Is Jesus connected in any way with Joseph rather than King David?

1/28/2010 1:51:23 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

In the discussion, Doctrine of the Trinity, you mentioned, a few times, that Jesus could not be the Messiah because Jesus did not finish the work of the Messiah.

I mentioned Isaiah 53 as a description of the Messiah. Did you find anything in that chapter, regarding the Messiah being rejected and slaughtered like a lamb, that Jesus left unfinished?

1/28/2010 9:22:30 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
I said several times that if Jesus was in fact on the spiritual level required to fit in to this prophesy then he could be the one discussed there; But you have no way to know if in fact he was on this level or if he is the Mashiach discussed there, since there are many candidates that could fit this description.
But even if this prophesy was referring to Jesus, I would still insist that he will not return the way you described, rather the the same soul will be born into another body and grow into the position of Mashiach.
Also, your thinking that he is God is certainly a distorted picture of him. The thought that led to creating the God image for him was an error based on an incorrect assumption.
The reason why a holy human being is able to release others from their sins is due to their position and fatherly figure that they can receive the beating in place of others. As I said earlier, they willingly take on this responsibility and act like a co-signer for sins.
Jesus has not finished the job of Mashiach until his soul can return and do all that's required.
Even if he had this special soul of Mashiach, he was not the first to have it and not the last.
What I intend on discussing at this point is the concept that there are really two separate Mashiach souls, one that comes from King David (actually beginning from Yehudah-one of the 12 sons of Jacob), and one that comes from Joseph.
If it would be true that Jesus had one of these souls, I believe that it was the one from Joseph. I will explain more later.

1/28/2010 1:45:41 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

Where do get this "returning soul" stuff?

I can't fathom that is Biblical but, I will gladly look at any verses you'd care to cite. If this theory comes from Jewish oral tradition, I'd like to examine some rationale for its reliability.

I do not intend this to be rude - so I hope you understand that I'm only looking for proof - in the same way you are when you assert that the NT has no validity. I'm sure you can understand why an outsider needs additional support to gain the slightest bit of insight into these matters.

At present, these are my hang-ups with oral tradition:
1.) I have no experience or connection with it
2.) I can read numerous accounts of God whacking the religious establishment with His disapproval of how they failed to worshiped and failed to relate to Him throughout the OT. Therefore, I assume oral tradition paints the Jews in a prettier religious light but, may likely just be the same old stuff that always got God lathered in the written accounts that I know came form God.
3.) Based on the information you've supplied regarding the rendering of Leviticus 17, my meager understanding can only permit me to conclude that your tradition has not accurately responded to the word of God in relation to His command for sacrifice to atone for sin
4.) Related to the above point, your oral tradition seems to discount the love God has for Israel in not accounting for the fact that God would never leave Israel - not even for a moment - without a lawful means by which they may be wholly redeemed to Him within His law and not by circumventing the law.

So, where do you get the "returning soul" & "two Messiahs" from? Can you cite any scriptural evidence that can authenticate Jewish oral tradition as having come from God?

I could go on at length over the many points I value from Judaism and appreciate form Jewish culture - so, I hope you know that I'm open to considering anything you offer on the subject and that I appreciate your effort.

However, the only Messiah I know does perfectly demonstrate God's love for Israel - Jesus not only died to atone for their sin but, also rebuilds the Temple! Now that is some Messiah!

1/29/2010 2:52:25 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
I must tell you that the OT was never intended to be open and available to anyone other than the children of Israel (Jacob). This is true of the written OT as well as the oral tradition of the OT which were both given by God to Israel at Sinai.
I am limited as to how much I can discuss with you since we are not allowed to teach this to a non-Jew.
Since the written OT has become translated and largely available to all, and since you have these questions about Mashiach and his connection with Jesus, I have been discussing matters that are primarily connected to clarify these issues; In order that you have a proper insight to the truths of God.
There is also no purpose in my quoting from oral tradition since you are unfamiliar and would consider it, in your opinion, no more authoritative than I consider the NT to me.
This idea of a second Mashiach is well known to any orthodox Jew who is familiar with the Oral tradition.
Conservative and Reform are generally illiterate in this area and certainly unreliable to discuss these matters.
There is no provable mention in the written OT about this. But in fact your quote from Zechariah 12:10 is a primary source that is used to discuss this Mashiach that has this soul of Joseph. The funeral that is discussed there is considered to be on that Mashiach who will die at some point while attempting to redeem his people.
There is perhaps another mention of him in Zechariah 4:14, but again no clear provable mention.
Concerning this returning soul, it is also well known to us that each mashiach has a very special soul which is on a very high spiritual level, and that in every generation there is someone with that soul who could be the mashiach. It is my theory that this soul is the same returning soul,( rather than a new soul each time ) which I base on certain oral tradition sources.
My goal with all this is to present a theory about Jesus possibly being connected to the soul of Joseph which would help to explain many unanswered questions and make sense of the Christian and Moslem infatuation over Jesus, which I do believe has been manipulated by God.
If my theory is correct, then the end result would be that in fact even the Jewish opinion could possibly accept Jesus in a respectable way; And perhaps admit that his death was our mistake just as the brothers of Joseph were guilty for attempting to kill Joseph. It would also become understandable why the Christians and Moslems believe that he is Mashiach.

1/30/2010 12:17:24 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

Who are the children of Jacob?

Millions of the sons of Judah found my ancestral homeland a fair place to settle. It may be possible that the wandering offspring of Judah's brothers arrived there first, to be prepared to greet their late-coming cousins.

God has made our ears to hear and our eyes to see (Proverbs 20:12). Like Job, my eyes have seen and my ears have heard - I therefore understand (Job 13:1).

I have not heard much from your oral tradition; however, I can see there are multiple variations of the Talmud. So, I'm bound to find it disagreeable - especially where it is unsupported by the Bible.

I admire your zeal and as for how you handle criticism, you are as strong and unaffected as a lion. I wonder if when God blessed you with these qualities, He was considering how you would use them when you meet the Lion of Judah.

Regarding your oral traditions on a returning soul of the Messiah and two Messiahs - I say it's cool of you to clue me into something of which most Jews are not aware. To promote your theory though, you have to really research the life of Jesus. Of course, I think the NT is your best source of information - but, you always accuse me of being stubbornly biased.

My biggest question about why some Jews feel the Talmud is God's word comes from my reading of the OT. Everywhere in the OT, God is complaining that the Jews would not listen to and follow His word! Since that is true of Israel's response to the written word, how accurately could oral concepts have been passed through the generations? I say oral traditions are probably much less accurate to God's intentions than the written account of Judah's track record.

I was disappointed that your tradition says that God does not demand a blood sacrifice for sin and that Leviticus 17 provides an easy out to obeying God's commands for sacrifice. That is not how the written word reads.

The written word speaks of one Messiah - who died as a sin offering for His people & rebuilds the Temple.

Regarding Jesus, you wrote:

If my theory is correct, then the end result would be that in fact even the Jewish opinion could possibly accept Jesus in a respectable way; And perhaps admit that his death was our mistake just as the brothers of Joseph were guilty for attempting to kill Joseph.

I believe the death of Jesus is not the fault of the Jews. The responsibility for the death of Jesus is equally and entirely on each individual who has ever lived.

God is not repeatedly sending men with the soul of the Messiah and hoping that the Jews are ready to receive Him.

God's written word says that the Jews, as a whole, don't recognize the Messiah when He comes (see Zechariah) - but when God intervenes and makes them understand who the Messiah is, they finally experience unending peace, harmony and fellowship with God.

For now, you are yearning to return to God but, sin is blocking the way. God does provide a Way for atonement!

2/2/2010 9:56:21 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
I don't expect you to understand or agree with the thinking of the Jewish people. Although Jesus himself was Jewish and intended on teaching his brothers, apparently, the people he effected the most were the people of the other nations; and although he did teach them many important facets of God and His will, he certainly was not responsible for the changes and distortions that fell into the NT.
I believe that Jesus might have been connected with Joseph for a few reasons that seem to point that way.
1) His name was Yeshua which is close to Yehoshua; and I understand that Jesus is actually a Greek name that was the translation of Yehoshua (please correct me if that is wrong).
Our Yehoshua, who was the leader of Israel after Moses, actually descended from Joseph.
I understand that people claim that Jesus had a father named Joseph. This may be a clue or hint from God that Jesus may have the soul of the Mashiach of Joseph; although this is certainly no concrete proof to anything.
2) I believe that the brothers of Joseph attempted to kill him after they heard his dream claiming that the sun moon and stars will bow to him, because this sounded to them like Joseph was claiming to be God and/or claiming to be the Mashiach. They accused him of the same thing that the Jews later accused Jesus of; That Jesus, they thought, was claiming to be God.
Both the brothers of Joseph and The Jews that accused Jesus, were wrong in their accusations. Joseph and Jesus were not claiming to be God, rather they were conveying the message that they understood God wanted the people to hear; which was, that the all people were supposed to respect and honer them above all other people and follow their teachings about Gods' will.
3) The brothers put Joseph in the pit and when Reuven returned , he found him missing. Similar to Jesus who was put in the pit (after death) and later found missing.
4) The brothers used blood from a goat to trick their father about the death of Joseph. I believe that this may be the reason why the Christians became so entrenched with their thought about Jesus being a lamb and his blood being like a sacrifice; This would make sense if Jesus had the soul of Joseph. In other words when the brothers said to Jacob, "see if you recognize the blood of Joseph on his clothing", they actually considered the blood of the goat, to be the blood of Joseph; They were considering Joseph to be the goat.
5) Another thing that the blood from the goat may have caused, was the punishment to the people of Israel by those who believe in Jesus through accusations such as blood libels and through the crusaders.
If Jesus had the soul of Joseph then it makes sense why accusations should be made through blood;because, just like the brothers used blood to trick Jacob, the Jews in turn, were tricked and punished by blood.
6) If in fact Jesus had the soul of Joseph/Mashiach then it would explain why God manipulated so many many people to believe that he will return to redeem the world. As I explained, the dream of Joseph, was the will of God, that all would bow in respect to him. Although he is not God, it was the will of God that Joseph be respected above all humans, and even the mashiach from Kind David must respect the Mashiach from Joseph.
Therefore, when we finally all realize the truth about Joseph, then we will unanimously accept him when he comes. Those who believe in Jesus will accept him because they will understand that he is the one they were waiting for all along, the one with this same soul of Jesus.
The Jew will also accept him because they will see in him the soul of Mashiach from Joseph.
Even the Jews have to realize this truth about Joseph being the one that God wants, to receive the most respect. Most Jews mistakenly think that the Mashiach from David is the one who will receive the most respect. That is a mistake which began from the thinking of the brothers who wanted to kill Joseph due to his dreams.
So, the whole world is in for a shock, but the whole world will be able to accept him when he comes because he fits into the plan of God from beginning to end.

You may think this is weird for me to think this way, but so many things together pointing this way, just can't be a coincidence.

2/2/2010 12:36:43 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Joseph's dream did become reality. When he was exalted as a ruler in Egypt, his brothers humbly bowed before him and asked for relief from the famine.

In the NT we have a scripture referring to how all will bow before Jesus. This verse quotes form Isaiah 45:

Philippians 2:9-10
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Your day will come Wolfson613, and I will be glad because when speaking about that day the Prophet Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 45:25
But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.

2/2/2010 1:17:01 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

The first dream of Joseph came true in Egypt, but the second dream is forever,just as the sun moon and stars are forever, and that did not happen yet.
This was a dream which will come true when the time is right.
I believe that Jesus may receive the respect that he may have deserved from the Jewish people; But I could only imagine it happening if he truly had the soul of Joesph.

2/2/2010 1:31:33 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009