Who is God? I think a personal account of our experience of God might be helpful to someone who is searching. I'll throw this out there and see who bites........ What's He like? I mean to you personally. I'm not looking for scriptures describing Him, I'm looking for personal experience. How do you experience Him? Is He Loving? Friendly? Stern? What according to you makes Him laugh? Cry? Angry? Is there a difference to how you experience the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit? I don't think that God can be described by one person. Everybody will experience Him in a different way as He has many different aspects. I think that only by sharing our experiences will we get a better picture of who He really is. Do you have a testimony of something God did in your life that convinced you without a doubt that He exist and cares for you? I'm not looking for loooong life testimonies, just incidences.

3/31/2009 8:43:30 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

My Father and my LORD.

4/2/2009 10:31:10 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Thanks Mrspiggy for your response, short and to the point as it may be. Would you care to elaborate? I must say that I am speechless over everyone elses lack of enthusiasm to share their personal experience with God. I assume that their response (or lack thereof) is due to three reasons: 1. They are afraid that they will lose credibility with other members on this forum when they venture into an area that cannot be quoted from scriptures or 2. They do not want to share or, 3. They have nothing to share, I cannot help but notice how everyone is always very keen to debate the finer points of theology....... God is the kindest, most gentle person you will ever meet. He has a incredibly sharp sense of humour and is always willing and eager to forgive when you come to him and ask for forgiveness, no matter what you have done. He protects the ones who follow Him with a fierce intensity, but I tell you that I definitely do not want to be on His wrong side when He gets upset. Luckily He does not get upset easily. He directs my life and I am constantly amazed at His attention to detail. He will think of the smallest things. Here is an example: A few years ago I was a farmer and I lost 1000+ head of livestock to wild dogs in the space of two months. Nothing I did worked, every day I saw my familys future and years of blood sweat and tears lie dead in the field. At one stage I called God a vindictive old bastard. Long story short...I lost everything and reached a point where I lay in bed at night and wondered where I will get the money to buy food the next day for my family...I had nothing left. We had to give up the farm and move to the city, but did not have the money to pay for a move. We held a garage sale to try and raise the money. In the garage sale we were willing to sell everything we own to raise the money to pay for the move. We sold things at very low prices to get them off our hands, less to move right? At the end we only sold what we could not fit into our new home and the final amount was up to the dollar the same amount we needed for the move. This is more than coincidence!

4/4/2009 12:40:13 AM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Chrisv, The reason it seems to be difficult for us to converse without scripture is based on a scripture. :) For man does not live by bread alone, but by every word out of the mouth of the LORD. (Matt 4:4, Deut. 8:3) All that we know of Him is written in His Word (Bible). We read it and we live it. The reason is simple, yet another scripture. His Word says, "So is my Word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me void, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11) So, we only experience that which He has already said. We say what His Word has said. I say, "He is my Father" based on His Word. I say it and I get it. I don't know what you want me to say about that. We all know what a "Father" is and what He does. He takes care of His children. He has laid down the "house rules" and I follow them because He is my LORD also. He wakes me up each day, provides food, shelter and clothing. He protects me when the enemy comes near me and He loves me dearly. I am His "spoiled brat". He gives me most things I ask for. I know I come across as if I am special. That's because I am. I base my request according to His Word. "If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him." He is not a man that He should lie. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill? No, a good Father keeps His Word. Whatever I have need of, He supplies. He keeps my mind in perfect peace unless I allow "trash" in. He is my LORD. I worship Him because He is "All That." My life is wonderful because I chose to be "willing and obedient" to His commands. In summary, God IS Who He said He is. The Great I AM.

4/4/2009 1:48:12 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Last week, I was having car problems. I took it to the dealer and everything was repaired for 100 dollars, which is my deduction for my warranty. I was told I needed new tires. Ok, but where was the money to come from? We just paid our state income taxes as well as real estate taxes. I said to my Father, "I need new tires and money to pay for them." I got the urge to start looking for new tires. I priced out tires all over the area. In three days time, I got as many checks in the mail. I found a place that fit the amount of money I had and got up this morning to go there. I was thanking and praising God on the way. While sitting at the traffic light, I looked across the street and saw a discount tire center, I'd never seen before and I travel the street at least twice a week. I went there and got the set of tires 20 dollars less than the place I was headed to. I was able to spend the extra 20 on gas. That's how awesome He's been today.

4/4/2009 1:59:17 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Thank you for your response Mrspiggy. I see your response to other people elsewhere on this forum and it is obvious that you have a heart for hurting people. I honour you for that. You response now is what I was after in the first place. The reason I started this thread here and named it Who is God is so that people who do not know God and who do not believe in the Bible can come here and read first hand of the change Jesus has made in our lives and how we relate to Him. Believe me..... I speak from experience....... throwing scriptures at someone who do not believe in the Bible does not accomplish anything, it is totally meaningless to them. What does mean something however, is a testimony of your own personal experience. That is why I am hoping some more will come and share how they experience Jesus without drowning their testimonies in scriptures and thus make it unreadable for a person who do not believe.

4/5/2009 12:50:14 AM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Hey Chrisv - I really enjoyed reading your testimony; it's a terrific example of how God gets your attention and cares for you! I can totally relate to some of the concepts you used to describe attributes of God: humor, forgiveness and attention to detail. I can also relate to how many people react to the use of scripture in an attempt to persuade them of something they're not ready to accept. All too recently, that really irritated me, to the point I would become all the more entrenched in my disbelief. So, thanks for starting this discussion and sharing your story; I hope others benefit from it as much as I have enjoyed it!

4/6/2009 12:03:16 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Before I was ready to fully give the credit to God, I often thought it's a miracle that any boy survives long enough to become an adult, given all our foolish antics and the many snares of the world. Those feelings of being invincible, which most guys can relate to, are often supported by numerous near misses and death defying escapes. However, if we are really brave enough, we can consider God must be working life events toward some kind of purpose beyond our own choices and the whim of chance. Albert Einstein said, "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous." However, I think what we often tend to see as coincidence is, when we are ready to admit it, God working in our life. My wife is always discovering little coincidences which she says are proof that God put us together. We both tend to bore new friends with our numerous stories of how we met. I find it fascinating to recall those friends who have passed through my life since childhood - those who had each taught me a bit of Spanish along the way. However, my plans were always far from hooking up with a Spanish-speaking wife. One day, the thought that I should attempt reading the Bible came to me. I had also been thinking I should improve my ability to read Spanish. Providentially, I came across the opportunity to purchase a Spanish language Bible about two years before I met my Spanish-speaking wife. I'm not sure if the somewhat unrealistic idea of combining reading the Bible with sharpening language skills was based on efficiency or laziness. But, my wife was quick and confident to point out that it was the hand of God. When we were first getting to know each other, she was thrilled to discover that Bible among my possessions and we started reading it together. When we spent our first Christmas together, she gave me a painting of a statue in the Piazza San Marco in Venice, which she had done during her last trip to Italy. We compared dates and although neither of us could pinpoint the exact days we were in Venice, we determined I had also been there at roughly the same time. We were both able to vividly recall the thoughts that were weighing heavily on our minds at that time. The two of us had been contemplating how bittersweet it was to be in such a romantic place, surrounded by wonderful people, but to be so dreary and alone without knowing the right person. It was shortly after that trip to Italy when I purchased the Spanish Bible, and then a couple years later, after some necessary growth, I finally met my wife. It's overwhelming to think God could have had a plan for us that was started with details in childhood and was not thwarted by our own wayward inclinations. It is also amazing to see how God desires not only to make the plan, but also to be part of it.

4/6/2009 12:14:19 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Thanks for your posting Ryan, There is nothing that gives me a greater thrill than hearing stories of how God leads and guides us in His kind and gentle manner. Mrspiggy, please forgive me for my inability to express myself properly! Ryan is right, I meant that you obviously have a tender heart towards people that is hurting and are always the first one to respond with a gentle word of encouragement and I honour you for that!

4/6/2009 7:00:46 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Chrisv, I have no idea what you mean, but, you are forgiven. Actually, you express yourself well. It is a pleasure to read your posts.

4/6/2009 8:01:49 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I've enjoyed reading everyone's post! I remember when my friend's Parent's became believers. They would hang up Scriptures in their home, and it had such wonderful meaning to them. But to me, it was if I were reading Chinese... Later, when I became a believer and follower of Christ, God began to give me understanding, and then I couldn't put the Bible down! Looking back, I see that my Friends never stopped quoting Bible Verses, just because a non-believer was present. The Word became alive in them. As I watched their life transform, and their relationship with Jesus blossom, I realized something was missing in my own life, and that I wanted what they had. (They told me it was "Jesus!") To me, God and His Word cannot be seperated! I have come to know and love God through reading the Bible! I have also come to know and love myself, through reading the Bible. (Mind you, these words are comming from someone who previously hated life, and tried to commit suecide.) Jesus is Perfect. He is Holy. He is True. He is all knowing. His love is unconditional. His love has blasted me on different occasions, and left me wondering if Heaven is anything close to that, Eternity with Him is truly above anything I can imagine. Jesus is what my life was missing! He makes me complete and satisfied. He is my Lord, Savior, Master, Helper, Way Maker, Healer, Brother, Best Friend, Role Model, my Everything! Jesus is the Word made flesh! ("And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14) I would love to stand on top of the world and shout, I LOVE YOU JESUS!!!!! THANK YOU FOR LOVING US, EVEN WHEN WE DIDN'T WANT ANY PART OF YOU IN OUR LIVES. MAY MORE PEOPLE SEE THEIR NEED FOR YOU IN THEIR LIVES TODAY. BE GLORIFIED!

4/7/2009 4:22:44 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

YeeeeeHaaaaa! IgnitedFaith, you just ignited my faith some more! I'm so excited that I am hopping on my chair! As the Aussies would say "Good on you Mate!". I just love to hear stories of how God snatched people back from the brink of despair to set them on their feet and show them how special they all are! To anyone who reads this post and who is wondering if God is real, these stories are real stories of how God influenced and changed our lives. We are not making this up...the fact that God changed me from the violent tempered ex-cop into the person I am today is proof in itself that He exists.

4/7/2009 6:56:23 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Ignited Faith, My sister, my friend. You are hilarious. Thank you for sharing. COS: I recently posted a prayer request for my friend Pam's father. He passed away Saturday. Today she sent me something I'd like to share wih you guys. The U in Jesus Before U were thought of or time had begun, God stuck U in the name of His Son. And each time U pray, you'll see it's true, You can't spell out Jesus and not include U. You're a pretty big part of His wonderful name, For U, He was born; that's why He came. And His great love for U is the reason He died, It even takesU to spell crUcified. Isn't it thrilling and spendidly grand He rose from the dead, with U in His plan? The stones spilt away, the gold trumpet blew, and this word resUrrection is spelled with a U. When JesUs left earth at His Upward ascension, He felt there was one thing He just had to mention. "Go into the world and tell them it's true, That I love them all - Just like I love U". So many great people are spelled with a U, Don't they have a right to know Jesus too? It all depends now on what U will do, He'd like them to know, But it all starts with U. When Jesus died on the cross He was thinking of U! I was so touched, I had to share.

4/7/2009 11:39:25 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

This is probably the most profound representation of scripture I have ever seen in my life. If you haven't seen this yet, you will be moved and blessed by it. http://www.fathersloveletter.com/video.html

4/8/2009 6:05:28 AM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Chrisv, I agree wholeheartedly. Beautiful. It would be awesome if it were shown on television a couple of times a day. Just imagine...

4/8/2009 11:03:39 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

It is really a good place to find the truth Here we can share my believes and my doubts I believe that there is A GREAT GOD created the perfect universe in perfect way and he put perfect rules to run it. If you look at the stars in the sky and think about how great these stars are, that will lead you to think about how great is the creator. He is extremely powerful and can do everything he wants to do because everything is his creation. He provides us food, air, water ...etc, so he is merciful caring about his creatures. And he put some rules for us to follow because he created us and he knows what is good and what is bad for us. If we did not follow his orders, we get lost but his forgiveness includes everybody if we go back to him But I do not believe that such a great GOD is a human been who was born from a female and he needs food to live and he needs other human been to help him. But I believe that this GOD is able to create a human been without a father as a miracle to the people to see his power and he do not need to but himself in a human body and kill himself just to forgive his servant because he is able to forgive without doing so because he the one to forgive and nobody question him about what he did.

4/12/2009 1:53:26 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Hi God_lover, thanks for sharing your beliefs. Forgive me, but the last paragraph of your posting is a bit unclear to me. The way I read your last passage is that you say you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that He actually existed, but you do not believe that Jesus was God?

4/12/2009 8:48:46 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

You are right Chrisv, I believe that Jesus existed, but I do not believe that Jesus is God. If Jesus was born of a virgin without father that does not mean that he is a God, otherwise Adam is more to be said is God because he was created from neither father nor mother. Can you please explain to me or persuade me why you do believe that Jesus is God

4/14/2009 6:00:56 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Thank you, God_lover for your willingness to share your beliefs. I admire the fact that you are willing to come onto a Christian forum and state your belief that you do not believe that Jesus is God. I pray that you will find your comments and questions here will always be answered with the dignity and respect that you deserve. As to me convincing you that Jesus is God....I unfortunately cannot do that. You can only convince yourself. If there was ultimate proof that Jesus is God, everybody on earth would be worshipping Him. For some reason God made it so that there must be a element of faith involved. I can only share with you why I believe Jesus is God and I hope and pray that you can get something out of my experience that will lead you to the truth. The number one reason I believe Jesus is God is because the Bible says so. Years ago I investigated the Bible and wanted to "authenticate" it for myself. Being a ex-cop I need proof before I believe in something, so I set out and investigated the Bible and it's origins and compared it to the other books of religion in the world. I concluded that there are a lot of facts indicating the authenticity of the Bible and the fact that it is the Word of God. My only predicament was that I did not know which parts of the Bible to believe, since there seemed to be a bunch of conflicts in the Bible (and a bunch of things I did not like). This is where the faith part comes in......I had to decide to believe in the whole Bible or not at all. If I only believed in parts of the Bible, I would constantly be wondering and I cannot live like that. So I made the decision to believe in all of the Bible and everything it says. That is how faith begins you see......with a decision, you have to decide to believe in something. God_lover, you obviously believe in the Bible since you say you believe in Adam and the fact that Jesus existed. Question is, do you only believe parts of the Bible or everything? Granted, there a parts in the Bible I do not understand, but I do not allow that to take anything away from the parts of the Bible that I do understand. The second reason I believe Jesus is God..... I have seen sick people get healed in the Name of Jesus, I have seen people that have been in wheelchairs for most of their lives get up and walk. I've stood in front of them and looked into their eyes and seen the joy and wonder that can only come from being touched by a living God. I've seen deaf people hear, blind people see, people with cancer healed and more. The third reason I believe Jesus is God..... I have seen broken people made whole in an instant, I have seen hardened criminals and drug addicts stand on their knees and cry like babies at the touch of Jesus. I have seen them get up from the floor and change their lives from anger, hatred, crime and drug addiction to lives where they are gentle, devoted family men that have a heart for broken people. I have seen twice a day(means they shot up twice a day, which is a very advanced stage of heroin addiction) heroin addicts go cold turkey and have no withdrawal symptoms (this is medically impossible) only by the power of Jesus. The fourth reason I believe Jesus is God..... I see in the world we live in that even the way we measure time is governed by the birth and life of Jesus. I see a world we live in where the laws that govern the way we live is based on laws set down by the same Bible that states the Jesus is God. The fifth reason I believe Jesus is God, I look at all the amazing people He created with their gifts, including you, God_lover with your amazing ability to stay calm and collected when everyone around you is panicking and I think by myself that, surely Jesus must be God. The sixth reason I believe Jesus is God.... I see the person I was before I believed in Him and the struggles I had to become a better person and the lack of success I had in overcoming issues in my life. I see how my life changed since I decided to believe that Jesus is God and that I will serve Him.........and I don't just believe, but I KNOW Jesus is God.

4/14/2009 7:06:03 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_Lover, For me, believing that Jesus was the Son of God has everything to do with the resurrection. The evidence that this event actually happened is, for me, very persuasive. When I consider this event, I have to conclude that He was everything He said He was. Anyone can say they are God, but they better be willing to back it up with something that only God can do if they want to be taken seriously. The resurrection is all that and more. Here is an article I hope might help: http://delveintojesus.com/articles/29/Did-Jesus-Christ-Really-Rise-from-the-Dead.aspx

4/14/2009 7:14:04 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Dear Chrisv, Thanks for your clarification, I agree with you that Bible was a word of God but not anymore, why is that? Because it was modified throughout about 2000 years. This is way you find different versions of Bible and you find conflict between these versions. Then, I can conclude from that not everything is in Bible is correct. Therefore, nobody can depend on Bible 100 to believe that Jesus is God. Secondly, you mentioned that the name of Jesus has the power of healing people; it could be that those people who believe in Jesus as God they are convinced that they can be healed by the power of his name, and it is known and proved scientifically that psychological believe can lead to such cases. In addition, I believe that Jesus was send by God to human beings to guide them to the right bath and to worship God like other profits like Moses and Abraham and others, and he was given the miracle of healing people and to resurrect people as support from God to convince people that he was sent by God as profit. Other profit got other miracles for example Moses was able to open a bath in the red sea, Suleiman was able to talk and speak animal languages ; does that means they are all God I do not think so. Criminal people when they fill the spiritual gab in their life they will feel surely better, because human beings have spiritual needs and they have other needs like food, sex, air . . etc. and to feel happy in this life they need to balance between these needs. Regarding the world is governed by the time of Jesus birth and lows of bible, this is not true for all nations in the earth, it is not true for Chinese for instance. Chinese they have their own calendar and they take lows from different resources. I believe that amazing people were created by the one, who created Jesus and made him amazing, this proves that God is amazing in his creation because he created Jesus and he created this amazing universe and created you as human being and gave you a mind to find the truth and to measure the facts that are available to you to decide which are true and which are not true. I cannot see how come one God become three as the same time. This makes me confused and lost. But I think believing Jesus is a human being created by God and was send as a profit this suite for my mind better and let me feel comfortable about it. I did not remember that I come cross that Jesus was controlling the universe while he was a live, and then after he was killed who will control the universe then. There must be somebody taking care of the universe. If the angles of God do not need to eat, drink even get married, what about Jesus, he was eating, drinking do a lot of things that people cannot survive without it. I think if Jesus was God then he will not need to drink or eat because these things are his creation and he does not need something he created. I hope that I made it clear to you what I believe and hope it make sense to you.

4/15/2009 8:45:05 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

I am spirit and soul in a body. I am mother and wife and sister. It is not strange to be three in one. In Genesis, God gave control of earth to man. Therefore, He had to enter earth as a human. Otherwise, satan would accuse Him of being unfair. So, God entered the earth as Jesus. He, God, wanted to show us how to live correctly. We are to follow His example. First, we must believe that He is Who He said He was. Son, Savior, Prophet, Teacher, Lord.

4/15/2009 10:03:29 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

God_lover, I just want to make one thing clear so there will be no misconceptions ......I absolutely believe in the Bible being the Word of God. I've never been a huge supporter of comparing the different translations to determine which one is the most accurate. For myself I use a combination of the NKJV, Message, and Amplified versions. This ensures that I get the whole picture without getting bogged down in translation issues. As far as the triune nature of God, I agree that the concept is very confusing but I must accept that there are things of God that I cannot fully understand. The best analogy I've heard that describes the Trinity is the one of water, ice and steam. They all are different, but yet they all are just water in a different form. Same with God, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all different but yet they are all God. That is enough for me, I not need more understanding than that. I believe that we must be careful not to try and mould God into something that we feel comfortable with. The fact remains that He is an Almighty, eternal being and we as humans do not have the capacity to understand Him fully. It is like comparing yourself to an ant, the ant goes about his business collecting food and building and protecting his nest. He is aware of you as a being that is much bigger and more powerful than he is but he has no knowledge of what you really are capable of or what you are about, since your life falls completely outside of his world. The same with God and us. Regarding God coming to earth as a human.......God is supposed to be fair and just right? Now, when I die and I go before the throne of judgement, and upon it sits a God that is going to determine if my life on earth was any good. How can His judgement be fair and just if He has no idea what it is like to live the life I've lived? He will have no idea what it is like to be tempted to do wrong, to be sick , hungry, alone etc. There is no way that I would accept His judgement as fair and just because He never lived on earth like I did. Now, because God came to earth as Jesus and lived on earth like I did and was human like I am, He can judge me because His judgement will be fair and just. I think the problem that you have is the fact the you do not have a source of truth in your life. See, I believe in the Bible as the source of truth, that is why I am content because I can find guidance in the source of truth. You need to be brought to a place where you can accept that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and it is true. Believe me, God_lover I can relate to your struggle....

4/15/2009 6:58:13 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Dears mrspiggy, Sorry for late reply. To answer you, you quoted from Bible I am spirit and soul in a body. I am mother and wife and sister. It is not strange to be three in one Which I do not rely on because I do not believe that Bible is the word of God anymore. In the other hand, if you look to the Quran, you will find that the Quran is preserved from change or corruption for about 1400 years as it was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed -peace be upon him- as God promises in one verse in the Quran: Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it. Because of this miracle you will not find two non-identical copies of Quran. And how come Satan can accuse God while Satan himself is created by God? Satan is slave of God; he is zero beside God. God is great and nobody can accuse or question him. He is the one who created everything and everybody and he controls everything in every single moment. For your information dear mrspiggy, Jesus is mentioned in Quran and I copied to you some verses that are talking about Jesus -peace be upon him- while Quan has more than that about Jesus: The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master. GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, This is obviously magic.' I hope this will make sense to your mind. O God please guide us to the right way and help us to see the light.

4/18/2009 2:26:12 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Dear Chrisv, Regarding that God is coming to earth is related to the fair of God, then what about people they came before Jesus are excluded from this fair? God sent prophets to us like Jesus as sample to follow, this is way he did not send an angel or even himself because we have different capabilities and we cannot do what God can do. And you people underestimate God capabilities by saying that God does not know what is happing on earth; He is the Hearer, the Seer. And believe me my dear; I have a good and more reliable source of truth in my life which is untouched by human beings, which is the Holy Quran. If you like I can prove it for you that the Quran is last and true word of God. And please refer to my reply to mrspiggy Thanks.

4/18/2009 2:51:01 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Ho God_lover, Forgive me, I did not intend to insult you by stating that you do not have truth. I was under the impression that you where searching for it, by your previous statement that the triune nature of God makes you confused and lost. Jesus' death on the cross impacted not only the people who lived after Him but also the people who lived before Him. After His death He went to the people who already died and gave them the oppertunity to be saved. The Bible in 1Pe 3:19 tells the story. I am unawary of any statements made that God is unaware of what happens on earth. He is omnipresent so He is aware of everyting, nothing escapes His attention....He is completely aware of all our actions and thoughts. Speaking of our actions and thoughts, from your statements I assume that you follow Islam? If so, have you done enough good deeds to ensure that you will be going to paradise?

4/18/2009 8:23:08 AM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_Lover, You wrote: "To answer you, you quoted from Bible I am spirit and soul in a body. I am mother and wife and sister. It is not strange to be three in one" This is not quoting the Bible. It is simply the truth. We are ALL spirits, with souls (will,mind, emotions) in bodies. It is our spirits that seek God Truth and our souls determine in what format, using our bodies. If you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, it's okay with me. It simply means you are not a Christian. I am amused by this: "I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. " It implies that Jesus was taught the Gospel, whereas, the Gospel is all about Jesus, Himself and His teaching and impact on the world. This does not make sense to my mind. My soul rejects it entirely. I see the light. And His Name is Jesus.

4/18/2009 12:12:14 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

What is God like? Simply look to the Lord Jesus In him do the Father's glories shine; in Him is the exact radiance of the father displayed; in the face of Christ the glory of the father is displayed; in the person of Christ the fullness of deity dwelt; whoever beholds Christ beholds the father. Is Christ to us like a good shepherd so is his father; is Christ to you gracious, compassionate and tender? so is his father. If anyone wants to know what God is like, then just look at Jesus

4/18/2009 12:56:49 PM by ParaHandy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Dear Chrisv, I did not feel that you insulted me; I know what your intention was. Thanks for you kind spirit. To answer you, if Jesus is dead, how he can go the people before him and gave them the opportunity to save them; he is already died!! (Does God die?) Regarding your second paragraph, if you believe that God is aware of everything on earth, and then what is the purpose making God himself as human and living on earth? And on the same time he can send prophets to people as a sample and to guide them to worship only God. Yes, I am a Muslim and I see the truth in Islam because I read the Quran and it makes everything clear to me about God and the creation of this universe and I would like to share this light with other people like you to find the truth.

4/18/2009 3:50:21 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Mrspiggy, Sorry for misunderstanding of your phrase, but what about this, I am a mother and wife and sister and grandmother and granddaughter; does that mean that it is not strange to be five in one? Yes, I believe that Jesus is prophet like other prophets and supported by miracle like each prophet was sent to people, therefore, I am not Christian, but I find myself in the light and I would like everybody to find the light I found in Quran. and know that God teach his creation everything they know

4/18/2009 4:12:25 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

God_lover, You did not answer the question I asked. My question to you still is: Are you certain that you will be going to paradise?

4/18/2009 8:26:52 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Hi ParaHandy, Thanks for your posting. Can you share what God means to you personally? A lot of people who read this do not know Jesus or what He is like. All they have is our personal testimony.

4/18/2009 8:35:32 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_Lover, To answer your question "Yes, that makes you five in one." You are a different personna with each individual. I know that you are well versed in the scriptures of the Holy Bible. So, you know Who the Great I AM, is. He is the Only One Who does not change. You, being 5 in 1, cannot possibly interact with each person in the same way. But, He can.

4/18/2009 9:24:04 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

God_lover, Have you ever read the Bible yourself? Here is a chapter that I think you will find interesting. "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:1-36

4/19/2009 12:46:25 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Chrisv, Here is the answer. Nobody can be certain about if he will be going to paradise, but to enter paradise, you have to believe on God, angels of God, books of God(Quran, Bible, Torah ,books of David, etc ), prophets of God(Mohammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc), faith of destiny and the Day of Judgment. These six things are the basics of faith and every believer must believe in. In addition, you must do good deeds and must follow instructions of God that he sent in his books (the correct word of God, which I believe is the Holly Quran) or instructed by his prophets, if you make a big sin, you have to ask God for forgiveness and to have intention not commit this sin again. Then God will reward you by entering paradise.

4/19/2009 6:41:57 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Mrspiggy, Thanks for the reply, but I still not convinced why the almighty God become a man just to forgive people while: 1. God is able to forgive Adam and his sons without making himself to live with his own creations. 2. When Jesus was killed as claimed and was barred for three days, who was taking care of the universe while he was underground died? 3. Why should God sacrifice his own son just for the sake of forgiving his servants, does that mean that God servants are more valuable to God from his own son?

4/19/2009 3:19:45 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Chrisv and all I was a sinner but Christ took my sin, all of my sin and now I am a forgiven sinner. Because of my sin, I was plagued with guilt, but now guilt has been dealt with I am guilty no more. Once I felt woefully inadaquate and unworthy of God, but now in Christ I realise unworthy as I am God bids me to come unto him. Not because of anything I have done or can do but becasue of what Christ has already done on my behalf. Whereas years ago I searched for something I could do to impress God so much that he would throw heaven's gate open and welcome me in, I now realise there is absolutely nothing that I could do to impress God, but Christ has won God's merit, favour, approval,satisfaction etc that now I rest upon what Christ has done. Two verses: Mt 1.21 "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." The angel did not say Jesus could or might or would make it possible to be saved but that 'he will save his people' Could Jesus be trusted to save me? Is Jesus reliable? Is it what he does or what I do? Does Jesus do what he says? Does Jesus accomplish what he sets out to do? Jn 1.129: The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" Does that mean everyone else's sin but mine? Does Jesus actually take it away or just hide it and put it back later? If it has been taken away then why do I think it will damn me in the end? As I reflected on these verse I realised Christ is trustworthy, totally reliable, true to his word, effective. I realised my sin has been dealt with once and for all and out of the gratitude that comes from a forgiven sinner seek to live for him day by day. I realise two things. Col 2.9-10: For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete I am complete in him. There is nothing I lack (but still have a lot to learn) There is nothing I am deficient in (but still have a lot of sanctification to go through) There are no further experiences or secret knowledge to obtain or further scriptures to supplement the bible. I am complete in Christ. Secondly a quote from Richard Steele: "The sacrifice of a broken heart doth please him, but the sacrifice of a broken Christ alone doth satisfy him"

4/19/2009 3:56:50 PM by ParaHandy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

God_Lover, I will answer your questions even though you have alreay answered them inside the questions. 1. God is able to forgive Adam and his sons without making himself to live with his own creations God has always lived with man. He told Adam not to eat from the tree, but Adam disobeyed Him. Afterward, God slaughtered an animal to provide covering for Adam and Eve's nakedness. This was the first animal to be slaughtered on earth. The concept was that the sin of the man was transferred to the animal and the animal was slain instead of the man. Believe me, God thought this through before Adam was formed. 2. When Jesus was killed as claimed and was barred for three days, who was taking care of the universe while he was underground died? Jesus was killed and buried in a tomb, not underground. And it was God's power that took care of the universe while Jesus was busy. God's power is still holding the sun in place today. He said, "Let there be..." and there was. It never stop being. 3. Why should God sacrifice his own son just for the sake of forgiving his servants, does that mean that God servants are more valuable to God from his own son? God wanted more than one Son. Jesus was the seed for the harvest. He died so that we could all be given the opportunity to become sons of God. God does not value us more than His Son, but the same as His Son.

4/19/2009 5:14:28 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Bless you ParaHandy, thanks for sharing and very well said!

4/19/2009 6:07:52 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_lover, I must say that I have a lot of respect for the Muslim people. You have to go through a lot and do a lot for your faith. I commend your commitment. I lived and worked for a time in the UAE and got to know and respect the people who live there a lot. I've always found them to be very friendly and courteous. The thing that always strike me about Muslims and Buddhists and many other faiths is the fact that, despite all they have to do for their faith and all the effort they put in to do the good deeds and to keep the law, they still are not assured of the fact that they will go to paradise. That is ultimately what it is about, is it not? We all want to go to heaven or paradise (call it what you will) when we die. When we lie on our death bed one day, that will be the prime question in our minds......if I die now, will I go to eternal peace or eternal suffering? That is the ultimate question. For me personally the thought of not knowing where I am going is frightening. I am going to be dead a lot longer than I was alive and I want to be certain what happens to me when I die. Thankfully as a Christian I KNOW where I am going when I die and it has nothing to do with my good works. All I have to do to go to paradise is to believe that Jesus is God and that He became a human and died for me on the cross to take away my sin, and rose again on the third day. That is it! Nothing more! If I believe that, I am assured of everlasting life in paradise! I will never be able to do enough good deeds to impress God, but I don't have to! It makes sense if you thing logically about it. If God is kind and loving and merciful and wants all of us to go to paradise, it makes sense that He made it very easy to be saved. He has! As humans we have the tendency to over complicate things where in reality it is very simple. The question to you is, do you want to take the easy way or the hard way?

4/19/2009 6:41:41 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Mrspiggy, 1. I do not get the answer of the first question; what is the relation between the animal and the ability of God to forgive Adam and with Jesus sent to earth to forgive people. If the sin of mankind was transferred into animals, what is the need of Jesus as son of God to be sent to earth? 2. for the second answer, does that mean that Jesus and God both are having the power to control the universe at the same time? Then if Jesus disagrees with the father then people will experience instability in the universe then the whole universe will collapse. 3. You said that God wanted more than one son, But why God need sons he is the most powerful and he needs no one. see what is mentioned in the Holy Quran about Adam sin; 7:22 He thus duped them with lies. As soon as they tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them, and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise. Their Lord called upon them: "Did I not enjoin you from that tree, and warn you that the devil is your most ardent enemy?" 7:23 They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged our souls, and unless You forgive us and have mercy on us, we will be losers." 7:24 He said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile." 7:25 He said, "On it you will live, on it you will die, and from it you will be brought out."

4/20/2009 1:15:20 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Chrisv, You are right, God is most kind and loving and merciful but does that mean that if you believe that Jesus is God and that He became a human and died for you on the cross to take away your sin, then you can commit whatever crime you can do because your place in paradise is already dedicated for you. Please know that God is most kind and in the same time he is the fairest judge, therefore what is the point of making the Day of Judgment? All people whether they are Muslims, Christians or whatever realigns they follow, they will be judged in the Day of Judgment, because God give them a brain to distinguish between the right and the wrong. If someone believes that he surely will go to paradise, it is very easy for him to commit a sin or a crime which will create society of crime. And I believe that God wants to create a peaceful society not a criminal society. Yes, it is frightening to not be certain about your destiny in the life after. This is why you have to work hard on earth to deserve God reward (Paradise). And see what is mentioned in the Holy Quran about the Day of Judgment: 2:160 As for those who repent, reform, and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, Most Merciful. 2:161 Those who disbelieve and die as disbelievers, have incurred the condemnation of GOD, the angels, and all the people (on the Day of Judgment). 2:162 Eternally they abide therein. The retribution is never commuted for them, nor are they reprieved. 2:163 Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful 4:13 These are GOD's laws. Those who obey GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever. This is the greatest triumph. 4:14 As for the one who disobeys GOD and His messenger, and transgresses His laws, He will admit him into Hell, wherein he abides forever. He has incurred a shameful retribution. 2:113 The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.

4/20/2009 2:27:38 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

1. I do not get the answer of the first question; what is the relation between the animal and the ability of God to forgive Adam and with Jesus sent to earth to forgive people. If the sin of mankind was transferred into animals, what is the need of Jesus as son of God to be sent to earth? I guess you have not read the Bible concerning the sacrafices needed to be offered for sins in the Old Testament. (Genisis 22:7 & Exodus 12:8, etc) Jesus is called "The Lamb of God" 2. for the second answer, does that mean that Jesus and God both are having the power to control the universe at the same time? Then if Jesus disagrees with the father then people will experience instability in the universe then the whole universe will collapse. Jesus IS God. They would never disagree. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father do." 3. You said that God wanted more than one son, But why God need sons he is the most powerful and he needs no one. You are right. God is most powerful and needs no one. I did not say He needed sons, but He wanted sons. And He decided how He would have them. You must think of Christainity as a religion. It's not. It's a relationship. He is the Father and we are the children. He is not God up in heaven. He is Father with us here on earth. The Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts. He shows His love for us by keeping His promises to us and we show our love for Him by being obedient to his commands. His commands are to love Him with all our heart, soul and mind and to love others as we love ourselves. The goal of Christainity is not heaven. It is to do His will on earth. Jesus came to earth to show us how we are to be. He came as "God in the flesh" to be the example of how we are to treat each other and relate to the Father. Jesus is the Word of God. In the Old Testament God used His prophets to tell the people how to be and What He would do should they obey or disobey. But people didn't quite get it. You ever hear people say, "I can show you better than I can tell you"? Therein lies Jesus, the Word of God. So, when God wants something done on the earth, He has sons to get the job done. Everything is done through God, the Holy Spirit in us. When our jobs on earth are done, our bodies go back to the earth and our spirits go to Him. Heaven is not a place. It is a state of being. Anytime we are in His will, we experience heaven. Actually, even Christians get confused in thinking they are going to a place called heaven. Jesus never said that. He said, "In my Father's house there are many mansions. If it were not true, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, so that where I am, you may be also." (John 14:2-4) Being one with Jesus is heaven/paradise.

4/20/2009 11:35:57 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrspiggy, You are right, I did not read that part of the Bible, but I still confused about the sacrifice of Jesus. Let me summarize what I understand so far, 1. The sins of Adam and his sons was transferred to animals and no more belongs to Adam. 2. Jesus was send to earth as son of God to sacrifice himself just for that sake of forgiving the sins of Adams and his sons; while these sins were transferred to animals. Then what is the point? 3. God sent prophets to show people how to live but it did not work (however he knows that it will not work), then he decided to send his own son to show people the right way of living. However God promised in his books to send another prophet; does that mean it will work now? 4. I got confused totally about the God is one and the same time is three? Do not fit to my logic. Have you ever read the Quran to see the difference between the Quran and the Bible? In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful 112:1 Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. 112:2 "The Absolute GOD. 112:3 "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. 112:4 "None equals Him."

4/20/2009 3:40:40 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

God_lover, I think you've touched the main point where Christianity differs from Islam. Please understand that this is just my view point and you are welcome to disagree, I do not mean to be insulting to Muslins. The difference is in the motivation we have to serve God. Muslims serve God out of fear and Christians serve God out of love. Let me explain, In your previous posting you agreed that the thought of not going to paradise after you die is a scary thought and hence the reason you do your best to do good works so you can earn your place in paradise. I am right here, yes? So the motivation is fear of not going to paradise, right? As Christians, we know that we are going to paradise, so we do not have that fear. We are deeply grateful to our Father for showing us mercy and loving us so much that He sent His Son Jesus to die for us on the cross and through that make a way for us to come into relationship with Him. We are deeply in love with Him and understand how hard it must have been for Him to allow Jesus to be humiliated and killed for our sake. Therefore, the thought of hurting Him by abusing that mercy He has shown us by continuing to sin is unthinkable, hence our motivation is love. I agree with Mrspiggy, Christianity is all about relationship with our God, nothing else is more important.

4/20/2009 6:33:12 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_Lover, 1. The sins of Adam and his sons was transferred to animals and no more belongs to Adam But, sin had entered the human race because of Adam's disobedience to God. Thus, his sons as well as everybody else was born into sin. 2. Jesus was send to earth as son of God to sacrifice himself just for that sake of forgiving the sins of Adams and his sons; while these sins were transferred to animals. Then what is the point? Not for his sons, just Adam. At the time the sons were not yet born. Yet Adam was cursed as were all humans because of his disobedience. So, his sons were born under the curse of sin as we all were. 3. God sent prophets to show people how to live but it did not work (however he knows that it will not work), then he decided to send his own son to show people the right way of living. However God promised in his books to send another prophet; does that mean it will work now? No. There was no, "then". The Bible says the Lamb of God was sacraficed before the foundation of the earth. This was not a step-by-step trial and error procedure. God is All Knowing. He prepared the end at the begining. Prophets after Jesus? I would say, Paul. For Paul, though referred to as Apostle, was a prophet who wrote most of the New Testament, instructing Christians on how to continue to live according to Jesus' teachings. 4. I got confused totally about the God is one and the same time is three? Do not fit to my logic. I totally understand. Faith has nothing to do with logic. As a child, I believed in Santa. It didn't make sense that a fat man dressed in red brought me gifts every year. We didn't have a fireplace with chimney for him to enter, but I still believed because of the manifestation (gifts) And Santa offered "condtional" love. There was a song that one line has always stuck out in my mind: "Be good for goodness sake." But as a child, I was good for "giftness" sake. Christains, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, are suppose to believe in Jesus and have the faith of a child in Him. Our faith IN God is also the faith OF God. Faith is a gift from God to all believers. Logic is the nemesis of faith.

4/20/2009 7:19:38 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrspiggy, I believe God is the most fair and he will not curse me because my father disobedience to God. I know that God is all knowing, but I see a conflict between your stories. God is most fair. he does not blame you for somebody sin because you do not have any hand on it. and the sin of Adam caused to curse all his sons for what? For being his sons? I meant by other prophet is the prophet Mohammad: (see the below article I found in a website) BLESSINGS OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in Gods covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question; 1. Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of Gods promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him. 2. Genesis 17:4 reiterates Gods promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac. 3. In Genesis, ch. 21, Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become a great nation especially in Genesis 21:13, 18. 4. According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a free women such as Sarah, Isaacs mother, or a Bondwoman such as Hagar, Ishmaels mother). This is only consistent with the moral humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths. 5. The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abrahams son and seed and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abrahams wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that Gods promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. Gods blessing of both of the main branches of Abrahams family tree was now fulfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad? MUHAMMAD: The Prophet Like Unto Moses Long time after Abraham, Gods promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses words. In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is: 1. From among the Israelites brethren a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a great nation. 2. A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not Jesus, was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims belief Jesus was).

4/22/2009 1:26:17 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Chrisv, When I said it is frightening to not be certain to go to Paradise, I was commenting on your statement only. To clarify more, we as Muslims we are requested to balance between fair of God punishment and willing of God mercy or love of God. Letting fair only to be your motivation will let you despairs of GOD's grace. And letting willing of God mercy only to be your motivation will let you relax and get things easy to workshop God and not obey God orders. To show you an example how to balance between fair and love, if you look at you country, for instance, you love your country because it offers you protection and it is your home, you are also afraid to commit a crime because there will be a punishment for you. We love God so much; we pray for God five times a day to be connected to God and to remember that there is a great God takes care of us and to thank God for his blessings. If you notice my nickname is God_Lover. I hope I made it clear for you.

4/22/2009 2:09:40 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Tell me God_lover, What happens if a Muslim refuse to pray 5 times a day?

4/22/2009 5:12:06 AM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_Lover, I have read Genesis 21:13 and God indeed says he will make Ishmael a great nation. But, later in Genesis 22, God refers to Issac as Abraham's only son. And it is through Issac that the "blessing" is promised. The "blessing" is Jesus. Ishmael and Issac's descendants have been intermarried as when Issac's son, Esau, married one of Ishmael's daughters. Esau and Jacob were twins. But, since the promised blessing comes through Issac's lineage, I have put no focus on Ishmael's lineage.

4/22/2009 11:44:49 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi God-Lover, I appreciate your love for God and devotion to the Qur'an. I have heard Christians cite passages from the Qur'an to indicate how Jesus is uniquely special among all of Islam's prophets. I have never heard the Muslim response to these claims of Christians. If you have the time and the inclination to research these passages, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts about our Christian claims regarding the witness of the Qur'an as to who Jesus is. I hope I got all of the Surah references correct, but if I have accidentally misquoted any, I would be happy to clarify the reference. The Qur'an makes the following statements about Jesus: 1. Jesus was born of a virgin (3:45-47; 19:16-22) 2. Jesus was the son of the most exalted woman (3:42) Christians would add this is because she was the mother of the most important man who ever lived. 3. Jesus is sinless (19:19 and in Sahih Muslim, Volume 4, page 1261). The sins of other Islamic prophets are recorded in sins of Adam (7:23), Abraham (26:82), Moses (28:16), Johan (37:142), and Muhammad (47:19, 48:2). 4. Jesus ascended to heaven to be at the right hand of God (4:158) 5. Jesus will come again (19:30-35; 43:61) 6. Jesus is the Messiah (3;45; 4:156, 169, 170; 5:17, 76, 79; 9:30) 7. Jesus is the Word of God - the only human being ever mentioned in the Qur'an who is called a Word from God. (4:171, Jesus is called, "His Word."; 3:45) 8. Jesus is a Spirit proceeding from God (4:171) All of these statements are thoughts Christians would agree with and would also cite several additional references from our Bible to substantiate and elaborate on these statements. If you agree these passages from your Qur'an indicate that Jesus is an uniquely important prophet, you may benefit from reading other words about Jesus as well as those words Christians attribute directly to Jesus. I know the Qur'an states that the Christian scriptures have become corrupt with errors, but if you want to learn more about one of the most significant prophets of Islam, perhaps God would guide you in knowing which selections are edifying. I know that many Muslim scholars through the ages have studied the Gospel to learn more about Jesus.

4/22/2009 12:28:19 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

God_Lover, I wanted to share these scriptures with you: Colossians 1:15-16 "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth." (19) "For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ (20) and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and earth by means of his blood on the cross."

4/22/2009 6:17:48 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Chrisv, To be clear with you, In Islam we have five deeds called the five pillars of Islam which are testimony that God is one and the Mohammed is his messenger, Performing Prayers, Paying Charity to who in need, fasting of month of Ramadan, pilgrimage to the Holly mosque which was built by the prophet Abraham. These five deeds are basics and mandatory for Muslims. So the prayer is one of these five pillars and, in fact, it is one of the most important deeds in Muslim life. Otherwise, you will get busy and forget God blessings and get lost in the daily life duties. The prayer is one of most tools, if you like, that remove the stress from your daily life. You can pray more than five times if you wish and it takes no time. This is why we pray five times a day. Going back to your question, Chrisv, if a Muslim refuse to pray the five prayers, he has the chance to go back to God and ask for forgiveness till the day he die. But if he did not ask for forgiveness then, God will judge him in the Day of Judgment and God will decide where to go.

4/23/2009 2:58:07 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Mrspiggy, Then how come you find in the Bible two contradictory information; you said that you find in Genesis 21:13 that God says he will make Ishmael a great nation. But, later in Genesis 22, God refers to Issac as Abraham's only son. So could you please tell me which one is correct? See what God says in the Holly Quran: 2:127 As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient. 2:128 "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful. 2:129 "Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." 2:130 Who would forsake the religion of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. And if God promises Ismail to have a great nation, then It must be from his sons not daughters, and the prophet Mohammad was the only son of Ismail who was send as prophet.

4/23/2009 3:25:16 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Both are correct.

4/23/2009 3:42:33 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Rayan, I went through all verses of the Holly Quran you mentioned but I have comments on these points you raised: 1. True 2. True, but what Christians believe is different from what God says in the Holly Quran. Marry was not exalted because she is a mother of Jesus, but she is exalted because of her religiousness. 3:35 The wife of Amram said, "My Lord, I have dedicated (the baby) in my belly to You, totally, so accept from me. You are Hearer, Omniscient." 3:36 When she gave birth to her, she said, "My Lord, I have given birth to a girl" - GOD was fully aware of what she bore - "The male is not the same as the female. I have named her Mary, and I invoke Your protection for her and her descendants from the rejected devil." 3:37 Her Lord accepted her a gracious acceptance, and brought her up a gracious upbringing, under the guardianship of Zachariah. Whenever Zachariah entered her sanctuary he found provisions with her. He would ask, "Mary, where did you get this from?" She would say, "It is from GOD. GOD provides for whomever He chooses, without limits. 3. In Islam all prophets are sinless including Jesus. But what you referring to is totally different. Please see the verses from 19:17 to 19:23 19:17 While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being. 19:18 She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous." 19:19 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." 19:20 She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste." 19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' " 19:22 When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place. 19:23 The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed;) I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten." 4. if you go back one verse before 4:158 you will understand the meaning of this verse, sometimes you have to understand the context to get to the meaning. Please see the verses from 4:157 to 4:158 4:157 And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. 4:158 Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. 5. see what in these verses 19-30 to 19:35 19:30 (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. 19:31 "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live. 19:32 "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel. 19:33 And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected." 19:34 That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt. 19:35 It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is. 6. true, in the Quran Jesus is the Messiah but it does not mean he the son of God 7. True, Jesus is the word of God; because he was created from no father. The word is He simply says to it, Be,' and it is. 8. See the verse 4:171 4:171 O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master. I think it is clear that Jesus was sent as prophet like him like other prophets nothing special about him except that his was born from no father as Adam was born from no father or mother. Sorry for long writing but I had to, to make it more obvious.

4/23/2009 4:21:51 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Exactly my point God_lover. How can you do something out of love if you are forced to do it? Please understand me, I am not questioning your love for Allah. It is obvious that you are very dedicated and you believe that you love Allah very much. My previous statement still stands, I believe that the Islam faith is built on fear. The fact that you have to follow the five pillars to get into paradise and if you do not follow them you will be condemned is proof of that. You can try and justify the five pillars anyway you want, but the fact remains....If you force someone to do something with the threat that they will be punished if they do not, they will do it out of fear not out of love. Again I state the main difference between Islam and Christianity is the motivation we have. That aside, I have another question if you would be willing to indulge me: You believe the Qur'an to be the final revelation of God, right? Why? What proof do you have that the Qur'an is actually divinely inspired and not just made up by man?

4/23/2009 6:21:33 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Good Morning God_Lover, Thanks for replying to my post; I enjoyed reading your points! It's nice to find we agree on a few issues. I have benefited from reading a bit of the Qur'an, because I believe it does give a testimony of Jesus being greater than the prophets - contrary to your own beliefs. I have a few more comments on the earlier 8 points: 1. I am glad we have agreement! 2. Some accord exists, but I still have questions. Is it true that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the only woman mentioned by name in the entirety of the Qur'an? I have not read much of the Qur'an, so I'm not sure but, I have heard that Mohammad's mother is not identified nor is Khadijah or Fatima. Surely, there are many righteous women who could have been memorialized in the Qur'an. Mary was chosen by God because of righteousness but, Mary is a big player (only leading lady?) in the Qur'an - because of who her Son is. The Qur'an discusses Jesus, but gives no details on the righteousness of Mary. 3. Speaking of Jesus, Surah 19:19 reads, "I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son". I am told that the word translated for faultless (or pure) is not attributed to any other person in the Qur'an, not even Mohammad. Is that true? It may not be a good idea to touch the topic of the sin of the prophets within this cordial conversation. However, was Muhammad told to ask forgiveness for his sins in 47:19 and 48:2? Also, who is the us in 19:21 (He said, "Thus said your Lord, It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.")? Us is not a plural reference to God is it? 4. We agree that God raised Jesus to Him in Heaven (4:158 "GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."). His death is another matter. Christians believe Jesus ascended to Heaven because He came from Heaven, as implied by His virgin-birth. 5. Various Muslim teachings promote the return of Jesus to Earth in Hadiths such as Sahih Muslim (Vol 1, pg. 93), Sahih al-Bukhari (Vol 4, pg. 137), Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir (Vol 1, pg. 47). Will Muhammad make a come back? 6. Messiah means Savior and is interchangeable with the term Son of God; this word was used in the Torah, centuries before the Quran was written. Over 300 Old Testament prophecies speak of the coming Messiah, the New Testament is all about the Messiah. What does Messiah mean in the Quran? It is intriguing that the Qur'an preserves and upholds this exact title of Jesus in eleven references - which supports the Bible's claim that Jesus is the Messiah. The title of Messiah in both the Qur'an and the Bible does make Jesus special! 7. We agree that Jesus is the Word of God - we'd disagree on "Be". No other person is called the Word of God in the Qur'an. Adam had no parents - God caused him to be - but, Adam is not called the Word of God in the Qur'an. Christians can be glad that the Qur'an preserves the title Word of God - the Bible does also and expounds on the significance of that title. 8. A few times, during different posts, you've mentioned 4:171, but you used a translation that omits Spirit from Him. I am told that the original text uses the word wa-ruhun-minhu which translates to a spirit from him. And ruh-minhu which is translated Word of God. So, I'll quote the version of Surah 4:171 whichI've read: O People of the Book (the Jews and the Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against God, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is only a messenger of God and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit from Him; believe therefore in God and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Indeed God is only one diety; far be it from His glory that He should have a son, To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, and God is All -Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. The text of the Qur'an clearly refutes the deity of Jesus - and this would be the focus of the Muslim reader of this verse. However, the casual reader of the Christian persuasion could not help noticing the tantalizing irony that the titles the Qur'an bestows on Jesus - the exact titles stated in the Bible - identify Jesus as God! To Christians, Messiah, Word of God and Spirit from God are conclusive terms describing Jesus as God. Whose idea was it to preserve these descriptive titles in the Qur'an? Interestingly enough, the word "Trinity" does not exist within the Bible but does in the Qur'an. The word was devised by Christians to describe the nature of God. Therefore, it is not necessary for Christians to use the word "Trinity" to describe the triune nature of God while also believing, at the same time, there is only one God. Most Christians could not entertain an attempt to refute the concept of the Trinity if it were not precluded by an accurate understanding of the concept. However, this verse, by using the tiles Messiah, Word of God and Spirit of God actually lends credence to the depiction of the Trinity - even while the author attempts to discredit the concept. Looking at he words of the Qur'an, I see many ways in which Jesus stands above all prophets of Islam. I wish I had known what the Qur'an says about Jesus years ago, during a time when I had many doubts, since in some important ways the Qur'an adds support to who the Bible says Jesus is.

4/24/2009 7:31:01 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Thank you, Ryan.

4/24/2009 8:48:58 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Chrisv, Sorry for late reply, I was so busy last three days. Here is the reply: Still I do not agree with you that our faith is based on fair, may be this is my problem I cannot deliver it clearly. But, I want you to understand that example I gave you, why you are good citizen is it because you are afraid of punishment or is it because you love you country. If I go back to the prayer, the purpose of the fair is to force people to follow the right bath and start performing the prayer while the purpose of the love of God is to achieve the exalting purpose and to be connected to God emotionally and to empower you love to God so that you will enjoy both lives. On the other hand, if the love only is the motivation. Then we will have people who do not pray at all and at the end of the day they will get lost. See, for instance, Christian society how many people go to church and therefore how many people are truly love God. I believe these numbers are going down. Even you find mostly old people only going to church while youth are sinking in this life and forgetting God totally. Sorry for that, but what I see when I go to western countries and what I see on TV. Regarding your request, I will put it in another contribution.

4/27/2009 2:22:51 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Rayan, sorry for late reply, But you can not take something form the Quran and leave the rest. Anyway I will come back soon to reply to your posts since it need long and detailed reply.however I am not a scholar in Islam but I will try my best. thanks

4/27/2009 2:34:56 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

I just read this and wanted to share: Don't let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world and not from Christ. For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body, and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe. Colossians 2:5-10

4/27/2009 9:36:58 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Sorry gents, I could not post for long period because I was so busy with my job. Anyway, I would start to reply to Chris. Here I attached a link for a website that has the proof that the Quran is the final revelation of God and that the Quran is actually divinely inspired and not just made up by man. ww.islamhouse.com/files/en/ih_articles/en_SacredScripturemustbefromAllah.doc

5/2/2009 2:23:36 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

I am sorry God_lover, I seem to be missing something. The link you gave in your previous posting points to a Word document that states that the reason why the Quran is divinely inspired is because it has been preserved in detail. That to me is no reason at all to believe it is the word of God. It only means that a lot of care has been taken over the years to preserve the integrity of the Quran. Make no mistake, I firmly believe that the Quran you read today is exactly the same as the original. I have no doubt that the utmost care has been taken over the years to preserve the integrity of the Quran. In my mind, what qualifies a book to be considered of divine origin? 1. It must be a book of truth 2. It must have a supernatural aspect to it. The Bible qualifies because: 1. Historically the Bible has CONSISTENTLY been proven accurate by non-Christian Archaeologists. Numerous archaeological findings support the places and events that are mentioned in the Bible. 2. Over 300 DETAILLED prophecies in the Bible has come to pass. I am not talking about vague prophecies that can be interpreted but, detailed prophecies that cannot be disputed. Can the Quran make the same claim?

5/2/2009 8:39:06 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Chrisv, Preservation of the Holly Quran does not mean that it was preserved by the taken care only but also it is a challenge for those who attempt to corrupt the Holly book. anyway you can check this website and I hope you will get satisfied. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index.php

5/3/2009 9:16:27 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

God_lover, I have been thinking of you... Here are some thoughts I'd like to share with you. The Qur'an and the Bible are so totally different. (One can only be true.) The god (and Jesus) of the Qur'an, is not the same God (and Jesus) of the Bible. The God of the Bible had a Son, Jesus. The god of the Qur'an did not have a Son. The Qur'an denies Christ's deity. The Bible professes Christ's deity. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 The Bible tells us that Jesus is God, that He died on a cross, and that He rose from the dead. The Qur'an denies all of this. The Jesus of the Bible is the only way to get into heaven. Not by good works, and definitely not by being violent against those who won't embrace Christianity. The Qur'an teaches a person to do all of the rituals of Islam, and only HOPE to be allowed in Paradise. The Qur'an teaches that they will be allowed into Paradise by killing and being killed in jihad, a holy war. In the Bible there is atonement, forgiveness of sins, a Savior, and assurance of eternal life. In Islam, there is none of these. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a message of love, and of relationship (now and forever with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) and a message of hope! Islam is a religion and a message of hopelessness. (even violence.) God sent His Son Jesus (who never sinned, and who was perfect) to earth to die on a cross for our sins, in our place. Because we humans all sin, we need a Savior. He did this so we can have eternal life and be with Him forever! "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The Bible teaches us that "GOD IS LOVE." Jesus taught that we should love not only those who love us, but love our enemies also. Islam's founder, Muhammad was violent. (Why would God send a prophet like him?)

5/4/2009 9:56:10 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

God_lover Let's examine the difference in prophecies in the Bible and the Quran, shall we? Quran prophecies: And horses, mules, and donkeys both to ride and for adornment. And He creates other things you do not know. (Qur'an, 16:8) Presumably a prophecy about modern transport? I will let people who read this make up their own minds if this is specific or not. And We made a fount of molten copper flow out for him. (Qur'an, 34:12) Presumably prophesying electricity? Again I will let people make up their own minds. Now let us look a the Bible: (1) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfilment of this prophecy in the birth of Jesus Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history. (Probability of chance fulfilment = 1 in 1000000.) (2) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slavethirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," usedjust as predictedfor the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10). (Probability of chance fulfilment = 1 in 1000000000000.) Let me throw another pebble in the pond....remember waaaaaay back in one if the first postings I made I talked about the miracles I've witnessed and you responded by saying those people who where healed probably believed in Jesus to start with and it was more a case of "mind over matter"? Most of those people who where healed where Muslims. None of them are Muslims anymore, they are all Christians now. Just one encounter with the power and love of Jesus made them realise that they where serving the wrong god.

5/4/2009 6:26:23 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

IgnitedFaith, With my respect to Christianity and Bible as the book of God was sent with his prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). This book was corrupted throughout ages and I challenge you to prove the opposite. Can you explain to me why you as Christians have many different copies of Bible? Regarding Islam is religion of violent or the Quran is the book of violent. Can you support your saying by some verses from the Holly Quran that encourage violent? I would ask you not to call Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) as a man of violent; I love this man so much even more than my own parents. If you will say such things about him I will not consider your post and will ignore your contribution.

5/9/2009 2:26:37 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

The original Greek text has been preserved faithfully. It's the English version which keeps changing to keep pace with changes in the way we use the English language, and as we get better and understanding and translating Ancient Greek. The original itself never changes, and if one can read Ancient Greek fluently, then the exact words that Paul, Peter and the others wrote can still be read today.

5/9/2009 8:40:40 AM by addison-x, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/29/2007

Truth stands on its' own. There is no need to defend it. The Word of God is true, whether written in Greek, English or French. Every version of the Bible states: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself. This is the foundational principle and the way to a successful life. It is the main key to the kingdom of God, which is where every believer desires to be. Every version teaches the principle of forgiveness. Forgive others as God, through Christ, has forgiven us. Do NOT be offended, forgive and love. By this, will all know that you are mine says the LORD.

5/9/2009 10:14:50 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

God_lover, I do not think you are being quite fair with Ignited_faith by stating that you will ignore her post if she insults Mohammed. You must remember that for you to come onto a Christian forum and state that Jesus is not the Son of God and that the Bible is false, is probably the biggest insult you can give to a Christian. As Christians we have every right to be insulted but we did not ignore your postings or react in a negative way as we would like for you to see the truth in love. Despite all the evidence we have given you about the validity of the Bible, you still do not want to accept the truth. You tend to ignore the our statements that you cannot explain or makes you uncomfortable (It is glaringly obvious by your failure to respond to Ryan's last post as well as my last post). Every time you are backed into a corner you fall back on your belief that the Bible is corrupt and by that you explain away everything that makes you uncomfortable. Let me ask you a question, if you would be willing to answer honestly.........Why did you join this discussion in the first place? Was it because you are starting to wonder about your own faith or was it to try and persuade us that your faith it the correct one?

5/10/2009 7:20:36 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Hi Chrisv, I always enjoy reading your posts; you've raised some intriguing points - they've made me re-think my positions. I agree claims that Jesus is not the Son of God and that the Bible is corrupt are slamming Christians sensitivities in the same way stating that Mohammed was violent and the Quran is bogus is insulting to Muslims. But, do Christians have a right to be offended? How are we, as Christians, required to react to offenses? Perhaps there is danger in both not being offended and reacting with defense to the offense. Two scriptures come to mind: 1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. People all around us, especially many who have some connection to a Christian cultural heritage are asserting that Jesus is not God and the Bible is whack. When we try to talk about God's love they often cite Biblical references to denounce Christianity as violent and then they jump to the naming of love-deficient Christians. Whether we're conversing with a devout Muslim or the guy next door, who says he grew up in the Church until old enough to rebel against the hypocrisy, we have to come to terms with the prevailing animosity and unawareness. After all, you and I have much in common with those who reject Jesus and the Bible. Until God calls us, we are all actively or passively rejecting God and His Word. I think God_lover is brave for single-handedly debating Christians on a Christian web-site. I assume she is doing so because she would like us to know of the same love she feels for God. I would hope she would gain an understanding of how we love God by how we express His love through words which gently address her views. I support God_lover's right to not respond to anything she finds offensive, or uninteresting - that may be a useful mirror for us check out our performance. Personally, what I hope to gain from participating in this type of discussion is to learn to boldly stand for the truth while expressing my beliefs with the type of gentleness and respect I think Peter had in mind. That is not an easy task for me, but settling for failure is not an option.

5/11/2009 3:04:35 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hi God_lover, I appreciate your courage, strong convictions and willingness to discuss who God is with us! I was fascinated with the web-site you referenced! Many questions came to mind as I read verses from the Qur'an. Foremost, I was struck by the number of verses in which God is speaking while identifying Himself with the plural pronoun "We". How does Islam explain God referring to Himself as "We" in the Qur'an? I was even more amazed by another site which was prominently advertised and sponsored by the site you directed us to visit! I don't want to identify that site, because I think links to other sites are discouraged by DIJ administrators. However, what astonished me was that this Islamic site was dedicated to the second coming of Jesus to unite and rule the world with righteousness! The topic headings displayed at this site use the word Isa(as) - the Arabic word for Jesus, but the text of each article consistently uses the English word Jesus. Here are some of the exact titles of articles featured on this web-site: The Superior Moral Values of the Prophet Isa(as) Evidence from the Quran Regarding the Second Coming of the Prophet Isa(as) How Can We Recognize the Prophet Isa(as) Troubled Communities Beg for a Savior Welcoming the Prophet Isa(as) in the Finest Manner The Entire World will Unite Around the Prophet Isa(as) This web-site makes it clear that devout Muslims should be awaiting the return and rule of Jesus. I'm wondering if you pray to God to help you recognize and respond to Jesus?

5/11/2009 3:12:11 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I appreciate your sensitivity, but under the circumstances, it would be more than fine. Please feel free to post the link - I have no qualms whatsoever.

5/11/2009 3:19:06 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thanks Michael, I encourage all Christians who love their Muslim friends and neighbors to explore an Islamic site which is dedicated to the to the second coming of Jesus and His mission to unite and rule the world with righteousness! Awaited Mahdi.com Sorry I'm having trouble pasting hyperlinks - but, I don't think you'd have any problem searching for the site. Once there scroll down about a quarter of the page and you'll find links to all of the articles. I'd be interested in the opinions of others regarding this content.

5/11/2009 3:37:20 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

You are absolutely correct Ryan, We as Christians do not have the right to be offended, after all the pain and suffering we caused Jesus on the cross. Yet, Jesus Himself said that offences will happen in Lk 17:1. To expect from Christians never to be offended is to lay too much of a heavy burden on them. It is human to be offended, we all get offended at one stage or another. It is what we do with the offence that matters. If we nurture that offence and allow it to grow into unforgiveness...well, then we are risking the path of offence that is not dealt with....Offence leads to unforgiveness......unforgivness leads to bitterness.....bitterness leads to anger......anger leads to hatred and hatred leads to murder. The best thing to do with a offence is to let it go as quickly as possible. As far as my posting to God_lover is concerned, I totally agree that we must always be prepared to give an answer, but to talk in circles results in useless arguments. Then Mrspiggy's quote of Colossians 2:8 comes into play. If God_lover would be willing to respond to all our postings so the conversation can progress, I would be delighted to continue the conversation.

5/11/2009 6:26:26 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

God_lover, I didn't mean to upset you with my last post. I love Jesus, and I trust that He cannot lie. I love you enough to share the truth of God's Word. God_lover, you mentioned that 'the Bible was corrupted throughout ages.' The Bible says this: "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Peter 1:24-25 Here is a little video you can watch which can explain things better. (There are 149 verses in the Qur'an concerning violence.) Be sure to turn up your volume, so you can hear the message! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkYEshMFb9M

5/11/2009 11:04:28 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Ladies and Gents, Sorry for not replying to your post as I was on top of my job and I was having limited access to the internet due to the nature of my job . The English in not my mother tongue and sometimes I need to use a dictionary to translate some words before I respond to any post. This is another limitation prevents my respond to all of you. In addition, I am not a scholar in Islam but I am normal Muslim, therefore I do not know much about Christianity and Bible. I came to this forum to enrich my knowledge about your religion and what you believe but I found that you are not convinced totally by Christianity and therefore I tried to show you my own faith which I am convinced that it is the true religion of God. Anyway, I will try to respond to some of your posts, but I want you to understand that I am one facing many. Do not expect me to reply to all of you and forgive me for that. And again I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Rayan, In the Holly Quran when God says we, this special word in Arabic language as does not mean plural all the time but it means the glories of the speaker, for example when a king talk he says we commanded so and so not I commanded so and so, I hope I made clear for you. Yes, we believe that Jesus will come again to life but he will come for a purpose to correct your believe as Christians and to ask you to believe on the One God only but not believe that He is God Chrisv, I sent you the website about miracle of the Holly Quran and it seems you did not bother yourself to read it completely. Anyway I will advise you to compare between Islam and Christianity and then make a judgment accordingly. Ignaited_faith, I want you to know that I love Jesus and I respect him and I cannot be a Muslim unless I love Jesus and believe on Bible. But my faith on him is different. Thanks to all of you and what you gave me from your time

5/13/2009 3:55:46 PM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Hi God_lover, Good to see you here again! I'm trying to understand what you wrote. When you say that you 'believe on the Bible' do you mean you believe on the 'Qur'an?' May I also ask, what do you think of when you hear that Jesus died on the cross? (Thank you for sharing what you believe.)

5/13/2009 5:23:17 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

God_lover, Thanks for the reply - I appreciate your valuable time and enduring effort given to this matter! I have benefited greatly from learning more about Islam and feel better prepared to engage in dialogue with Muslim friends. I thank you for rousing this interest! Muslims and Christians have some common ground on which to base amiable discussions about God. I was happy to learn that Muslims, like Christians, believe Jesus will return to rule all nations at the end of this age! We can come together in prayer to God, asking for His assistance to recognize the truth about Jesus, be obedient to His rule and celebrate the coming Holy Kingdom! I understand that Muslims hold fast to what the Qur'an teaches about the corruption of the Bible, and about Jesus not being God. Christians believe no person can accept Jesus as God and the Bible as His Word unless called by God to do so. Therefore, I don't think we can be surprised that Muslims disagree with us when we quote the Bible to you. Muslims reject the deity of Jesus because they believe that the Qur'an is the direct revelation of God. None of our Bible verses could persuade a devout Muslim that Jesus is God and the Bible is infallible. However, I reject the Qur'an based on what is written in the Qur'an. A key scripture which Muslims cite in their rejection of Jesus being God is one of the very scriptures that makes me believe the Quran is not God's word. The scripture I'm referring to is Surah 4:171: O People of the Book (the Jews and the Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against God, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is only a messenger of God and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit from Him; believe therefore in God and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Indeed God is only one diety; far be it from His glory that He should have a son, To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, and God is All -Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. Muslims and Christians believe God is all knowing. Whether Jesus is God or just a prophet - God knows the complete truth of the matter. I feel I understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. If God were to declare the Christian doctrine of the Trinity to be heretical, it would be due to the fact that God has a far superior understanding than my own knowledge. If God wanted to tell me Jesus is not God, by using the Qur'an, God would first start by giving me an accurate depiction of what Christians believe about the Trinity before condemning it in the Qur'an. Any revelation of God would be based on absolute authoritative knowledge. The Qur'an misstates what the Trinity is, and therefore has no authority to forbid or condemn what it does not understand. In my opinion, I am free to reject the Qur'an as God's word because of this fatal flaw (among others). Although, I can see Muslims don't see this contradiction because as a result of believing every word of the Qur'an, they do not learn about and fully comprehend our beliefs about the Trinity. Just a guess on my part, but I wonder if the majority of Muslims who have truly converted to Christianity have done so because they have come to understand our beliefs about the Trinity and therefore reject the Qur'an because it does not accurately define what it condemns. On the other hand, I imagine Christians who have turned to Islam have done so because they have never understood what we believe about the Trinity and therefore can accept the authority of the Qur'an. I think Muslims and Christians discussing these issues is a worthy pursuit. In the end, we can all agree we must pray to God for His revelation. We can pray together that God would teach us both to better understand who Jesus is and how God wants us to worship!

5/13/2009 5:42:38 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

IgnitedFaith I meant that I believe that The Holly Quran is the Book of God was sent with the prophet Mohammed as the Bible is the book of God was sent with the prophet Jesus. And every Muslim must believe in the books of God as these books were mentioned in the Quran. We, Muslims, believe that the one who was executed in the cross was somebody look like Jesus but not Jesus because God wanted to protect his prophet from the Jewish and replaced him with another guy. I quoted these versus from the Holly Quran 4:157 And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. 4:158 Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. I hope I made it clear for you

5/17/2009 2:51:57 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

Ryan, Thank you for the post, I am not sure if I understand your question clearly, but I understood that you are expecting God, in the Holly Quran, to give in details about what Christians believe since God is Omniscient. I would answer you according to my understanding. I cannot speak about God and I am not sure what God means in the Holly Quran but I trust the wisdom of Almighty God and I think he did not mention the details of the Trinity because details in this position are not required. Is it? Imagine that God mention it in the Quran with details what is the point then? Could you clarify what is the difference between what the Holly Quran stated about Trinity and what you believe? Because I know that you believe that God is one and at the same time he is three. Do not you? And you believe that Jesus is son of God. do not you? I believe that Muslims who converted to Christianity were far away from the Quran although the number of Muslims who converted to Christianity is much less than the number of Christians who converted to Islam. Have you read the statistics of American people converted to Islam each year? Have you asked yourself why this number is growing each year comparing to the rate of conversion to Christianity. Have you heard about Muslim scholar that converted to Christianity? As far as I know there are some of Christian clerics of monks who converted to Islam why? Because these are the best of understanding what is the Trinity is and therefore it did not match the true fact of this universe and but they found it in the Holly Quran.

5/17/2009 3:55:49 AM by God_lover, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/11/2009

This topic should be changed to: Battle of the Books. Who is God? Shouldn't the discussion be based on your personal relationship to God? Who He is to you?

5/17/2009 2:44:42 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi God_lover, I enjoyed reading your post and I'm intrigued by the issues you raised. To answer you question - NO, I do not require God to provide ANY details about the Trinity in the Qur'an. However, Muslims and Christians expect God to be accurate in what He does say. God could not possibly contradict Himself. Surah 4:171, the verse I've referred to a couple of times, has the author of the Qur'an accurately referring to Jesus as the Messiah, Word of God and Spirit from God. These are all conclusive terms to validate that Jesus is indeed God. The passage closes with an assertion of the assumption that Christians believe in three, or at least two gods, and that Christians believe that Jesus is God by virtue of being God's son in a biological context. To a Christian, this is a glaring inconsistency and inaccuracy in the Qur'an. Christians observe that, as is often the case with men, many may know something about the testimony of Jesus and yet they reject Him. I have concluded that the Qur'an was written by man because despite callining Jesus the Messiah and knowing He will return to rule the Earth and establish a Holy Kingdom - the followers of the Qur'an reject Him as the Messiah. I know Muslims claim that Jews and Christians don't know what the title Messiah means - however, we have thousands of historical references coming from a multiplicity of sources. We even have the words of the Qur'an, lovingly preserved and added in support of our case. The term originally appeared in the Torah and cannot be redefined by the interpretation of a latter text. Muslims will say that Messiah does not mean Son of God or Savior - but, they cannot quote a verse in the Qur'an that provides a different meaning for the title Messiah. So, as men do, Muslims just assume Messiah is a title with little significance. Since Muslims do know much about Jesus Messiah, I marvel at their reluctance to pray to God for wisdom regarding the message and return of Jesus. So far, you have declined to pray to God with me that we would both understand and accept the truth about Jesus.

5/18/2009 12:59:50 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

A definition of the Trinity: There is one God - who is so great humans do not fully comprehend Him. God is a Tri-unity, with each Persona of God being equally, fully and eternally God. Each is distinct, and yet all are One. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son who became manifest in the flesh and is experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. Almighty God created the universe - the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it reality. Jesus always existed and is the part of God who came to Earth, as a man, to relate to humanity. All people are guilty of sin which carries the death penalty. However, Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of man, so that we may live with Him for eternity in His Kingdom, if we choose to accept His redemption. We can cite multiple scriptures in the New and Old Testaments which testify to the nature of God.

5/18/2009 1:04:30 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

God_lover, I'm fascinated with your mention of far more people converting to Islam than Christianity. What statistics are you referring to? You mentioned America, so I assume you live in the United States, as do I. Here there is much debate about whether the US is a Christian nation. Perhaps the Islamic world thinks of the US as a Christian nation. However, our society is not Christian and we go to great lengths to keep religion separate from government. Although a majority of our population would describe themselves as Christian - I infer that they are more likely to be culturally Christian but, that does not actually make them Christians. The number of Islamic adherents is growing in the US, while at the same time the total percentage of Christians are decreasing. However, I would be surprised to see statistics that Islam is winning a majority of people converting to any faith within the US. I assume that the increasing numbers of Muslims in this country is largely due to immigration. I'm familiar with one highly publicized case of a Christian cleric recently converting to Islam - but, as her story goes, she wanted to hold on to the two faiths at the same time. I have also read of Muslim scholars converting to Christianity. In a nation of 375 million people, you can find significant numbers of people doing just about anything. People are completely free to explore any religion they like in the US, and they do. We have a very open society with government protection of rights to decide about religion. I believe the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people who desire to please God. As I have stated before, Muslims and Christians do share some very important and beautiful commonalities. As Christians, we often hear about how people living in religiously strict countries risk losing their families, community standing and livelihood; they often face civil punishment and physical abuse and may lose their lives when they convert to Christianity. In many countries, the governments forcefully prohibit the ability of Christians to share their beliefs with others. Our Bible states that if any one leaves Christianity, it is because they were never a true believer. The only time that Jesus used force in the Bible was to throw out corrupt people from His temple. He never used force to throw anyone into His service. As Jesus' followers, we don't believe in holding on to anyone or converting anyone by force. Becoming a Christian is a free will decision and one which we are willing to risk our lives to be able to present to the people of the world, even when their governments are hostile to our message. I like the idea of being able to take the message of Jesus, in peace, to others and allowing them to make their own choice. I'm inspired by the many stories of Muslims who have responded favorably to this message.

5/18/2009 1:11:18 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

God has shown Himself to be very patient, forgiving and gracious in my life. I spent years hating Him because of a "bad" childhood. I grew up with a lot of anger and self hatred as well. God put up with all of my childish rantings and curses and had the Holy Spirit keep after me. After giving my life to Jesus I later fell back into drugs and alcohol. The Holy Spirit kept tugging at my heart with a message of love from the Father and Son. Now, at the age of 45, I am clean and sober over 11 years and I am finally starting to work for the Lord. I lead bible studies in a friend's home, I assist with our men's ministry and I am starting a ministry to mentor newlyweds. All of this to say that God uses the most unlikely people to accomplish His ends, and He never gives up on even one of His children. All of this tells me that our God is one of love more than anything. He loves us unconditionally, which is something few people can honestly claim about themselves. I love the fact that even when I cursed Him for my troubles He was there holding out loving arms to me, wanting little more than to ease my pain and bring me into a loving relationship with Him. Praise God I am finally in this loving relationship.

7/8/2009 1:11:52 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

God is..... -All knowing, ever presnt and all powerful (Matt. 10:29-31) -Holy (Rev. 15:2-4) -holy: Morally & Spiritually perfect - God's holiness merits our worship -Loving And just (2 Peter 3:3-9) -God's justice is tempered by his love -Personal (Acts 17:22-31) -This characteristics sets him apart from all the oher so called "gods". -In Control (Rom. 11:33-36) - God is in control even if things around us are in complete chaos. -Chaos:complete disorder and confusion behavior so unpredictable as to appear random -The one true God (1 corin. 8:4-6) -even though some insist on the existence of many "gods", only the God of the Bible is the one true God, worthy of our devotion. -Devotion: Love;Loyalty;enthusiasm for a person activity or cause.

8/24/2009 7:07:42 AM by Daya, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/24/2009

God is love. God is everything people forget when they debate pointless details about how to worship him and his ways. He loves you no matter who you are and what you have done because you are his sons and daughters and he created everyone to be equal. He wishes only for you to be loyal to him and to return to him the love that he has provided for you. That is my God.

11/12/2009 9:51:58 PM by kharrt, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/12/2009

Hi To all Delve into Jesus members and site creators, I like to start by saying it is been such a blessing to have accessed this site i was browsing on line . it is always wonderful when you find some thing that has many of you interest. GBU all that participated in the creation of this site and participants who make a good use of it. Reading on comments on your thought of who God is i thought i could try to put in some things in addition to many of you , how ever i don't think it will be any thing new or never heard of . Who is GOD? hmm... it has me thinking always and every time i think i know him he surprises me with a whole new dimension of who he is, i realize my knowing of God will never be finished while i am on earth it is a new spiritual revelation every day . and a continuation of my state of being while i am alive i will keep on seeing GOD through his word and when i die i will see him and be with him. I do know for sure the GOD i so far know over my life time is only found in 1 Book and that is the Holy Bible , this Book has me wondering every time some times i think selfishly when this Book's reference talks of ''all people''i translate it as only me there is no people it is for me i am the people life's that this Book refers to so personal so so personal. All my life talks of this GOD of this Book . my creation is in this book , my childhood is in this book, my adulthood is in this Book my future is in this book ,my desires r in this Book , the manifestation of the desires of GOD in my life is in this Book the GOD of my life is in this Book . Now this GOD has said 1 thing to know him you have to know his SON hmm who is his SON his SON is the word of this very same GOD who is speaking. this is it TO KNOW GOD WE HAVE TO HEAR OUR LIFE SPEAKING ,OUR LIFE SPEAK OF EVERY THING THAT IS IN THE WORD OF GOD AND IN BETWEEN,,, KNOWING HIM IS REVEALED BY KNOWING HE KNOWS ALL ABOUT US . FOR IN HIM ONLY WE HAVE LIFE. HE IS OUR VERY LIFE . some times it makes me lough every time i look for a huge big bang of a glimpse of GOD he shows him self to me by showing he knows all about me then i say hmm you sure are the ALMIGHTY GOD WHO IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP. there is no other book that has me inside and out . in fact my life is this very Book it self ,the Word is my Life with out this Word of GOD we don't exist. To those who don know The Book of Life i recommend you pick up the Bible and read it look for your life in side i found my life in side i am so glad i found it, to be in the light of things is so much better to understand OUR GOD ALMIGHTY . IN THIS WORD OF GOD I LIVE BECAUSE HE THE WORD OF GOD LIVES

1/31/2010 12:57:00 PM by annieyea, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/13/2010

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