife who is so supportive of me. She has shouldered an incredible burden with me being disabled for now. I cook and do dishes and make the bed and that is about the extent of what I can manage. She has stuck with me and been tremendous. She has encouraged me to pursue my new ministry, knowing that it takes time and energy from me. The Holy Spirit is so active in our lives at this time. Our Lord and Savior Jesus is right in the middle of our family. How can I complain about anything, when God has provided all I need at this time?

Blessings upon you!

8/18/2009 10:56:09 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

(The original post was relating to Paul's thorn in the flesh, sorry for skipping most of what lies between here and there).

My personal feeling is that perhaps Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was a physical affliction that he suffered. Since it was "in the flesh," it apparently wasn't spiritual or mental. It was apparently something prominent, which caused him considerable embarrassment as well as discomfort and inconvenience. Some scholars have even suggested that it was some affliction that affected his eyes (please see Gal 4:13-15). Maybe, just maybe, Paul was ever to carry about with him in the body the marks of Christ's glory, in his eyes, which had been blinded by the heavenly light . . .

8/19/2009 10:04:05 PM by SERVANT, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/19/2009

Servant,

I'm so glad you joined our discussion here...

I've been traveling out of the country and just returning which is why I haven't responded before now..sorry.

Like you and others, I used to think Pauls thorn was something physical too...and to be honest I think more people believe it was a physical something. i.e.; eyes, back problems...etc...Like the scholars you referred to. On the other hand there are many others who believe the way I do...

The differences seem to be rooted in the different denominational doctrines or church traditions more than it does on a scriptural basis. In other words, it's just what people have been told/taught generation after generation, so that's what they believe, or don't believe.

I still believe it was persecution inspired by a demon sent by satan to buffet him, or hinder his progress in spreading the Gospel to the gentiles. For me, it is the only thing that lines up with scripture overall and as a whole.

I also believe if it were something of a physical nature he would have just used plain old every day language instead of using a metaphor to describe it.

Hopefully, by now you have had time to read all the posts here which will give you a better idea of why I believe the way I do...

I look forward to hearing more of what you think...

Yours in Christ,
Lapanache

8/24/2009 12:22:13 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Below I have pasted an article written by Rick Renner the author of Sparkling Gems from the Greek He is just one of the greek scholars who believe along the same lines as I do..

Its a pretty long article, but well worth the read..

What Was Pauls Thorn in the Flesh?

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,
lest I should be exalted above measure.
2 Corinthians 12:7

In Second Corinthians 12:7, the apostle Paul writes that he had been given a thorn in the flesh because of the abundance of the revelations he had received. Today I want us to delve into this verse to discover the identity of this thorn in the flesh and where it came from. Did it come from God, as some assert, or was this thorn personally sent from Satan to impede Paul from making an even greater impact with his ministry?

Lets begin looking for the answer to this question by carefully examining Pauls words in Second Corinthians 12:7. He writes, And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations.

The words exalted above measure are taken from the Greek word huperairo, a compound of the words huper and airo. The word huper means over, above, and beyond. It depicts something that is way beyond measure and conveys the idea of something that is greater, superior, higher, better, more than a match for, utmost, paramount, or foremost. It could also describe something that is first-rate, first- class, top-notch, unsurpassed, unequaled, and unrivaled by any person or thing. The second part of the word huperairo (exalted above measure) means to lift up, to raise, or to be exalted.

When these two Greek words are compounded to form the word huperairo, it speaks of a person who has been supremely exalted. This is a person who has been magnified, increased, and lifted up to a place of great prestige and influence. Although huperairo could be used to express the idea of a person who has haughtily exalted himself, this is not the idea Paul has in mind when he writes this verse. Rather, this is a person who has been greatly honored and recognized due to something he has written, done, or achieved.

Notice that Paul refers to the abundance of the revelations that God had given to him. The word abundance is the Greek word huperballo, a compound of the word huper, described above, and the word ballo, which means to cast or to throw. But when these two words are compounded to form the word huperballo, it describes something that is phenomenal, extraordinary, unparalleled, or unmatched. It is the picture of an archer who aims for the bulls eye; but when he releases the string and shoots his arrow, he watches as his arrow flies way over the top of the target. Now Paul uses this word to explain that the revelations he had received were not only unparalleled in quality, but the vast number of them were far beyond what anyone else had ever received.

The word revelations is from the Greek word apokalupsis. It refers to something that has been veiled or hidden for a long time and then suddenly, almost instantaneously, becomes clear and visible to the mind or eye. It is like pulling the curtains out of the way so you can see what has always been just outside your window. The scene was always there for you to enjoy, but the curtains blocked your ability to see the real picture. But when the curtains are drawn apart, you can suddenly see what has been hidden from your view. The moment you see beyond the curtain for the first time and observe what has been there all along but not evident to you that is what the Bible calls a revelation.

From Pauls words in Second Corinthians 12:7, we know that the curtain had been pulled apart and Paul had seen into the spirit realm on many occasions. Hed had an abundance of these experiences. It was this abundance of the revelations that Paul was preaching as he traversed the regions surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. Everywhere he went, he preached what had been divinely revealed to him. As he preached, his power, authority, and fame grew greater and greater. As his authority grew, so did his ability to impact the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Due to these revelations and his boldness to preach them, Paul was unquestionably becoming one of the most influential men of his day.

Now Paul lets us know that Satan was alarmed by the great progress the apostle was making with the Gospel; therefore, the enemy launched an full-scale attack to impede that progress. Satan didnt want Paul to be recognized or magnified to a greater extent than he already was. Instead, the devil wanted to pull down this man of God to ruin him, to destroy him, and to discredit the message he preached. Since there was no moral flaw in Paul that Satan could use to destroy him, he inflicted Paul with a thorn in the flesh.

The word thorn is the Greek word skolops, a word used to describe a dangerously sharp, spiked instrument or tool. However, this word was also used to describe the stake on which an enemys head was stuck after being decapitated.

The word skolops gives the impression that this thorn was excruciatingly painful. Some have suggested that the words in the flesh refer to a physical sickness, but this is not affirmed by any scripture in the New Testament and should be taken as unsubstantiated conjecture. People have gone so far in their imaginations as to assert that Paul suffered from malaria, epilepsy, eye disease, club feet, or a hunched back. There is nothing in any New Testament scripture to back up such speculations!

One thing is clear, however: Satan wanted Pauls head on a stake! He wanted to eliminate this man of God and put him completely out of the picture. Instead of referring to sickness, the words in the flesh most likely describe a type of event that was a constant source of irritation to the apostle Paul. This event caused him personal distress and kept reoccurring over and over again. For this reason, he referred to it as a thorn in the flesh.

Some argue that God sent this thorn in the flesh to keep Paul from being prideful about his many revelations. But there is no reason to debate this issue, for Paul plainly wrote that it was a messenger of Satan to buffet me. The word messenger is the Greek word angelos, a word that can describe an angel; one who is sent on a special mission; or a messenger who is dispatched to perform a specific assignment. This messenger of Satan, perhaps a demonic angel, was sent directly from Satan himself to buffet Paul and to restrict the progress of his ministry.

This thorn in the flesh categorically did not come from God; otherwise, Paul would have called it a messenger of God. Paul himself plainly states that this thorn in the flesh was given to him by a messenger of Satan a special force that had been dispatched to keep Paul from gaining additional status and prestige and to prevent him from taking the Gospel further and higher into the world scene.

Look at the facts: Paul was preaching to kings, governors, and world leaders. He was establishing churches, writing New Testament scriptures, and pushing back the forces of hell. His personal influence was growing, and his impact was increasing day by day. The revelations that God had given him were about to change the course of human history. Fearing that Pauls influence would grow too great, Satan strategically sent forces who had been instructed to create disturbances to buffet the apostle.

The word buffet is the Greek word kolaphidzo, a Greek word that comes from the word kolaphos, a word that describes the fist or knuckles. When it becomes the word kolaphidzo, as Paul uses it in Second Corinthians 12:7, it refers to beatings with the fist. The Greek tense describes unending, unrelenting, continuous, repetitious beatings. This means Paul is not telling us of a single event, but of a series of many events. This word kolaphidzo (buffet) gives us our greatest insight into the thorn in the flesh Paul is writing about in this verse.

As noted earlier (see October 17-30), Paul endured many afflictions during his ministry. Many of the afflictions he faced were due to the religious leaders who so fiercely opposed him. These religious leaders included Jewish leaders who hated him and his message. They also included false brethren who were constantly trying to displace his position of authority in the local churches. Paul was resisted outside the church by leaders of the Jewish faith who hated him. He was also opposed from within the church by those who wanted him out of the picture so they could take his place of prominence.

Thus, the biggest thorn in Pauls life was the fact that he had to deal with these different groups of people who covertly planned the problems and hassles he frequently faced in the ministry. A special messenger from Satan, perhaps even a demonic angel, had been sent to incite these people against Paul.

If you survey the types of ordeals Paul endured, you will see that many of them were orchestrated by these people who wanted to get rid of him. They were so teeming with hatred toward Paul that they wanted to see his head on a stake! These people were the primary source of Pauls problems and distractions he faced in his life and ministry.

One type of attack Paul experienced at his opponents hands were many physical beatings, which explains his use of the word kolaphidzo (buffet) in this verse. However, Paul was also constantly buffeted, harassed, hassled, and distracted by the negative activities of these people. As a result, he was hindered from focusing on what God had called him to do because of the great amount of time he had to spend defending his apostleship and answering the charges of those who were stirring up trouble against him. These opponents really were a thorn in the flesh for Paul. Their actions were a constant irritant that he had to deal with on an almost daily basis.

In light of these Greek words, consider this fresh
interpretation of Pauls words in Second Corinthians 12:7:

Because of the phenomenal revelations I have received and on account of the vast number of these revelations that God has entrusted to me and to hinder the highly visible progress I am making in the Lords cause a special messenger has been sent from Satan to harass me with constant distractions and headaches. Theres no doubt about it! Those whom Satan has stirred up against me want my head on a stake! Satan is using these people to constantly buffet and distract me in an attempt to keep me from reaching a higher level of visibility and recognition and to sidetrack me from preaching my revelations.

You see, Pauls thorn in the flesh wasnt sickness or epilepsy or any other physical malady; it was the people who opposed and irritated him and continually caused him problems! The devil used these people again and again, trying to keep Paul so distracted solving people problems that he wouldnt be able to make any more significant personal or Gospel advancements.

What about you, friend? What do you intend to do about the thorns that the devil is using to steal your joy and to sidetrack you from your mission? How do you intend to react to this ongoing disturbance? Paul never allowed people to keep him from fulfilling his divine call, so today I urge you to follow his example. Dont allow people to stop you! The devil is obviously afraid of you, your gifts, your potential, and your revelations; otherwise, he wouldnt need to incite people to stir up trouble for you.

More than likely, the opposition youre facing is a good indication that youre right on track. So just keep forging ahead toward your God-ordained goal, regardless of the distractions that try to steal your focus!

8/24/2009 1:00:22 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Servant,

Just wondering if you got a chance to read all the posts?

And if so, what do you think now?

8/29/2009 6:38:22 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Greetings:

I'm new to these forums and hope it's not too late to contribute to this thread.

When the Apostle Paul was talking about his "thorn in the flesh", he was correcting the church at Corinth with his second letter to them.

As you remember in 2 Corinthians, Paul starts by saying that it serves no good purpose for him to boast or brag about himself. Further in verse 7 he explains that a member of that church was working hard to discredit and embarrass him. Paul says, "and by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty".

In today’s vernacular, Paul might have said it something like this , "with overwhelming proof of smacking me around, a messenger of Satan, a royal pain in the neck, was given to me to keep me from getting a big head".

v 12 reaffirms by saying "Therefore I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful".

7/3/2010 2:36:21 PM by LifeSavers, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/3/2010

Hi LifeSavers,

I've enjoyed reading your posts!

The writings of the Apostle Paul are fascinating - I appreciated your comments.

7/15/2010 3:39:27 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

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