I did something today that some of you may question, and I'm quite torn about it myself. I picked up a copy of "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. This is a book evangelizing atheism and deriding Christianity. So why would I ever spend money for a book like this? Because I see my ministry as countering authors like Dawkins and Sam Harris. As I've written elsewhere, I don't think we can stick our heads in the sand - we need to study and understand their arguments so we can point out why they don't make sense, and we can't do that without reading their books. Am I afraid of being swayed? Not at all. I used to be afraid of them because I assumed they were so much smarter and more educated than I am, but since they have reached the wrong conclusion, their argument must be wrong. I have nothing to be afraid of. There are at least three best sellers out right now promoting atheism. Something has to be done, and I am happy to be a part of the fight.

arsindelve- 6/13/2007 7:28:57 PM

Can I assume the other bestseller you're referring to is "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens? It's number 4 right now.

marklang- 6/14/2007 6:51:48 AM

Good morning, Mark. I love the new email notification system - it lets us almost have a conversation in real time if we're both in front of the computer (and why are we at before 7:00 AM?)? Yes, that's the other one I was thinking of. I saw that on the racks yesterday when I picked up my copy of "Blue Like Jazz" at Chapters yesterday. It made me sick to my stomach. Even worse, I went on Amazon late last night an started looking at all the books and reading the reviews. People are eating this stuff up. All the people who never wanted to give their lives to Christ suddenly feel liberated to turn their backs on him. It's horrible. The devil is very, very hard at work on this right now and I think the battle is going to be extremely tough.

arsindelve- 6/14/2007 6:58:33 AM

Ugghh. Why would you give that guy any money? I get that you want to understand his argument, but buying his book is like supporting him - like giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

katie- 6/14/2007 7:59:01 AM

I know what you mean. If it makes you feel better, I got it hard cover for about six bucks, so he's not getting very much. I could have borrowed it from the library, but I think I will be doing a lot of dissecting of this book in the next while. I may even base my master's thesis on it and others like it, so I really need to have a copy. I will also likely buy copies of Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens too, for the same reason. I hope I can get them used. Ick.

arsindelve- 6/14/2007 11:23:58 AM

It's been a few months, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on The God Delusion.

csalzman- 10/16/2007 2:45:23 PM

I'm sorry, but I have not read a single word in it yet! I keep buying books because I know I will want to read them, but in reality, the reading I do for my course work is all I can handle. I may not get to it until I start researching my thesis, which will be at least another year. If I do get a chance to read it, I will certainly post something here.

arsindelve- 10/16/2007 2:49:44 PM

Arsindelve - who said atheism is a non-prophet creed? And you are adding to their profit! Perhaps the number of lavishly hyped authors and their hot-selling books on the topic of atheism points to great potential. Imagine your future best seller refuting the prophets of atheism! Readers of the world must be hungering for insight or titillation on the subject; it would be rewarding to provide them a worthy debate. You may be brave enough to inspect their work, but I wonder if these authors would ignore counter perspectives more out of a sense of arrogance rather than a fear of being disproven.

I am glad your ministry includes discrediting the dark side; this has helped me immensely, for I am a doubter. The term devil's advocate was aptly coined. I am gripped by a hideous compulsion to disprove each statement I encounter which contains Christian thought, by examining it from the skeptic's viewpoint. I'm even driven to rip apart passages from sermons which quote scripture. It seems as though my arguments can keep pace with the best (or worst?) of the naysayers. The only consolation I derive from this grotesque inclination is awareness that it stems from a need to authenticate every concept before it can be processed into belief.

I have recently begun attending a truly wonderful Baptist church, but as an outsider, the alter calls horrify me. Like a train wreck, I can't look away, and find myself suppressing the urge to shout watch out! I really do know I need to learn to trust God to call people, and let Him work out the details. Nevertheless, my nature is to want these people to respond to the call out of understanding, rather than due to the emotional appeal of the pitch - a sensation which I fear may soon dissipate. You have helped me gain a much fuller understanding of how we come as we are - respond based on our own personalities - express our Christianity in our own ascribed manners - and God loves us all equally.

Trying to prove scripture from scripture (which is often what I feel I'm being served) doesn't seem to work for me. However, the bright side coming from my attempts to disprove scripture is an appreciation for the Word, in its entirety, being perfect. The more time I spend with the Word the more I can sense the perfection! Regrettably, the atheists don't know to pursue this vantage point - but, your ministry illuminates the way for many of us who are seeking.

If you decide to read the atheist propaganda, I am sure you will extract and convey many counter arguments which will be useful in your ministry - not what the authors had intended - so I guess that cancels out your aid to their bank accounts.

Ryan- 1/19/2008 7:54:44 PM

I think I'm starting to understand these Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins types a little better. If I'm correct, then the idea that God does not exist is so deeply ingrained in their hearts that no evidence can dislodge it. I think these kinds of people are so tied to that belief that if God spoke to them directly, they would suspect it was a trick or a hallucination. They are prepared to counter any evidence, no matter how persuasive because they are already convinced of the outcome.

I can sympathize with that. I feel the same way about the existence of God. You could not convince me with evidence that He does not exist.

What we all need to do is stop throwing around the word "scientific" in order to persuade people to listen, or persuade people that we are more authentic and trustworthy than the next guy. Dawkins and Harris are no more scientific than any evangelical Christians. The God they worship is "there is no God", and they will go to any lengths to make their point. It's not science. Science follows where the evidence leads; it does not selectively choose or even manufacture evidence to make a point. Dawkins and his ilk have been guilty of this, and so have many Christians.

So, in the end, I think people like Dawkins cannot be swayed with logic or evidence. I would never waste my time debating him, and he would be wasting his time (for many reasons) debating me. We could not convince each other.

But this is not to say they are a lost cause. With God, it is completely possible that they will come around. It's happened before - look at Anthony Flew. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit to change these men. Yet, lest any of us get too smug, it was a work of the Holy Spirit that changed us too. None of us, in this sinful, fallen world, could know God without His intervention. We may think we came to God based on some logic or evidence, but truly we came because the Spirit worked in us.

So why do I bother with any of this? It's not for Dawkins or Harris, it's for the people who read them. They are not yet committed to atheism like these authors, and they will be swayed by evidence and logic. The evidence we present has to be true, and it has to be more persuasive than what the atheists have to offer. But we truly have the advantage - God is on our side - and so when we trust in Him to make us wise, He will allow people to see the truth about Him through our work.

I have a few other things to say about your comments, but I wanted to get this out there before I head off and get ready for service. If I forget, remind me to bring up the subject of "Gestalt theory".

arsindelve- 1/20/2008 8:57:28 AM

Let me talk a bit about your comment about proving scriptures from the scriptures...

You and I have discussed in the past how some people come to Christ from an emotional perspective, and others from an intellectual one. I truly do think some people come from a place of logic and reason (Lewis and Lee Strobel come to mind) and so we need to be prepared for people who want to know the facts and want to be convinced with evidence. One of the biggest and most frequent mistakes Christians make when making a case for the Gospel is to start quoting scripture. Unfortunately this usually backfires. You will quickly get to a point where the non-Christian asks, "why should I believe that?" and if all you have is, "because the Bible says so" then you're right back where you started. The non-Christian is not obligated to believe one single word in that sacred text, so we had better be prepared with something else.

So, what we do is start with the Bible as a historical document only. Do not attribute any sacredness to it yet, simply present it as a document worthy of examination. If we do so, it makes an excellent case for itself as having accurately recorded the events surrounding the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (for details, you can read up on the "Case for Christ" discovery path here on the site, or even better, pick up a copy of Lee Strobel's book of the same name). Thus, if we allow the evidence to lead us to a conclusion, we will see that the best explanation which fits the evidence is that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. This is no different than looking at any other historical book, checking out it's credentials and and concluding that it is reliable, except that in this case, the conclusion is one of earth-shattering importance.

Once we have come this far with the non-Christian, we are able to go to the next step of looking at the Bible as sacred. Why? Because Jesus (and others of importance said so). And we're fine to do so, logically, because we've already proven Jesus' divinity in a different way. We are now fine to use the Bible as "proof" and hold in esteem everything it says.

Anyway, in a nutshell, that is the "Gestalt" theory. The article "Why do Christians Believe the Bible" goes into a little more depth.

So, Ryan, I hope that helps with the whole, "proving the scriptures with the scriptures" notion. Feel free to let me know if I'm way off base with what you were getting at.

arsindelve- 1/20/2008 7:06:59 PM

Thanks for the response - I wanted to reply immediately but became waylaid by the Gestalt of life. I'm not really sure how to define Gestalt, but in my view Gestalt embraces the process of parties coming together to make sense out of facts and events in a synergistic fashion, which result in a greater logically and harmoniously organized sum total. So, if there is any validity in my definition of Gestalt, this entire discussion process is Gestalt.

As soon as I read your first note, almost a month ago, I saw a huge error in my thinking. I don't know if you were gently advising me of the mistake, or if you glanced over my error while assuming I knew better. Actually, I did know better, but became obscured with my own circuitous way of thinking. My error encompassed the assumption that my own wresting with spiritual concepts could, in due course, result in a belief. However, at some point, God has to stand in the gap and complete the circuit for belief to take place. Even beyond that, God provides the power that flows through the circuit and the insulation that keeps it all safely inside.

That being said, I think there is vast room to have pity on the atheists. They, like us, are contemplating life's issues. However, they are without imagination for God and the power of God to convict them. I've traversed some dark woods where I thought I may be a few paces away from becoming an atheist or a step or two from being a Deist (Flew, no?). Perhaps some redeeming value can be drawn from that expedition, with the hindsight that a merciful love has made God known to us and holds us to Him. Poor atheists!

The larger portion of atheists and agnostics are the good atheists and agnostics. I only know a few examples of the very closed and determined variety who will go to the length of preaching their dogma. Most just quietly sit with their beliefs, or lack of beliefs. Of course, we all know the atheists who are really such wonderful people in the way they respect and care for their neighbors, or have many other fine virtues. They are the ones who make you notice your responsibility to be portraying a Christian overview in public. I believe there is great hope to reach these people, as well as those who are just leaning atheist, because they have not been exposed to any compelling counter-arguments. As you said, the right approach will prove to be effective. I now feel better prepared to be a guide to the non-Christians I know.

Ryan- 2/17/2008 10:24:31 PM

Ryan,

I absolutely love your analogy of the circuit. If you haven't noticed, I LOVE analogies, and I will look forward to using this one liberally with all due credit.

All this thought about atheists reminds me of my own awakening to the limited value of apologetics. I had the pleasure and privilege of being taught apologetics by one of the masters of the trade, a fellow by the name of John Warwick Montgomery. During one of his lectures, he acknowledged something very frank (which is the very same truth you came to in your last post.) He told us that apologetics saves no one. The Holy Spirit saves. Apologetics may, if we're very blessed, simply unlock a door to permit the Holy Spirit to come in to that person's heart. It may get someone thinking about deep truths, instead of burying themselves in their day-to-day lives.

Furthermore, the people who keep asking questions and keep asking questions but never seem to run out of logical objections probably don't need apologetics at all. They need the Gospel, or they need the Law. Their never-ending parade of questions are just a delay tactic to prevent them from dealing with the emotional and spiritual truths that await them. Men and women can put it off for their whole lives with these kinds of objections. But, there is more than enough evidence for the existence of God for anyone who wants to believe, yet there is never enough for someone who wants to doubt. Only the Holy Spirit can make someone want to believe. You are right on the money with that, Ryan. Apologetics can, at best, get them thinking and give God a foothold to work with.

Thinking of apologetics like that is humbling, which is a very good thing, lest our team ever think they are doing anything other than preaching the Gospel in another form and waiting and trusting in God to do what only He can do.

arsindelve- 2/18/2008 8:27:37 AM