Do you not think that Christians are sometimes the worst friends because they are so judgmental and harsh with one another? Why is this?

4/29/2007 7:51:00 PM by Sam, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/29/2007

Sad but true, Sam. Someone once said (I believe it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer) "Christians are the only ones who shoot their wounded." I'm going to write an article on this subject this week. I'll post a message here when it's done. I don't suggest I have all the answers, but I'll see what I can do to get to the bottom of this serious problem.

4/29/2007 8:11:14 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Sam - you can find the article by clicking here. I hope you find this helpful. I would love to hear your comments when you've finished reading it.

4/30/2007 10:13:32 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think it depends what church you go to. I've been to about half a dozen over the years. Some are good, some are bad. I don't think you can say "all Christians are judgmental" because that's being judgmental! Christians are just people, you know, and there's all kinds.

5/1/2007 11:00:10 AM by addison-x, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/29/2007

I read the article, and I think I understand what you're getting at - basically, Christians are judgmental because they don't want to admit that sin is a real problem? Did I get that right?

5/8/2007 5:40:00 PM by Sam, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/29/2007

Yes, that was my point in the article, and I think that is what lies at the heart of the issue. I'm far from an expert on these matters so I invite others to add or edit the article if they have some other ideas about this issue.

5/10/2007 3:10:15 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I got some chrisitian buddies and some non ones you know? I find that the ones who aint christians are sometimes the best ones around cuase they don't go judging me and they except me the way I am. But, I have a couple of christian buddies that are so cool and I hang with them and we attend church together. I think you gotta have both you know? I mean, if they are judging you, I think you should try and ditch them because christian lifestyle is not about judging but more about excepting everyone cause God likes to reconcile people.

7/12/2007 2:09:13 PM by Paul Tillsonburg, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/12/2007

Christians SHOULD be the most loving, wonderful people. However, they often are not. Sad, but true. It is the whole "holier than thou" position people take.

7/17/2007 5:41:46 PM by Garreth G., Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/17/2007

I agree with Garreth.

7/19/2007 5:02:23 PM by Pete L., Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/19/2007

I dont agee. I believe when you're a true christian and by that I mean living the way the word of God tells us.As a Christian youre not suppose to judge others the word of God says judge and ye also will be judged. We all were sinners at one point in our lives thats the whole reason Jesus had to give his life for us. So as a Christian I dont judge anyone because it was once in my life I was lost and God had mercy on me and put someone in my path to Minister and pray for me without judging me. So dont be discouraged by judgemental Christians pray for them because they themselves will also be judged by the only judge Jesus!!!!

1/4/2008 12:50:30 AM by GOD'S CHILD, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/3/2008

God's Child - welcome to the site, it's great to have you here. Everything you wrote is totally correct. I think the original complaint from Sam was that people who claim to love Jesus yet fail to live according to his teaching can often be worse (and much more judgmental) than people who don't even claim to follow Jesus. Sometimes non-Christian see that behavior and are totally turned off to Jesus' message. That's too bad. It just means we all have to do a better job of demonstrating what real love comes from truly living the way Jesus intended. That is because, as you said, that when someone actually lives righteously according to God's plan, we will not judge anyone, and will leave that to Him. Thanks again for your comments, and welcome.

1/4/2008 8:02:11 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Christian to Non-Christian: Personally, I think that Christians are being too lenient with their values. In an effort to be "PC," we sometimes lower our standards in an effort to not be judgemental. It is true that it is only up to God to judge, but how can we not say that promiscuity or (ooh flame on!) homosexuality is wrong? We know what is right and what is wrong by what is written by God's hand in the Bible. Christian to Christian: As a Christian, I would like to hear when I am doing something wrong. If no one tells me (aka judges my actions) then how am I supposed to stop doing it or know that it is wrong? Maybe the problem also lies with the Christians being judged (by not being open to criticism) and not the Christians that judge? Of course there is a right way to go about it: Ephesians 4:14-15 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

1/7/2008 3:58:24 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

XFrogger, I have no problem with judging actions. I, too, am getting really tired of the PC stuff. When someone is breaking God's law, then we call a spade a spade. What I am getting tired of is the vitriol that Christians seem to have for people who commit certain sins. I wrote a reflection a while back, and the message was, "yes, homosexuality is wrong, but why are Christians so angry about it? Why are we not loving the sinner and praying for them, encouraging them to turn their life around?" And you know what response I have been getting? "GAYS ARE GOING TO HELL"....and so I know I have no gotten through to that person at all. It's very, very discouraging. And so, it's not really about PC, or even about judging sins. It's about our reaction to the sinner - treating them like lepers or worse and not beloved brothers and sisters - that has really upset me. Many, many Christians are guilty of this, and it makes me so sad. If you only saw the nasty, hateful responses that I delete before they ever get posted....where is the love for the sinner as we teach them and guide them out of sin?

1/7/2008 4:14:31 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I think we are looked at very carefully becuse of the standard we are supposed to maintain. Some Christians come across as being "Holier than Thou" because they have not read their Bible properly. They mean well, but they are immature Christians. If a Christian is going by the teachings of Christ and by the Apostle Paul later on, he/she will know that they are supposed to live by Christ's example. If it were not for Christ's death and resurrection and our exception of it, we would be no different than anyone else. We are saved, not perfect. And we should love the sinner and hate the sin. Bring the sinner to Christ and let HIM do the changing. That is HIS job, not ours. Kim (trying and sometimes failing to practice what I just preached!)

1/10/2008 8:51:03 PM by solagratia, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/10/2008

Arsin-I think we are thinking on the same page but on different sides of the spectrum. I totally agree that many many Christians go about trying to convert people in the wrong ways. However, at the same time, how are they (in this example homosexuals) supposed to repent from their sin when all they need to do is find a misguided-church of God that they are accepted at? And by accepted I mean that the church teaches that it is ok to be homosexual. It is, however a fine line between intolerating sin and Bible Bashing with fire and brimstone. We need to be loving yet strict with our principles at the same time (much like good parents). I don't want to be argumentative, but even Jesus got mad and flipped a few tables over in the temple when he saw that people were disgracing his father's house (Matt 21:12). Anger for the right reasons is noble; hate and spite for our fellow man is unacceptable.

1/12/2008 2:39:12 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I never thought about this issue in terms of a spectrum, but yes, of course if we go too far in the other direction, there are all kinds of problems with that too, and I am no fan of how liberal many mainstream churches are getting. I think the reason I have so much pent up frustration with the fire-and-brimstone side of that spectrum is that they are the ones I have been hearing from lately. They have been riding us at DCMI pretty hard, as if our compassion is some kind of weakness. I try so hard to walk that fine line you're talking about. I have written articles and reflections which state, in very clear terms, that homosexuality is wrong and that the behavior has to change, with no exceptions. I also said that our role is to pray for, support and encourage homosexuals while they make that change, not shun them and verbally attack them. So, in other words, what I thought was a pretty good, biblically based center line. I never once heard from the "liberal" side, screaming at me that I was homophobic or wrong to denounce homosexuality. Instead, I heard all kinds of negative (and often nasty) comments from the "conservative" side, screaming about how homosexuality was wrong (as if I had not written the very same thing). So, because of the responses I got, I suppose I am a little sensitive about that right now. If I had heard nasty comments from the "liberal" side (and that was what I had most expected), I suppose I would be feeling a little raw in that direction as well. Maybe I need a thicker skin! Thanks for your comments. It's been very encouraging discussing these issues with someone rational, sensible and grounded.

1/12/2008 4:42:03 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I wish there was some organized effort to overhaul the ugly perception so many have of Christians and Christianity. We are all weary of our detractors framing Christians as being so hate-filled that there could not possibly be any room for the characteristics by which Christ intended for us to be known. Imagine a public relations campaign that strived to win the hearts and minds of the public by spotlighting God's love in television commercials, billboards and print media telling the world God loves you, so we love you too. I guess that until some Christian group with deep pockets connects with Madison Avenue to create this image make-over, it is up to each of us individually to be our own billboard of God's love. That can be tuff to do at times, but honestly discussing how to deal with sensitive issues like homosexuality is bound to help us refine our approach. I remember way back when I was a naive college student and told a group of students I didnt even know anyone who was gay. The response I got after making that comment made me start wondering if I knew anyone who was not gay. The old adage of there but for the grace of God go I hit me immediately and rather hard. Actually knowing real faces to put with the iniquitous label helped me realize as sinners we are all not that much different. I dont know whether people are born gay, but if not, anyone of us could have encountered life circumstances that could have led us in that direction. Not every gay person would say they have a sad life story to tell, but throughout the years I have met so many who tell very painful yet familiar stories. When you hear people talk about sufferings like sexual abuse, emotional rejection or familial discord as events that may have shaped some of the choices they've made, you can understand their plight. If any of those sufferings were not a part of your life experiences you can be thankful; if they are familiar to you, be thankful they did not open you to the struggle of homosexuality - either way there but for the grace of God go you. If you enjoy God's sense of humor you can imagine amusing ways God could choose to take the hate out of these gay bashers. Better the humor of God than His wrath for bringing scorn to His name.

1/12/2008 8:09:50 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Funny you mention the ways God use to take the hate, or at least level of discomfort on my part, out of people toward gay people. I have been bombarded with homosexual people in my life because, God knew that I was afraid of them, did not want to minister to them, and did not think they could be saved. This was a long time ago. I am still not sure if someone living in the lifestyle of homosexuality is saved (I tend to believe they are)...but I would like to believe that if they have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, then God is working on them and their "pet" sin (as I call a sin that is ongoing.), and therefore they are saved. We come to Christ AS WE ARE, then He changes us. Some more quickly than others. I mean, Jesus did die for ALL those sins (even though it is not license to sin), and we still have the ability to be deceived. Oh, and I LOVE the phrase "but by the GRACE of God..." That is how I say it. Kim

1/13/2008 10:52:02 AM by solagratia, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/10/2008

You wondered if someone living the gay lifestyle is saved. I am wondering if any saved person is living a lifestyle completely free from committing any sin. I confess to being an immature Christian and knowing next to nothing on any topic. However, who is saved strikes me as a question only Jesus can answer, and I'd feel uncomfortable making an assumption. I also confess that I'm surprised I dared to post a comment on this site and didn't think it through well, prior to doing so last night. My last confession is that at least on one occasion I could have rightly been labeled a gay basher, and probably have said extremely hurtful things about any demographic you can name at some point in my life. However, it is convenient for me to be deluded into thinking I am not guilty of the sin of hate. If you want to link all this hatefulness back to the Big 10, it would fall under the category of murder. It's funny how we look at sin in human terms. We are likely to think murder to be a more egregious sin than adultery (homosexuality in the context of the 10 commandments?). Yet a lot of us are so uncomfortable dealing with people who have committed the sin of homosexuality that we tend to view them as worse offenders (or more abhorrent) than any other type of sinner. Which is the worse sin - adultery or murder? Both require the same penalty and atoning sacrifice. It is amusing how much the unrepentant haters have in common with unrepentant homosexuals (beside the whole theory of gay bashers being latent homosexuals and the idea that a lot of homosexuals harbor self-hatred). Both groups need God's love, and we are more likely to convince them of their wrongs by demonstrating love (rather than vitriol) toward them. I think we need to strategize on how to more effectively promote the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin, so that we can demonstrate to the world the greatness of a God who loves each person equally and desires that they turn to Him, repent and be saved.

1/13/2008 6:44:14 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I think this helps me with my thoughts on whether homosexuals are saved. I found this is the Bible...this illustrates who gets saved and how it happens. Please note verses 27 and 28. Romans 3:21-28: 21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. 23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of Gods glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. 27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. I also want to point out that Paul also says that this is not license to sin. It means that we will sin, but we who ARE saved will desire not to sin because of the Holy Spirit in us and because of our desire (not obligation by the Law) to please God. Oh, and I believe we all have out own "pet sin" which we have a hard time quitting. In the Bible, as well, it says that now, all sins are the same in the eyes are God. If you are not saved, adultery will send you to Hell as fast as murder. I believe the difference is how these sins affect people here in the world. They all affect God the same way...a sin is a sin to Him (I am not trying to downplay sin at all, by the way). But each sin has its own earthly consequence (as opposed to eternal consequence.) I hope I am not confusing anyone. What I mean is, if you kill someone, I believe you can actually accept Christ and get saved, but you are still going to the electric chair. You are just going to meet Christ a lot faster that someone who is saved and lives a long life without committing murder in a place that practices the death penalty! By the way, I have a wonderful friend who LOVES Christ and is to me obviously a saved Christian...who is also gay. As for judging, I have been reading a litle about that subject in the Bible about it and I think there is a difference between being a Judge as God is and judging people by TESTING the spirits: 1 John 4:1-6 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. Anyway, I hope I have not angered or alienated anyone. I think Paul summed things up here in Romans 13:9-10: 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Love in Christ, Kim

1/14/2008 10:57:39 AM by solagratia, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/10/2008

Ryan and Kim, I want to let you both know how grateful I am for your contributions to this discussion. These are the kinds of debates we really need to have if we are going to grow, reach out, change perceptions and by extension, change lives. You've both done such a good job of elaborating on these issues, that I have really just been content to sit back and be impressed. Thanks so much!

1/14/2008 8:39:25 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I hate to be pessimistic, but realistically, I wonder how much longer it will be before the extremists come out of the woodwork and start to tell us how wrong Ryan and Kim are, and that anyone who is gay could never be saved and is going to hell. For those people, let me be proactive and make it as clear as I can: "no one is saying that homosexuality is acceptable! We are saying that you treat it like any other sin" Ok? Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all sin. Like I said, I don't want to be pessimistic but we've seen it time and time again. Arsin Delve shared some of the responses he got from his reflection, and they would make you weep. These people tend to be so much more vocal than the Kims and Ryans, and this is the message that non-Christians are getting from them: "you can be a Christian as long as you are perfect. If you have anything wrong with you, don't apply." Well, who the heck would want to have anything to do with Christianity? Sadly, we are Christ's ambassadors. We can try to separate it, and say that people will seek Jesus despite us, but we are the "face" of Christianity. If we turn people off, they will be turned off, period. Ryan is right on the money - we need a marketing makeover. There is a ministry calling in that, I know it! God bless you, Ryan, Kim, XFrogger and the others. You've been intelligent and eloquent, and I hope you change some hearts (or that the Spirit changes hearts through your words)

1/14/2008 8:54:38 PM by tom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2007

Thanks for the encouragement Tom! Recently a wise and famous teacher said to me, I wonder what would make Christ happier - a man who is passionate in his love but does not put that into action, or a man who is quiet and reserved in his love, but earnestly serves God with his entire being? I was hoping to take action on that admonition, and was serious about wanting to collectively plot strategies to more effectively promote the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin. Is anyone up for the challenge/is this worthy of a new discssion topic?

1/15/2008 12:02:25 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Count me in! That has been my person slogan for a long time now. Along with, bring them to Christ and let Him do the rest. ;) That is why I brough those Bible verses with mein m lastpost. I cannot just go verse by verse. I have to go in context. I also believe that when the Bible is written, you have to read it and understand the audience it is written to in each instance (like in each church Paul was talking to, like regarding women in leadership roles, etc.). And don't for get the Law verses Grace. Wow! But we must becareful not to EXCUSE such behavior. We have to tell people, "Look, we are not condoning what you do. We LOVE you. Jesus LOVES you. He cares so much about you that he died for you. We all sin. I sin, you sin and that is why He died. If any of us were perfect, we would not be having this conversation." So yes, count me in. Kim

1/15/2008 12:32:31 PM by solagratia, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/10/2008

Excellent idea, Ryan. I'd be glad to participate! I think this current discussion has done a great job of looking at the theory and the underlying concepts, but I imagine Ryan's topic would be more pragmatic -- more of a "how-to"...I think it would be a tremendous resource. I look forward to it.

1/15/2008 12:50:52 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I've heard it said: "One of the biggest stumbling blocks for unbelievers are Christians." It's extremely sad but true. Unbelievers see us failing to live like Jesus lived and label all of us as hypocrites. I'd be very interested in finding a way to change people's perceptions of us as Christians. Start it up, I'm in!

1/15/2008 3:40:36 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

It is wonderful to encounter some passionate people who want to jump in and work. A day or two ago, I may have been eager to start something, with grand illusions, but with little preparation and knoweldge - which is my usual style. Now I am wondering - if we want to create something of value to a wider commnity beyond us, perhaps we should consider a more grounded approach. I propose we set a date to begin - say February 1 -and use the remaining days to pray for guidance and real results. Perhaps we could re-read the Devotional titled Listening to God, or anything else ArsinDelve, or others may suggest. I don't want to be a drag on anyone's enthusiasm, so it is fine with me if others are ready to roll at any time. Any thoughts?

1/16/2008 8:22:18 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Although the discussions are indexed by Google and are searchable, I don't suppose that too many people wander into to this part of the site when they are looking for resources. I think they come here to talk. However, as I have been reading what has been written in this forum the last few days, I have been thinking, "this could easily evolve into a wonderful and inspirational article, reflection or devotional." I would love to see that happen. I want the site to have much more member-submitted content than it currently has. Perhaps you can see these discussions as the sounding board or the brainstorming session for something bigger and better. We don't need to be too concerned about getting it exactly right straight out of the gate. What we need is to encourage each other with new ideas, new directions and new ways of thinking. With any luck (and a great deal of guiding from the Holy Spirit) I think we can end up with something which, once condensed and edited, could stand to serve as one of the most important resources on the site, created collaboratively and representing the best our members have to offer. So, my vote would be to get started on a brand new discussion and see where the Spirit guides us, then make something to stand the test of time from the result.

1/16/2008 8:38:57 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Ryan's new topic is now available, it's called "Love The Sinner Hate The Sin." I hope everyone from this topic will join us in this new discussion. I know some great, practical advice and new insight is going to be shared by all. Thanks, Ryan!

1/28/2008 6:57:31 AM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

well i think that judging someones lifestyle is GOds job , our job is to love them and help lead and guide them to the cross and that dont mean preach at them either.. I am pretty sure a gay person has heard it all about what God thinks about how he or she is living why not try to just reach out and love them and surprise them by not judging them and when they ask you " arent you goin to tell me how wrong i am" tell them " nope , iam here to love you " Telling you that your wrong well it sounds to me like you have had a lifetime of people telling you that and it has gotten you no where right" some of us need to step out on faith and just LOVE them be there for them we all know that they will have their humbling point in their life and are going to need spiritual support so why not just start loving them now.. show Christs love..

1/29/2008 8:37:43 AM by carrie_wilson, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/29/2008

Hi Carrie - I agree with your comments and I 'm glad you helped return my thoughts to the subject. Perhaps you would like to join the conversation just getting started under the discussion topic Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin. I am sure your participation would be appreciated there as well.

1/29/2008 4:12:50 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Excuse me, could someone explain "PC" to me. Please tell me it's not pseudo Christians. Thank you.

2/1/2008 1:33:51 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

PC = "Politically Correct". I won't speak for anyone else, but personally when I use this term, I use it to mean people who are more concerned with the appearance of correctness than actual correctness - making sure they use the "right" terms and phases in order not to offend anyone, often at the expense of saying what really needs to be said - too scared to appear intolerant, and thereby accepting things that should not be tolerated...etc.

2/1/2008 1:52:25 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thank you, Arsin. God knows I love this website. It gives me the opportunity to work out my salvation (Phillipians 2:11-13) I don't know what politically correct is and really don't care. I try to let my life reflect the words that come out of my mouth. That, in itself, consumes 16 of my hours every day(I sleep 8). I don't have an opinion on homosexuality as I am not a homosexual. I do have an opinion on how Christians should treat other people, though. We are to love other people as we ourselves are loved. My motto is: Love and a nice buble bath will solve most of the world's problems. My favorite answer to questions about things I know nothing or little about is from John 21:22, "...what is it to you? You must follow me." These are the words Jesus spoke to Peter when Peter questioned Him about John. I strive to follow Jesus and let Him deal with the souls of others. I believe that in following Christ, we are to pray, encourage and exhalt not judge or condemn others. Be they Christians or not. And may I add for those who say we are not perfect, strive for it. (Matt. 5:43-48) God never tells us to do something that cannot be done. There, that's about a dime worth of my thoughts on this subject. I know you feel like you have change coming from the dime.

2/1/2008 2:50:50 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Oh my goodness, I laughed out loud, you have just made my day...I love your attitude! And, I think I may have to put John 21:22 in my list of top ten verses. I've never stopped to think about how deep that verse really is. Thanks for helping me see it in a new light. I feel my calling, and the calling of this ministry is apologetics, and therefore I need to have a ready answer for anyone who has questions. But, in my own walk with the Lord, it would be such a relief to "just follow Him." I anxiously wait for the day I relax and just do that.

2/1/2008 3:00:22 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

It is true that we are required to have answers for those who don't yet recognize Christ as Lord. But, is it our reponsability to moderate the squabbles and infighting among our brothers and sisters? That is what this discussion has been about, not apologetics. For better or worse, that is what much of the other discussions have been about as well. There is very little pure apologetics going on in the forums. I would love for us all to just step back and "follow Jesus" as Mrs Piggy says, and put these disagreements behind us. Do these discussions have value, or are we just tearing each other down?

2/1/2008 3:10:45 PM by marklang, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/3/2007

Mark, You made me stop and think for a moment...but.... There is an apologetic component to all of this. One of the topics that keeps coming up again and again in this discussion is how we respond to sin in others. As a Christian, when we discover a co-worker is homosexual, do we tell them they are wicked and going to hell, or do we demonstrate the love of Christ by praying for them, supporting them and leading them to the truth of the Gospel? If we do the former (and this is becoming far too prevalent) then we are turning people away from Christ in droves. How we treat each other is like a bright neon sign, either calling people to come to Christ, or to run for the hills. We simply have to do a better job of showing the love that is at the core of our faith - people's eternal souls are at stake. Sorry if that sounds melodramatic, but that is why this dialog is so important.

2/1/2008 3:26:37 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Marklang, These discussions have merit. Yes, as we are our brother's keepers, we are to moderate and be the first to show love to all concerned. The competition is in who wants to be first to show love, not who is right or wrong. We honor God when we strive to be the first to show love. I am not apologizing for loving God's children. And we are all God's children. God has obedient and disobedient children. We can't choose which ones we want to love. The commandment was to love others as yourself. It's about will you obey the commandment or not. Aside: Add lavender scent to your bubble bath and you will feel more relaxed.

2/1/2008 4:26:21 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

And may I add, Romans 12:18 reads: If it is possible, as far as it depends on You, live at peace with everyone. I am that YOU.

2/1/2008 4:38:25 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs.Piggy, You mentioned: Quote- "And we are all God's children. God has obedient and disobedient children..." - Mrs. Piggy -------------------------------------- I have never read in the Bible that 'we are all God's children.' I know the Bible tell us that we are all Created by God. That is not the same as being His child. The Bible does say that a person has to Become a child of God through faith in Christ. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 (Now I will add to this discussion.) Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:6

3/30/2008 7:44:26 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, God bless you. Yes, you're right. I know you have never read in the Bible that "we are all God's children". This was my interpretation. But, you have read John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." He died for ALL. 2 Peter 3:9c " He(God) is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So, those who have accepted Christ (obedient) those who haven't (disobedient). I understand that those who accept Christ become sons of God. That's why I stated we are all His children. Not all His sons. To use an OT example. Ishmael was the first born of Abraham, but Isaac was the heir. Both were his children, but the promise was passed on only to Isaac. Is this more understandable?

3/30/2008 10:50:45 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MissPiggy, Your example: Quote: To use an OT example. Ishmael was the first born of Abraham, but Isaac was the heir. Both were his children, but the promise was passed on only to Isaac. - MissPiggy ----------------------------- Ishmael and Isaac are children of 'Abraham.' (Yes) Where does it say they are children of 'God?' Could you please find the Scripture to back up your answer? Thanks!

3/30/2008 11:04:51 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

My apologies for this. There is no scripture that I can find to back this up. I extrapolated that if Adam and Eve were God's children and all mankind came from them, all mankind are His children. Jesus died for all mankind. I reasoned with myself that if He died for all mankind, all mankind must be His children. In addition, John 11:51-52 encouraged this belief.

3/31/2008 8:49:41 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MrsPiggy, I understand that God Created everyone! Again, I never read that Adam and Eve were 'God's children', but that they were 'God's Creation.' (The next two verses I added ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to point out something!) "In this the children of God are manifest, and the CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3:10 "YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and the lusts of your father ye will do . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44 MissPiggy, I just want to tell you that I also used to believe that everyone was a child of God. That is what I was taught before I became a Christian. Then I started to read the Bible, and I found that alot of what I was taught, was not true! I believe the Bible! Thank you for sharing, MrsPiggy. God bless you!

3/31/2008 11:08:55 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, I really thank you for setting me straight on this. I was raised to believe that we are all God's children. I never thought to look to see if it lined up with the Word. I stand corrected and will never say that again. God bless you.

3/31/2008 12:12:43 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ignited Faith, Whose child was I the day before I accepted Christ?

3/31/2008 12:19:18 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MrsPiggy, Before a person is saved through faith in Christ, they are lost and in the dark, and heading for hell. Satan (the god of this world) is their spiritual father, not God. Satan blinds a person's mind, so they can't see the light of the Gospel of Christ. People choose to serve and obey God or Satan. You can't serve two masters. You have to choose one. Those who do not come to faith in Christ, love the darkness and love their sins. Otherwise they would come to the light- which is Christ. "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:17-21 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you , Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." John 8:34 "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death." John 8:18-52 Jesus said; "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

3/31/2008 1:59:58 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, I accept that I was a child of the evil one, because I sinned. But new born babies who have not "danced with the devil" are not God's children either? I understand that we were all born into sin but their only sin was being born. Yet, they are children of the dark one? I will have to pray on this for a long time. I thank you for the enlightenment, but this hurts me to the core.

3/31/2008 2:55:13 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MrsPiggy, I understand where you are coming from. I believe that the Lord already knows who will choose to believe and serve Him, and who will not. (Even concerning a child.) The verse below I again have added ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to stress a point. "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. "For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. YET, BEFORE THE TWINS WERE BORN OR HAD DONE ANTHING GOOD OR BAD- IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION MIGHT STAND: NOT BY WORKS BUT BY HIM WHO CALLS- SHE WAS TOLD, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN: "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:6-19 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4 "O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD." Psalm 139 1-4 "My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." Psalm 139:15-16

3/31/2008 3:29:55 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, God bless you!! For you have really blessed my soul today. (Not that you aren't always a blessing). But Today, you have gone above and beyond. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you.

3/31/2008 3:56:48 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

IgnitedFaith, Please read Psalms 82:6. No response is needed. God bless you.

4/4/2008 8:06:21 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

IGNITED PLEASE CAN I SAY SOMETHING PLEASE WHERE YOU WROTE ABOUT BEING BORN INTO SIN AND IN DARKNESS YOUR A NEW BORN BABY YOUR ONLY SIN IS BEING BORN , YET THEY ARE CHILDREN OF THE DARK ONE.I USED TO ALSO STRUGGLE WITH THIS, YOU SEEM HAPPY WITH YOUR ANSWER ,BUT I DIDN'T REALLY GET ANYTHING OUT OF THAT ANSWER BUT GOD LOVED ONE AND NOT THE OTHER AND GOD PICKS AND CHOOSES WHO HE HAS MERCY ON , FIRST I WANT TO SAY THAT WHEN WE ARE BORN WE ARE BORN TO SIN BUT NOT DARKNESS IF WE SHOULD DIE AS A NEW BORN OR A CHILD TO YOUNG TO KNOW ABOUT GOD 1 OR 2 YRS OF AGE THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, SO THEY CAN'T LEAVE IN THE DARKNESS IF THEY STILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND I'M ONLY SAYING 1 0R 2 YRS OF AGE BUT IT'S ALSO IS OLDER THEN THAT. CATHOL. FEEL IF THEY BAPTIZED THERE CHILD AT 6 WEEKS THEN THEY, IF SOMETHING SHOULD HAPPEN TO THEM WILL GO TO HEAVEN, EVEN IF THERE NOT BAPTIZES, THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN . AND THAT SCRIPTURE GOD WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHO EVER, WHEN I READ THAT, I NEEDED TO EXPLORE BECAUSE THAT JUST DIDN'T SOUND LIKE GOD, AND ITS NOT CUT AND DRY AS IT SOUNDS THERE IS A WHOLE STORY BEHIND THAT SCRIPTURE HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST LOVING AND NOT LOVING ANOTHER PICKING AND CHOOSING,THE STORY IN THAT HAS TO DO WITH ALREADY NON BELIEVERS AND IT HAS A LOT MORE MEANING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAD HAPPENED IN THAT TIME, GOD LOVES US ALL, AND HE HAS MERCY ON ALL OF US. SORRY FOR ADDING MY 2 CENTS. RYAN WHAT U WROTE ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS. THAT WAS SO SO BEUTIFUL, I THINK BECAUSE I ALSO KNOW MANY, THERE ARE THE MOST KINDEST PEOPLE AND LIKE YOU SAID THEY SEEM TO BE THE WORST SINNERS AND I WONDER HOW THEY ARE SWEET AND YES I KNOW A LOT THAT ARE BORN AGAIN THEY LIVE THE BEST THEY CAN LOVING GOD, BUT THEY ARE WHO THY ARE, OR WE CAN HAVE A PERSON WHO GOES AROUND JUST MURDERING FOR THE FUN OF IT AND IT'S THE SAME SIN, AND PEOPLE WHO HURT CHILDREN.AND WITH THE HOMOSEXUAL'S I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO REALLY ARE. NOT SOME ONE WHO GOES ALL OVER.SO I THINK THAT'S WERE GODS JUDGEMENT COMES IN.

4/5/2008 2:48:39 PM by LORIL, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/23/2008

Loril, I babysit a child who is just over one year old. I notice that he already has to be told "NO" quite often! We are told in the Bible to; "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 (I added all CAPITAL letters to the verse below, for attention purpose.) Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. THE WICKED ARE ESTRANGED FROM THE WOMB: THEY GO ASTRAY AS SOON AS THEY ARE BORN, SPEAKING LIES. Psalms 58:1-3

4/5/2008 7:40:39 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

IgnitedFaith, Your spirit reminds me so much of my daughter, I actually wrote her an email and asked her if she was IgnitedFaith. She said no. I gave her this scripture and now I want to give it to you, Psalms 45:7. As I told her, "Hide it in your heart."

4/5/2008 9:53:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

May I add my two cents to the PC comments really quickly? This is something that my mom is struggling with - and I asked her to read Luke 6:26, which states, "There's trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests; look how many scoundrel preachers were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular." (The Message) I think when we minister to others, we must also remember what Proverbs 15:4 states, "Kind words heal and help; cutting words wound and maim", along with Proverbs 18:21, "Words kill, words give life; they're either poison or fruit; you choose." We need to be true... but we need to talk softly, with kind words, when we choose to rebuke others for their sins. Like I said, just my two cents. ;)

4/5/2008 10:39:34 PM by txhoneydarlin, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/5/2008

YES IGNITED AND I'VE RAISED THREE KIDS AND WE SHOULD RAISE OUR CHILDREN FROM BIRTH WITH THE TEACHING OF GOD AND TO HOPEFULLY PUT THEM ON THE RIGHT TRACK WHEN THEIR GROWN, IF U WANT TO BELIEVE THAT GOD TAKES INNOCENT BABIES OR CHILDREN WITH BIRTH DEFECTS THAT DO NOT HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF LEARNING, AND THROW THEM INTO THE DARKNESS AND DOES NOT EXCEPT THEM INTO HIS KINGDOM THAT IS VERY SAD. IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD U CAN READ AND INTURPET THE BIBLE IN MANY WAY, I JUST WANTED KNOW THAT I A LEAST HAD A CHANCE FOR YOU TO HEAR ABOUT OUR LOVING GOD.THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. BUT HOPEFULLY THE SPIRIT WILL GUIDE YOU, MABEY YOU SHOULD TRY GETTING SOME OTHER FEED BACK ON THIS

4/5/2008 11:06:00 PM by LORIL, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/23/2008

txhoneydarlin, Do you live in Texas? Ever get a garden snake in your house or hear of it happening to anyone?

4/5/2008 11:13:25 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Yes, mrspiggy, I live in Texas. I've never heard of a garden snake in anyone's house, although I have heard of a rattlesnake being indoors here locally - so I'm thinking having a garden snake in a house is not too far fetched to believe... I'm not real knowledgeable of snakes and their habits, as I tend to avoid them when possible - or run over them on dirt roads, making sure to slide on them - or shoot them when I find them in my Nana's tank or my parents' tank... *giggling* Snakes are just "ugh!!!" with me... and here in Texas, they seem to thrive, much to my dismay at times. :P

4/5/2008 11:19:34 PM by txhoneydarlin, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/5/2008

Thank you. I think it was a garden snake. It was a baby about 7 inches long. I swept him up in the dust pan and threw him out the back door. Had he been large I'm not sure what I would have done. I had this happen a couple of times. Once I was on the phone with my husband and he told me to step on his head. He had Genesis 3:15. After crushing the thing, I still had to sweep him up. yuck! I had a friend who had one in her living room and her husband shot him. Messed up her new carpet. Okay, I know this is way off topic. Sorry all.

4/5/2008 11:32:54 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

You're more than welcome - off topic and all, lol. I'm glad you were safe and kept from harm, garden snake or not... You know, I am terrified of the dark... last weekend after working in my yard all day, time came to dump the leaves in a very dark bar ditch a bit far from my house for comfort... I quoted Isaiah 41:10, "Don't panic. I'm with you. There's no need to fear for I'm your God. I'll give you strength. I'll help you. I'll hold you steady, keep a firm grip on you." all the way there and back - and lo and behold, nothing in the dark got me, and best of all - I wasn't afraid of the dark for the first time that I can remember! =D I don't know if you will gain the same feeling of safety I did when dealing with snakes in your house - but hopefully, this scripture will help you the next time you are dealing with things that cause you to fear. *hugs*

4/5/2008 11:46:45 PM by txhoneydarlin, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/5/2008

Do not be afraid of the dark. YOU are the light. Where light goes, darkness must flee.

4/6/2008 10:13:23 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

You know - I never thought of it that way. Thank you for some valuable insight - and another tool to fight my fear. :) Honestly - I'm not sure if it's a fear of the dark, per se - or the things in the dark that can see me to "get me" that I can't see first. (ie: snakes, skunks, wild hogs, etc...) I can sit in a deer blind in the dark and feel okay - but ask me to walk to or from that deer blind in the dark - I'm helpless, lol. I've been that way for as long as I can remember - and things that go "bump" in the dark - just are ugh! to me and scare me to death. I am doing better about conquering my fears lately, but every "tool" that I can use to help me is much appreciated.

4/6/2008 10:18:32 PM by txhoneydarlin, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/5/2008

hey mrs piggy: how are u hey i know that u have posted the question a long time ago about being a child born and one was tellin u that u are a child of darkness and all that ok but i don't know the scripture that i am going to use cuz i didn't even know anything about this web site as of now but it is in the new testament it goes something like this "where there is no law no sin can be accountable" i know that ain't it to the exact words but pretty much that is what's said so i hope that when u read the bible then u can find it and also that it enlighteneds u but yes get back to me if u like and let me know if that helped

6/3/2008 7:31:28 PM by fireproof, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Hi Fireproof, I like your name. The scripture you're referring to is Romans 4:15b, And where there is no law, there is no transgression. Thank you.

6/3/2008 8:14:41 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

I really believe this to be true. It is very sad. I believe it is because we get so involved in the legalities of Christianity that we forget what this life is all about. It is serving Christ, yes there are laws and rules we must abide by and follow if we are to be Christ-like but that come with falling in love with Christ more and more each day. I do find this a problem and tend to shy away from Christian "friends" I am a loner anyway I have some that I like to talk to that won't judge me. However they are far and few in between. Tammy

7/19/2008 4:38:31 AM by lenae, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/19/2008

I would like to comment to babies not going to heaven as being born into sin. Being born into sin is true but a baby is incapable of knowing right from wrong, hence sin. Without the law there was no sin. John 15:22 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. John 15:24 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. To receive Jesus Christ one must have understanding which a child does not. Now at what age a child can choose to receive Christ I am not sure if there is an age in the old testament as Samuel was called as a prophet at the age of eleven. Baptism cannot be done until one accepts our Lord Jesus Christ. Not a catch 22. Dedications are done by parents to say that they will promise to God to bring the child up in His ways. I used to call it the three baptisms until I found out the first was dedication, the baptism can only be accepted by the individual once accepting Christ and with some they receive the Holy Ghost instantly upon acceptance or some by the laying on of hands. Does suffer the little children to come unto me for such is the kingdom of heaven have any bearing. This was my initial clue. I lost a child years ago and was so distraught when a person with malice told me my son was gone to hell so I took it upon myself to do a study to disprove the theory. There was more to my findings but it was so long ago I don't recall it all. Would God whose doctrine is love really send an innocent child to hell? How can a child sin or choose not to sin even at the age of six. Think about the child sexual abuse that happens anywhere from birth into the teen years and some longer. What about child pornography? Is it sin and at what point is it sin? When we talk about judging we are now judging the very innocent. Maybe now we should discuss suicide!

7/19/2008 12:20:00 PM by shurdell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/22/2008

I will add to this part of the Hell issue. Something to think about. What sort of God would give you a choice of LIVE FOR ME OR GO TO HELL! In reading the bible Jesus spoke of Life and Death. So my question to you is why are you serving God? Is it because you are afraid to go to Hell or because you want to see Jesus and just tell him you love Him. Hell in the bible is the literal grave. Look in your concordance and follow the word through the Bible. It is very interesting. Yes to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not. TO HIM IT IS SIN. We have to know the law then we are responsible for what we know and understand then when and if we transgress the law it is sin.

7/19/2008 9:02:07 PM by lenae, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/19/2008

Hi Lenae, I love the Lord Jesus and I believe in Heaven and I believe in Hell (which is Everlasting Fire). "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:31-46

7/20/2008 2:27:25 AM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

I believe we think Christian friends are the worst because they call on us to be accountable to our profession of Christianity. There are many laws and behavior that man has attached to how Christians should conduct themselves. Jesus gave two major commandments, which cover the entire law. Love God with your all and your neighbor as yourself. Everything else falls under these two. Yes, hell is very real. So is heaven. There is also an up and a down. An in and an out. Good and evil. Evil is the absence of good. Whether hell is a lake of fire or separation from God does not matter. Whether a person chooses Jesus to avoid hell or because they want to be with Jesus, does not matter. Once they choose Jesus and get to know Who He is, they will fall in love with Him and the result of the choice will be for His love. We must remember, we don't just choose Jesus (life) one time, we make the choice every minute of every day. We "backslide" when we chooose not life (Jesus).

7/20/2008 1:26:48 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi lenae: To start, there is but one God and if someone else were to ask that of me, I wouldnt think of agreeing. Secondly, if a person knew God, I mean really searched Him out, they wouldnt even think to ask such a question, it would suggest to me either a newborn in the Lord or an antichrist. Why do I serve God? Because He loves me more than I can tell and has given so much more than I can return. A person cannot serve God just to keep from going to hell. God is not a fool for He knows our hearts. Ezekiel 22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. 22:20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. 24:11 Then set it empty upon the coals thereof, that the brass of it may be hot, and may burn, and that the filthiness of it may be molten in it, that the scum of it may be consumed. Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I can't remember where in the NT but we have the law in us. The bible brings us spiritually deeper and closer to God. It reveals God's truths and mysteries. It helps us to understand how to search for Him and to know Him better. I have lived through a life of many trials and tribulations of diverse nature and God is my strong tower. If it were not for Him I would not be but He gave me strength to hold on and overcome. I have been to the top and to the bottom so I know both worlds in more ways than one.

7/21/2008 7:07:12 AM by shurdell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/22/2008

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