I am creating this discussion to explore wolfson613's question "I would like to know where it says in the NT, that Jesus said clearly, that he will return in the future to save the whole world.
Perhaps that too has no basis even in the NT?"

1/17/2010 7:45:46 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

wolfson my friend,

Here are a few(not all) of Jesus' recorded words about his return.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

All of Matthew 24

Matthew 24:4-5, 23-24, 27, 44 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many…At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible…For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man…So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Matthew 25:31-46

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world… Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Luke 12:40

You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Luke 21:5-28

Luke 21:8, 22, 27-28 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them…For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written…At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

John 14:1-3

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Acts 1:6-11

So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them."Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

These should do as a starter. Peace be with you

1/17/2010 9:09:35 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Although, I am skeptical about the NT because it was not written by God or Prophets, rather by men who held highly of Jesus and would certainly want to paint a rosy picture of him; But when I see quotes that are consistent with what I already know to be true from the OT, then I think it's safe to assume that Jesus taught correctly what he had learned himself from the OT.
These quotes above, about the words of Jesus himself, are perfectly consistent with the OT, if understood properly.
Jesus repeatedly refers to the Mashiach that will come in the future, as the son of man, and NOT God. This is as we already agree, that Jesus is not God, but rather the son of MAN.
Jesus also never says that the 'son of man' which will come in the future, will be me. He does not even attempt to give this impression.
"Many will come in my name", he says. The false ones will use his name; But this does not mean to imply that the real Mashiach is him.
Jesus knew as I explained before, that only God can and will decide, who and when the mashiach will come.
So all these quotes of the words spoken by Jesus himself, are a clear indication that in fact Jesus did NOT claim that he will return to be the Mashiach, but rather there will be a mashiach that will come.
As I mentioned before the real mashiach will have that special soul which belongs to him alone.
I do in fact suspect that this idea, that it will be Jesus himself returning as mashiach, has developed through a clear misunderstanding of the very words that Jesus himself spoke.

1/18/2010 5:43:24 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Acts 1:6-11 emphasis added

So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them."Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Now I know you question Jesus' resurrection; however the NT teaches us that the resurrected Jesus was taken bodily into Heaven. The soul of the messiah, as you call it, still inhabits the body of Jesus. Jesus will return in the clouds as stated above; Luke 21:27

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The soul of the messiah will not be born again into another, Jesus will come in the clouds with power and great glory. John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

I also understand that you question the validity of the NT because it was written by followers of Jesus; however, here are some testimonies of Jesus' teachings about his return as given through the history according to Luke in the book of Acts, the epistles (letters) of Paul and Peter, and Jesus' revelation given to John while he was exiled on the island of Patmos.
Acts 3:17-21

"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you-even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1Corinthians 1:7-9

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1Thessalonians 3:13

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

2Thessalonians 1:5-10

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

1 Timothy 6:12-15

Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own timeGod, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

1Peter 1:5-8

who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faithof greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by firemay be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

1Peter 1:13-16

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Revelation 1:5-7

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherto him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

I am sure you may rationalize that Jesus' followers misunderstood his teachings; however Jesus did say he will return and the men dress in white (believed to be angels (messengers) of God) said Jesus will return in the clouds. This fits the description Jesus gave concerning the Son of Man's return.

Again I agree with you that God has known from the beginning the name and person of the messiah, and I agree with you that God can send anybody to rebuild the temple and re-establish Israel.Jesus, through his complete and total obedience to God's will, has been granted the right to return again and fulfill that role of the messiah.

1/18/2010 10:42:07 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

If you notice- when Jesus speaks about the Mashiach he always refers to 'the son of man', and never says ''that's me''.
When his followers speak of the mashiach, they always assume, that's Jesus.
I ask you, if Jesus never said that he is the son of god who will return to reestablish the kingdom of David, then why do these followers make this claim.
I believe the answer is that they could not imagine anyone else more fit to be Mashiach, so they decided that we don't need to hear it from jesus himself.
But the fact is that Jesus did not say it, because he knew that once he dies, God will send someone else in his place, with the same soul (assuming that the soul of Jesus was truly the soul of the Mashiach).
Concerning Jesus and his soul after he went to heaven, I don't believe that you could prove to me that he remains there with this original soul. This is a domain for God, to decide how He runs things there.
Even when Jesus is quoted as saying "I will come back", he does not say that the coming will be, to do the job of the Mashiach.
So, I conclude that Jesus knew the truth about the concept of Mashiach. It was his followers that deceived themselves due to their strong attachment to their teacher and guiding light, Jesus.
They made this claim, but not Jesus, and therefore there is really no reliable backing unless you choose to believe that the hopes and wants of these followers in the NT are the will of God; Which I certainly don't.
The Talmud also mentions many students who believed that their teacher would be the Mashiach; But there too it was only wishful thinking out loud!

1/19/2010 1:22:27 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

Christians are waiting for the return of Jesus:

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

You wondered about "The Son of Man" ruling:

Revelation 1:12-16
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Jesus said:

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Revelations 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

When Jesus returns, He will establish a New Jerusalem and a new order:

Revelation 21:2-4
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Also describing the New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple

Revelation 21:23
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

We know Jesus as the Lamb of God and the Light of the world:

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

This is the everlasting Kingdom foretold in:

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Revelations 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

1/19/2010 10:37:11 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Who wrote these books, Hebrews, Revelations,John etc.?
Why do think that you can rely on them to know what Jesus really taught?

1/19/2010 10:55:18 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

1Peter is a letter written by the apostle Peter, one of the twelve chosen disciples of Jesus, to the churches of christian Jews and Gentiles.

The gospel of John, the letters John 1, 2, and 3, as well as Revelation were written by, one of the original twelve disciples, the apostle John, the one "Jesus loved most".

The book of Acts was written by a physician and follower of Jesus named Luke (Luke also wrote the gospel bearing his name); it was written as an account of the original apostles actions, after Jesus' ascension to Heaven, to a fellow believer named Theophilus. Luke was a travelling companion of the apostle Paul and witnessed most of the history he recorded.

The letters 1Corinthians, 1Thessalonians, 2Thessalonians, and others were written by the apostle Paul to the various churches that he established among the scattered Jews and the Gentiles during his ministry. Paul was converted to christianity by a vision given him by Jesus in Heaven during the time of the remaining eleven disciples. 1 Timothy was also written by Paul to his student Timothy. Most of Paul's letters are the first and oldest documents concerning christianity.

The author of Hebrews is unknown as the letter does not give the authors name. Some believe Paul wrote it, others a man named Barnabas. It was written primarily for Jewish christians.

1/19/2010 12:16:06 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009