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Did Jesus Claim To Be God?


This thought that jesus is god was invented by his students.
He actually only taught what he was taught by his jewish rabbi:
there is one god, his children, and the holy spirit (meaning the teachings of the OT) that are one bond .
He never meant to imply that he is god himself.
The proof is, that this was the claim of those who worshiped the golden calf .They said that god has become this calf- they are one.
This angered god and He killed those guilty of this mistake.
Therefore it would be the same mistake for Jesus to have claimed that god and him are one.
Jesus said he never intended to change anything in the OT, therefore he certainly did not say he is god.
There is a common mistake that people make. They tend to idolize their teachers. This mistake went too far!
12/29/2009 4:47:49 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson,

Thanks for joining the site and for starting this discussion. If you have a moment, please take a look at this article:

http://delveintojesus.com/articles/20/Did-Jesus-Claim-to-be-the-Son-of-God.aspx

The conclusion of that article presupposes that the Gospel writers faithfully and accurately recorded Jesus' words, and that those words have be preserved for us through time (a very different discussion which we can have if you like), but given those two assumptions, it seems very clear that Jesus did claim to be much more than a simple teacher of the Jewish Law. A complete reading of the four Gospels from start to end would leave the reader with a distinct impression of someone who knew and proclaimed that He was much more than a teacher and mortal man.

There are many positions that one can take to argue against the divinity of Jesus, but the theory that He himself did not claim to be divine is probably one of the most difficult to defend, in my opinion.
12/29/2009 5:38:02 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Jesus would not have claimed anything more than ,he is the mashiach (massiah) because he was jewish and very aware that such a claim will anger god.
He never is quoted as saying "I am god the creator of the world, serve me and bow to me".
he only claims to be a loyal servant of god and wants people to follow his example. He is convinced that his teachings will help all serve god and fulfill gods' will.
It is true that the real mashiach will be on a higher level than all others because his soul will be a special soul. But all people have souls. and all souls are a part of god. But this does not mean that people are god. God has no form as we know and would never take on such a form. jesus knew these facts as all jews like him know. It is actually an insult to him, to accuse him of making such a non-jewish claim.
This idea that he came back after his death is also a misused idea.
I don't know if he did or not, but even if he did ,this proves nothing.
There are many recorded cases of people returning after death
Look in yechezkal (ezekial chapter 37), when he brings life back to the dried bones. These were real people that came back to life.
We don't call them god .And don't call the prophet who did it, god.
Abraham, and other prophets were thrown into fire and did not get burned. We don't say they were god.
If jesus would have made such a claim, then we should only conclude that he was a false prophet as so many others who preceded him.
I would rather believe that his students got carried away with their love for their teacher, and blew things way out of proportion.
12/29/2009 6:55:17 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Welcome wolfson613,
Reading your posts brought to mind a few scriptures which may be helpful.
John 10:29-36
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'(Psalm 82)? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken - what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent him into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said "I am God's Son'?NIV
We know that Jesus was not claiming to be God but God's Son. Compare John 10:30 to John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.NIV
What Jesus is plainly saying here is that we all are one with the Father. Not equal but one.
John 17:20-23
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me NIV
I quote John in this post because I believe that John 1:1-5 is one of the ways you think
his students got carried away with their love for their teacher, and blew things way out of proportion.
Given the scriptures I have quoted above it seems clear that John was not trying to make Jesus God.
Perhaps you can give examples from scripture that you feel show the disciples proclaiming Jesus as God.
12/29/2009 9:55:51 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Jesus was not claiming to be anything more than what he said.
Since the title of elohim (which is only a description of certain attributes of god -but not god himself) was attached to those who were on a high level of worship, therefore Jesus felt comfortable to consider himself worthy of that title.
In addition he felt that he was even closer to god than others because in his opinion he had surpassed all others in his generation in the true worship of god. Therefore he took the liberty of calling himself 'the son' (as if to say that he was much more special and close to god than anyone else).
This was not to be taken literally but descriptively.
All jews say that we are the children of god, and that we are 'one' with god. But no one means to imply that we are god or even god-like. Except that we know we have been created as an image of god.
Our goal in this world is to better ourselves and help others as well to fulfill gods' will.
Jesus perhaps allowed people to believe that he was implying more than he said, and some began to call him a god or son.
This is what troubled the Jews. The fact that he was allowing such a mistake to enter the minds of these people.
These implications that you find in your NT, to claim that he called himself god, were written by followers who took his words literally (probably because they believed these things on their own). They wrote it down to convey the message that they wanted the people to believe.
The proof that jesus did not think this way is that he never says "worship me as a god and bow to me, since I am your lord".
But, sadly enough, he did suffer his death as a punishment for allowing people to be misled into thinking that he was saying more than he was.
If he was truly a mashiach/massiah, he should have approached the rabbis with his proof and allowed them to approve this fact.
Instead he attempted to force his rule on them and they realized that there is something wrong. This is why they apposed of him so strongly.
The Jewish tradition says that the real massiah won't be killed.
Therefore jesus could not have been mashiach, although, he probably meant well.
12/30/2009 1:18:59 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

These implications that you find in your NT, to claim that he called himself god, were written by followers who took his words literally (probably because they believed these things on their own). They wrote it down to convey the message that they wanted the people to believe.
Dear friend, the scripture I quoted above shows that John, at least, did not think Jesus was God. I do not know of any NT scripture which shows that his disciples thought of him as God; if you know of any please share.
Many followers of Jesus today believe in the Trinity doctrine (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit), one God three facets; I do not. The Old and New testaments do not mention or support the Trinity doctrine; it is a doctrine of man not God. Jesus' students did not create that doctrine, it came later.
That being said, what I do believe and scripture supports is that Jesus is the Word; Jesus is the Son of God; Jesus is the Anointed One (Messiah); Jesus is the Lamb of God; and the resurrected Jesus is seated at the right of God and has been given all authority through Him. Note that authority does not mean Jesus is to be feared, worshiped, or praised; those things are for God and God alone.
May the peace of God be with you.
12/30/2009 9:54:58 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I would say that jesus was sure that his word was the word of god. But the word of god is spoken by anyone who sincerely tries to serve him, and this includes many people.
We are all children of god, in the sense that he created us and we are meant to follow his will.
Every person that died because of their belief in god ,was a lamb who has been offered to god.
Jesus may have been a possible massiah, but was not successful in completing the job, because he was not accepted by his own people as well as others.
If he sits next to god, nobody knows at this point, it's all wishful thinking.
If he came back to life, this proves nothing, as I mentioned in the post above.
I have serious doubts that he did come back after death for the following reasons:
1) The romans who worshipped other gods should have responded by making him their god. Instead they continued to kill the followers of jesus. Probably because they did not believe that he returned after death.
2) All the reports that he returned after death came only from his loyal students who certainly wanted to believe that it happened.
Why don't we find many people including the Romans, to have recorded this amazing happening?
3) Why did he only stay 40 days after coming back to life? That would have been the perfect time to convince everyone that he was the massiah or whatever.
The massiah of the end of days, does not have to be jesus at all. god can send whoever he desires.
Please quote any part of the OT that supports any claim about jesus and I will show you how this is an incorrect reading or even a distortion.
I believe that jesus sincerely meant well, but he failed in his mission.
The real massiah won't fail because he is truly sent by god.
I wish you well and hope that you continue to delve.
1/1/2010 4:28:08 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson613,
Please quote any part of the OT that supports any claim about jesus and I will show you how this is an incorrect reading or even a distortion.
Bless you my friend, I won't argue whether Jesus fit and/or fulfilled the prophecies given in the Old Testament. It is clear that you believe He does not and that I believe He does. If you believe that the scriptures which clearly point to Jesus are incorrect or a distortion my quoting them will serve no purpose.

My friend, ask yourself what brought you to this website. Do you truly wish to delve into Jesus, if so this website can help you. Or are you trying to justify your believe against Him and convert those who believe Jesus is the Christ? Your motives are your own but God's purpose for them may be far from what you intend.
I believe that jesus sincerely meant well, but he failed in his mission.
The real massiah won't fail because he is truly sent by god.
Bless you again my friend, part of Jesus' mission as messiah was to be sacrificed for us and raised from death to an incorruptible human body; the first fruits of God's kingdom for the new earth. He did not fail doing this but triumphed completely.

You can believe this to be true or not; God's gift of free will gives us that authority in our lives. I pray that God's will for you, His purpose for your life, is understood by all it affects.

May the peace of God be with you.
1/2/2010 12:32:37 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I came to this website to delve into the truth, and only the truth about what gods' will is, because that is what concerns me most.
If the truth leads me to believe that jesus was not the massiah then let it be.
I believe that the truth can only come from the OT because that was god given and if you have any source to support jesus then it should come from there.
I see no basis of proof from the NT, because it only has value if I first believe that jesus was sent by god and that has no proof from the OT.
As I posted above, I don't believe that he was supposed to die such a cruel and embarrassing death for any ones sins, and I don't see it logical to believe that he came back after death, especially since there is no trace of evidence other that the writings of his followers.
1/2/2010 2:22:19 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson613,

I am glad to hear that you seek the truth and wish to know God's will; that is my life as well. So that we can understand our religious orientations better I will say that I was raised Baptist but through my study of the Bible I now consider myself non-denominational. In what religious tradition were you raised and what religion do you now believe?

May I assume from your statement:
If the truth leads me to believe that jesus was not the massiah then let it be.
that you will believe that Jesus is the messiah if you are given what you consider truth from the Old Testament.

Also in relation to your statement:
I don't see it logical to believe that he came back after death, especially since there is no trace of evidence other that the writings of his followers.
Do you believe that God through Elijah raised the widows son back to life? 1 Kings 17:17-22 There is no trace of this happening elsewhere.

Do you believe that God through Ezekiel raised the valley of bones to life? Ezekiel 37:1-11 There is no trace of this grand scale mass resurrection elsewhere.

Do you believe that God through Moses parted the Red Sea allowing the Hebrews to pass safely and then closed the waters back destroying the army of Egypt. Exodus 14:21-28 Why is there no record of this event outside of the Bible? Surely Egypt would have something, some record.

You see my friend it is easy to cast doubt in this day and age. None of us today witnessed Moses parting the Red Sea, the widow's son raised from the dead, the wall of Jericho fall from shouting, Sodom and Gomorrah burned by the fire of God to ash. We have only the word of the writer that these things happened; no outside proof. We choose to consider these stories truth through faith. Faith that God had men record and preserve these writings truthfully. It is the same with the Old Testament as with the New; it requires faith not proof.

That being said my friend may I suggest that you first consider Isaiah 53 as a reference to Jesus. We can discuss what you think about.
1/2/2010 10:58:54 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I will begin by stating that faith does not mean 'following blindly and foolishly'.
Our faith in the OT is based on a tradition that has been passed down through the ages, that it (the OT) was given by god and his prophets. Therefore we believe in it as we believe in god himself.The NT was recorded not by prophets, but by faithful followers, of a man they were sold on. We have no indication that the NT is the message of god. Faith in the OT is not comparable to faith in the NT.
With that said, I will respond to your reference from Isaiah 53.
This paragraph is very likely referring to the massiah (although it may be referring to 'The chosen people'). I see no proof that it refers to jesus. You could apply the same words to many people that have suffered for their belief in god, throughout history.
If one has already decided that jesus is the massiah, then of course he will point to this passage as proof to what he already assumes to be obvious.
That won't help me find the truth, because it is a dishonest approach.
If I wanted to follow this approach, then I could decide that this passage is refering to me or you. First, I would decide that I have suffered for my belief in god and then I would use this passage as proof.
Perhaps jesus used this same method when teaching his students that it refers to him, before he was walked to his death.
Concerning the matter that no trace of evidence is found for the resurrection of jesus, I will respond as follows to your references in the OT.
In fact, if the OT was written by men who were not prophets, then I would indeed question these events as well. But since they have been recorded by prophets, there is no room to question.
In addition, since the Romans had just finished killing jesus after accusing him of lies, had he returned three days later, I believe they would have bowed to him just as Nevuchadnetzar bowed to Daniel after hearing the interpretation of his dream. In addition they certainly would have recorded the event!
So I remain without any source in the OT that Jesus was anything other that a sincere person who got caught up with his love for god.
1/3/2010 10:35:28 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson613,

Our faith in the OT is based on a tradition that has been passed down through the ages, that it (the OT) was given by god and his prophets. Therefore we believe in it as we believe in god himself.The NT was recorded not by prophets, but by faithful followers, of a man they were sold on. We have no indication that the NT is the message of god. Faith in the OT is not comparable to faith in the NT.
Dear friend, every claim you made here to support the OT I can claim as proof of the NT and every claim you made against the NT I can make against the OT. We cannot prove that any book in the Bible was written by God, a prophet, or a supporter of God and/or Jesus; we have only our traditions, elders, and the Bible to testify to these things. You cannot prove that any of the OT writers were prophets. You can no more prove to a non-believer that Ezekiel was a prophet, than I can prove John was a disciple. As I stated: it is not about proof it is about faith.

Once more wolfson ask yourself why you came to this website; you say it was to learn the truth about God's will, but I am not so sure my friend. Your intentions seem to suggest you came here to prove to us (or to yourself) that Jesus was a false messiah.

Concerning your response to Isaiah 53, bless you my friend that is why I stated:
If you believe that the scriptures which clearly point to Jesus are incorrect or a distortion my quoting them will serve no purpose.
The question is do the statements in Isaiah 53 apply to Jesus. It is true that this particular chapter could apply to anyone, but we know it applies to the messiah. Can you agree with me that Jesus fits this description of the messiah? If so may I suggest another scripture passage?


1/3/2010 1:59:41 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

It seems clear to me that your faith begins and ends with the NT. The OT for you is just something of the past that can be brushed off with a simple gesture or token response that carries little weight.
And since my faith begins and ends with the OT, perhaps we share very little in common.
True we both believe in god and search for the truth of his will, but our source material are at different ends of the universe.
I have no need what so ever to believe in Jesus, as long as I see no indication that god sent him. The mere fact that some passages in scripture could possibly apply to his life will not 'sell me' on him.
The claim about him, that he is the massiah, assumes that he descends from king David. This is also questionable. In addition, Jesus and his life of troubles, seem to me, to parallel much more the life of Joseph who was attacked by his brothers and sold to slavery, with the hopes that this would bring the end for him.
If you think there is a purpose, feel free to continue to quote from the OT. But please don't try to sell me on a product that I as of yet have no special need for.
1/4/2010 12:28:48 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Dear friend,

My faith begins with Genesis and goes all the way to Revelation. For me, some of the most gripping, poetic and faith strengthening scriptures come from the OT. Belief in the OT is the only way to believe, justify, and understand the NT; they are not at different ends of the universe. Without the Old the New is nothing.

wolfson, you seem to have many biases against believers in Jesus and unfortunately you have attached many of those biases to me. I hope, through this discussion and our common love for God, we can learn more about each other and get past these biases. There are no coincidences, God's will is moving through this discussion and hopefully it will be for our mutual benefit.

I won't quote any more OT scriptures concerning Jesus unless you want me to. Perhaps it will be beneficial if you present scriptural reasons that Jesus is not the messiah.
1/4/2010 9:50:30 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I have nothing against you or those who believe in Jesus. Although, I do think that the importance that is attached to him is a mistake and baseless for several reasons.
Firstly, let's look at the scripture that states "Fathers will not die because of their son's sins and sons will not die for their fathers sins, rather a man will only die for his own sins" (Deuteronomy 24.16).
The belief that Jesus died for our sins is a contradiction to this promise in the OT. In addition, according to this scripture, the assumption must be that Jesus died for his own sins. So. in fact, jesus was not free of guilt, as so many want to believe.
Let's move on to (Deuteronomy 13.2-6) the discussion of false prophets. Here we learn clearly that even though the false prophet succeeds in performing miracles, god tells us that we should not follow him. God has allowed his miracles to succeed only to test our true faith in god, to see if we stay steadfast in our ways of serving god only.
So perhaps we should assume that Jesus fits in to this section of the scripture just as well as any other. Maybe we should assume that his miracles were a test to see if we will fall for his story of being the massiah or even being god himself, as so many others believe.
What about (Deuteronomy 28.1-14) all the blessings that are promised to those faithful servants that serve god without sin. The promises that no harm will come to the clean soul, and all enemies will run from him. I don't think we should conclude that god is a liar when he promised us these blessings. My conclusion is that jesus must have not been worthy of these blessings or else he would have succeeded in chasing his enemies, and would not have died or suffered.
I'll let you respond before I continue, with reasons to wonder, how jesus could fit the massiah role.
If we admit that the OT is 'the only way to believe', then these questions must be answered honestly.

1/4/2010 1:23:49 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

I'd like to pop in with a question on the OT, from Genesis 1:26. I'd like your opinion on whom God was talking to when He said, "Let us make..."?
1/4/2010 5:27:47 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

wolfson613,

Thank you for continuing the discussion my friend.

Firstly, let's look at the scripture that states "Fathers will not die because of their son's sins and sons will not die for their fathers sins, rather a man will only die for his own sins" (numbers 24.16).
Perhaps our Bibles are different or may be you quoted the wrong scripture. My Bible has Numbers 24:16 as:
the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened
Perhaps you were thinking of Ezekiel 18:20? I am not sure, if so we can discuss it.

Let's move on to (numbers 13.2-6) the discussion of false prophets. Here we learn clearly that even though the false prophet succeeds in performing miracles, god tells us that we should not follow him.
Once again we have a mix up, Numbers 13:2-6:
Send some men to explore the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. From each ancestral tribe send one of its leaders." So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. These are their names: from the tribe of Reuben, Shammua son of Zaccur; from the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat son of Hori; from the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Jephunneh;
I know many scriptures in the NT that discuss false prophets performing miracles; I do not know any in the OT, so I am unable to suggest an alternate scripture.

What about (numbers 28.1-14) all the blessings that are promised to those faithful servants that serve god without sin. The promises that no harm will come to the clean soul, and all enemies will run from him.
Same problem here; Numbers 28:1-14 too long to quote here but you can read it by clicking on the hyperlink.

If our Bibles are different may be you could suggest an online version of your Bible that I can utilize during our discussion. If you got your scriptures mixed up then I can wait to continue our discussion until you find the right scriptures.

God's peace be with you wolfson613.
1/4/2010 9:41:50 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I'm sorry for the error. I have corrected the mistake in the post above. Each time I refer to Numbers, I actually meant Deuteronomy.
I'm not so familiar with the English names attached to these books, I am more familiar with the Hebrew.
In response to the post of mrspiggy, God was speaking to his angels that he created. You will find another example of this in (First Kings 22.19-23). He consults with his angels only to set an example for us of humility, but all decisions are final by him alone.
1/5/2010 1:06:39 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson613,

No problem my friend; to help I found a website which has the Hebrew and English titles to the OT: http://www.hareidi.org/bible/. I will try to give the Hebrew titles when I refer to scripture to help you, and if it is easier for you to refer to the Hebrew title I can look it up instead. Also it would be helpful if you could give me a website that has your translation of the OT in English, that way we can see the text through combining your translation with mine. When you make a translation of your Bible available to me we will tackle these scriptures one by one.

Peace be with you.
1/5/2010 8:54:52 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Thank you. This site you found seems to be fairly accurate in their translation.
Besides those references that I already listed, please see also Ezekiel chapter 18 (the whole chapter), but the focus is on sentences 20,26-28.
It seems clear to me that god is not happy with the accusation ,that he would cause suffering or punish anyone ,for the sins of another.
This goes directly against the whole concept that Jesus died for our sins. God would never do such a thing.
I wish you well.
1/5/2010 9:30:16 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

I would like to start out by saying that all scripture given (unless otherwise marked) is hyperlinked to BibleGateway.com. Any Hebrew words I use come from the Hebrew to English dictionary contained in The Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance; as such any translations I make will of course be from the NIV. If I make any mistakes with Hebrew just let me know. All right my friend lets get cracking; you stated:
The belief that Jesus died for our sins is a contradiction to this promise in the OT. In addition, according to this scripture, the assumption must be that Jesus died for his own sins.
(Devarim 24.16)http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Deuteronomy24.htm16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16
(Shemot 32.30-33)Exodus 32:30-33 (Yechezchial 18.4)Ezekiel 18:4, (Yechezchial 18.20,26-28)Ezekiel 18:20,26-28 and (Yermiyah 31.29-30)Jeremiah 31:29-30 each give a similar message. Let us explore the meaning of Devarim 24.16.

The variations in our translations are minimal and compatible, so we can set aside translation differences. First lets look at the context we find the scripture in; for as you know, scripture outside of context can be deceiving.

If we look at Devarim 24 we find that it is a list of miscellaneous laws given to the Hebrew people for governing themselves. A Hebrew was not to put a son to death for his fathers sins or the father for the sons, each will be put to death for his own sins. There are many sins listed in the law that the penalty is death and the Hebrews carried out that punishment as God prescribed them to; please note God Himself rarely carried out the punishment in this re-guard. This was a law given to the Hebrews for the Hebrews. It was also not always obeyed as in (Yehoshua 7.19-25)Joshua 7:19-25.

Now let us explore whether Devarim 24.16 applies to God. First we will look in Shemot. (Shemot 20.5)http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Exodus20.htm5
thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
Exodus 20:5

Also lets look at the consequences of Davids adultery.
(Shmuel B 12.13-16,18)http://www.hareidi.org/bible/2_Samuel12.htm13
And David said unto Nathan: 'I have sinned against HaShem.' And Nathan said unto David: 'The HaShem also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast greatly blasphemed the enemies of HaShem, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.' And Nathan departed unto his house. And HaShem struck the child that Uriah's wife bore unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought G-d for the child; and David fasted, and as often as he went in, he lay all night upon the earth..And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.
2 Samuel 12:13-16,18
We see here in these scriptures that while the Hebrews cannot defer punishment for sin to another, God can. The son was killed for the fathers sins.

Well wolfson I am off to bed. I will go through (Devarim 13.2-6) the discussion of false prophets tomorrow. Sleep well my friend.
1/5/2010 10:17:36 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Before I respond to your last post, I want to clarify what I believe and do not believe about Jesus.
Firstly, He is not God or even 'the' son of god, like others claim, in belief that he created the world and is all powerful. Not only is the idea silly since there were many, much more likely candidates, if the concept of 'man being god' were possible. But, the reason why he can't be god is because god does not even allow us to think this thought. To make this claim is no different than the claim that the golden calf was god. We all know how angry god was for that sin. He was angry because, to serve anything in the creation, is idol worship. This includes serving a man and thinking that god is so small as to put himself in that body. The notion is quite insulting to god and deserving of punishment.
Next, I don't believe that he died for our sins. This is the topic we've begun to discuss. The other sources that you referred to in Ezekiel and Jeremiah are clearly speaking about god when it says that god does not punish others for the sins of another. Soon I will respond to your questions from the other sources that seem to contradict this fact.
Even if there were no proofs from scripture to this concept and promise of god that he will never punish anyone other than the sinner himself, I would still remain that jesus died for his own sins. The reason seems obvious to me. If god wanted jesus to be his sacrifice for all mankind, then why would he take his life in such a mean cold uncaring, brutal, degrading and embarrassing way. Jesus did not go through all that from love of god toward him and all mankind. God knows how to ask for a human sacrifice, as we know from Abraham who was told to offer his son to god. It was done in a respectful way, in private and with love. And even so, god told him at the last moment that it is unnecessary because he sees the Faithfulness of Abraham from everything he did up to that final moment.
My conclusion is that Jesus died in such a way because of his own sins.
I don't believe there was a resurrection as I mentioned already, there is too much missing in the history records, and especially from the roman reaction that followed. They would not have killed more followers but rather become themselves believers.
I don't believe that Jesus was the massiah because the real massiah will complete the job the first time around. Perhaps he had potential to be a massiah but he died on the way.
Even so, I do believe that Jesus did serve an important function for god. He did teach his followers and the future generations allot of what is written in the Bible (meaning the OT). He made the world know and understand about God and his will. In many ways he has succeeded in preparing the world for the coming of the real massiah.
This is certainly to his credit, and I do believe for this he does receive his reward in heaven.
I also believe that perhaps he was judged unfairly and largely misunderstood. He probably cared so much about gods will that he stepped out of his bounds and stepped on the toes of his elders in pursuit of what he believed to be the 'way of god'. Perhaps this angered the rabbis and they judged him harshly. Perhaps this was in some ways a repeat of the story with Joseph and his brothers. But even Joseph was not guilt free, and also suffered for his own sins.
I will continue to respond to your last post in my next post.
I wish you well.
1/6/2010 5:40:59 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

My response to the questions you've raised in your previous post is the following:
True that in Devarim the context refers to the judges of the people. However, it likewise applies to god himself. This becomes obvious after seeing the other sources you quoted in Ezekial and Jeramiah. From those other sources it is clear that god is even insulted with such an accusation that he would punish anyone other than the sinner himself.
(I don't know why you think that god rarely carried out the punishments that he himself prescribed. True ,god is patient and merciful but he never let's anyone go free unless they repent properly. In fact, when accidents happen and people get hurt, this is from god who is carrying out the punishment.)
I see three questions that you have on this truth; that god will not punish others for sins they haven't done.
First,concerning the quote from Exodus 20:5, which implies that god does punish children for the sins of their fathers, up to four generations.
The meaning here is; Only when the children continue to sin like their fathers sinned, they get punished because god remembers the sins of their fathers. Until four generations, god still expects the children to know that the sin they do, is a sin. After four generations, god understands that the children can't be held responsible for even their own sins because they had no example to learn from, and know that it's a sin.
So in fact even in the four generations, god only punishes the sinners themselves.
In Joshua, the children were killed because of their own guilt, since they knew about their fathers sin and kept it a secret. This alone was a serious sin and in this situation punishable with death.
Concerning the child of King David who died from the sin of his father; since the child was a product of the seed that caused the sin, the child was considered to be part of the sin and died as a result. Even though the child had no choice in the matter, he was a sinful seed and god would not allow him to live. This is not considered to be punished at all; not for his fathers sin or for his own.
I think that your thinking on this issue is influenced by your being convinced that Jesus was the exception to all the rules. But he was in fact subject to all the rules that the OT teaches us.
1/6/2010 7:09:33 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson,

Thank you for clarifying Shemot 20.5(Exodus 20:5), your statements concerning it were insightful and keeping with the word of God.

As to Yehoshua 7.19-25(Joshua 7:19-25) I am afraid that you are putting words into God's mouth. There is nothing in this scripture (or elsewhere in scripture) that states the family was aware of what the father did; it is an assumption that you (or your traditions) are making to justify Yehoshua's actions since they clearly opposed the law.

Concerning the child of King David who died from the sin of his father; since the child was a product of the seed that caused the sin, the child was considered to be part of the sin and died as a result. Even though the child had no choice in the matter, he was a sinful seed and god would not allow him to live. This is not considered to be punished at all; not for his fathers sin or for his own.
Once more you are putting words into God's mouth, there is nothing in the OT that supports your claim here.
Shmuel B 12.14(2 Samuel 12:14)
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast greatly blasphemed the enemies of HaShem, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
This scripture is clear, the child did not die for being the seed of the sin but because the sin of David greatly blasphemed the enemies of HaShem. If your traditions and teachings go against the word of God you must question them my friend.

I think that your thinking on this issue is influenced by your being convinced that Jesus was the exception to all the rules. But he was in fact subject to all the rules that the OT teaches us.
I agree, Jesus was subject to all the rules in the OT and taught his followers so, I do not believe that he had any exception to the rules.

Your responses above suggest that you place more importance on what you were taught than what God through the OT actually says. We will leave Devarim 13.2-6 for another post.

Peace be with you my friend.
1/6/2010 12:15:59 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

After we saw what is written in those quotes from Ezekial and Jerimiah, there is no room to doubt; God does not transfer punishment from one person to the next. This is a clear message from god, that is meant to make us realize that the claim about Jesus cannot be true.
Concerning the child of King David, we do have a different reading of the scripture. My reading is as follows: "However, you have profaned the name of god with this thing [that you have done]. In addition, the son that has been born to you, will surely die".
According to my reading, there are two separate statements being said. Thereby, the son dying is not the result of the sin of profaning the name of god. In fact there is no explanation offered in the scripture why the son had to die. But, the explanation that I offered is acceptable to answer the apparent contradiction between this and Ezekial.
Concerning Joshua, we must first ask ourselves; Why in the world would the children be killed together with the sinner (their father) if in fact they were totally innocent? Would there be any logic or justice to kill them?
So in fact we are forced to understand that they were in fact guilty in some way on their own and deserving of death through their own guilt.
There has been a suggestion that in fact the children were not killed at all, and they were only brought along to witness the death of their father in order to instill in them a fear of sin. In fact the scripture does not say clearly that all present were killed, rather it states "They were burnt and they were stoned". Possibly the "they" did not include the children at all.
In any case the message that god gives us through Ezekial is clear and leaves no room for doubt or exceptions to the rule; He does not transfer sins or punishments from one to another.

1/6/2010 2:32:10 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

wolfson my friend you are forgetting Yisheyah 53

Yisheyah 53.4-12 http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah53.htm1
Emphasis added
Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due. And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.' Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand: Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:4-12
Now whether or not you agree that this scripture is about Jesus, what is clear is that God through Yisheyah is saying that someone had, is, or will take the sins of the people onto themself and pay the penalty for those sins, all of them.

Sorry wolfson, I've got to cut this short. I will continue this line of discussion tomorrow. Sleep well my friend.
1/6/2010 9:50:41 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Yes, your question is very good and demands an honest answer.
In order to understand that there is no contradiction between Yechezkal and Yisheyah, I will have to give in a bit and clarify my position.
In Yechezkel (18) we learn that the sinner is punished for his own sins and the good person who serves god faithfully receives reward without punishment.
Yisheyah introduces a new arrangement where the Holy person who is clean from sin and above others,in the service of god, becomes responsible for the sins of others and receives punishment as if the sins are his own.
This can happen when this holy person becomes a a strong influence on others; People are listening to his word and following his direction. At this point he becomes a co-signer to the debt of sins that others commit. God can now choose to collect the debt from the sinner or from the co-signer as if the debt (or sins) belong to him as well.
The holy person chooses to become this co-signer with the knowledge of the responsibility attached to it; And he does this for lofty reasons in serving god.
Does Jesus fit this description?
This depends on what he actually did in his lifetime. Those who believe in Jesus, are convinced that he was holy, and guilt free.
How can we know the truth about this? What did he really teach his followers?
If he taught them that he is god, or the son of god, then I would have to conclude that he was actually a fake and a sinner; Because as I explained earlier, this is considered idol worship and forbidden by god. In this case Jesus would not fit with the Yisheyah description.
If he claimed to be a prophet and/or massiah but truly wasn't, then again he is not the holy person some believe.
If he simply attempted to teach the OT properly as he claimed (from what I understand), then I am left with some questions.
Why do so many people claim that he is god, and claim that he himself made this claim? Did such thinking come from him or was this a distortion that resulted from the writings of his so-called followers?
The Jewish Sanhedrin was apparently of the opinion that jesus himself caused this confusion, and held him accountable. They held the opinion that he was deserving of death for being the deliberate cause of idol worship.
If in fact the accusations were false and Jesus was guilt-free, then certainly he would fit this description of Yisheyah. But we can't really know this today for certain, because there are different versions of the story. Jesus could have been very Holy or a big sinner.
Again, I see a strong parallel between the true identity of Jesus and the story of Joseph and his brothers.The brothers also claimed that Joseph was a sinner and a dreamer.
But there is a big difference between the two. Joseph became a ruler in Egypt, Jesus was tortured do death.
This whole discussion is about jesus on a personal level. But this concept that one must believe in him in order to be saved, is not an OT concept and I must reject it as well. God requires people to believe in him ,and not people to believe in people for their salvation.
I'll wait for your response.
1/7/2010 5:44:53 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Hi Wolfson613,

I've enjoyed reading your posts! The points you raise are valid concerns regarding the claim we Christians make about the divinity of Jesus.

We should be able to provide you with reasonable explanations. However, sometimes I think our perspectives are so dissimilar that communication is easily hampered.

I say that the Old Testament is ALL about Jesus!

Of course, I don't expect you to find Jesus in the OT. You can astutely find multiple references that rule out Jesus from being qualified to be the Messiah.

Scholarly Jews, among many others, have been coming to your same conclusions for centuries. This is because you take Jesus - as far as you know Him to be - and hold that man up to the OT - and find Him to be woefully inadequate, and even blasphemous.

Several years ago, I tried reading the OT a couple of times and never got very far. Now, that I know Jesus more, I read the OT and see Him everywhere.

God is that brilliant!

He can produce the most artistic book with numerous linguistically intriguing features (which I'm told are particularly beautiful in Hebrew). And then, God intricately weaves what may appear to be a hidden subtext but, what is really the arch-text, into this living masterpiece!

Jesus is all over the story of Abraham; particularly in the account you referenced about Abram's obedient attitude concerning the sacrifice of Isaac. Jesus is the Sabbath rest. The Temple design depicts Jesus. The entire law points to Jesus.

Jesus is absolutely in the verses you quoted about a man cannot die for another's sins. Although, Christians would also cite passages concerning the Passover Lamb and the Scape Goat to illustrate the concept of Jesus atoning for our sins.

The OLD Testament is all about Jesus! You know the OT well but, we also wish you could see the beautiful threads of Jesus there too - however, you can't - unless you come to know Jesus.

You may think we're all hopelessly mired in mass hysteria for believing that the OT is all about Jesus but, the concerns you raise just drive us further into our belief.

Wolfson613, you obviously do not have to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

However, to actually REJECT our Jesus as the Messiah, in reality - you must first accurately know what you are rejecting.

For example:

I do not have to accept the belief of some that Washington, D.C is the most important city in the US.

But, I cannot reasonably conclude that Washington is not the most important city because it is the largest city in the country.

The statement that Washington D.C is the largest city is not true - therefore, I cannot accurately reject a claim about that city by using that statement.

You can certainly prove that your version of Jesus could not possibly be the Messiah.

However, if you desire to conclusively prove that Jesus is not the Messiah - you must first really know the truth about Jesus.

You have not demonstrated you know much about Jesus - yet.

Are you interested in learning more about Jesus?


1/7/2010 12:41:28 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I would love to learn about Jesus if you could do it directly from the text of the OT.
If you need to refer to the NT to find all the glory in him, then I won't be able to believe too much, because I will assume that it is mostly propaganda for him.
You know that if you first paint a grand picture of him and then look into the OT, of course you will find him everywhere. But that would not be an honest approach.
My question is what proof do we have that the man who was tortured to death was actually a good man and an innocent man that did us the great kindness of suffering instead of us.
This we can't find in the OT.
I am also curious to know what is the belief that you have as to what happens when he returns the next time. Does he take part in the building of the third and final temple? Will he follow the commands of the OT? Will the Jewish people still be considered the chosen people? Does he return as a human? Will he die again? Will he be the same person that he was the first time around?
1/7/2010 2:22:42 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

I'm really enthused by your response!

I'd love to actually paint you a picture of Jesus from only the OT - I consider my self to be artistically inclined but alas, I'm not much of a teacher so I'm sure my words alone would be inadequate.

Do you handle the issue of learning about Jesus, the same way you treat learning about every other subject from the OT?

Do you, or would you, ask God to help you to understand His will for you regarding knowing the truth - what ever that may be - about Jesus and for God's help in telling others what He wants you to know about Jesus?

At opposite extremes of the spectrum, you and I can start with our pre-conceived notions about Jesus. But, we can enjoy the sharing of the same approach of going to God and asking Him to reveal His truth - despite our current convictions.

In no way do I think I could go head-to-head with those heady Rabbis who have already shot down every Christian argument throughout the ages. However, my strongest hope would be some help from God, if He desires you to see any of my points. And, if it's God's will that I grow in my understanding, I'd be pleased with that too.

I'll be praying for us! How about you?

1/7/2010 3:05:33 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Also:

I have no problem with you being skeptical about the NT - it is the right position to start with if you really want to form a belief for, or against, the NT - rather than to just blindly accept or reject it.

However, you asked several questions - I think you gave me latitude to answer them first form the NT since you asked about my beliefs. I'll also attempt to find the OT references (later). My thoughts on your questions:

Does he take part in the building of the third and final temple?
Yes, He completely constructs not only the new Temple but also a New Jerusalem!

Will he follow the commands of the OT?
You're going to hammer me with this answer but, yes and no. He is the fulfillment of the law, so yes, but on the other hand, no, not as you'd expect. For example, since Jesus is our Passover Lamb, there is no need for animal sacrifices.

Will the Jewish people still be considered the chosen people?
Yes, if they accept Him as the Messiah, as will all people who trust in Him (I refer you to the book of Hosea).

Does he return as a human?
I suspect I may be straying from the orthodox position here - because I do not know the standard answer. However, my thought is that He returns fully God - only. I think many believe He is at once fully God and fully human forever. I have much to learn.

Will he die again?
No, in fact, after His Kingdom is established no one will ever die again!

Will he be the same person that he was the first time around?
Yes, contrary to my answer above, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We believe He always existed.

I'm sure I haven't answered your questions to your satisfaction, but I hope I responded to them all. I will continue to look for OT references to share.
1/7/2010 3:40:07 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Gentlemen,

Have you considered Isaiah 7:14?
1/7/2010 6:10:19 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hello again wolfson,

First I would like to respond to mrspiggy. Isaiah 7:14
Emphasis added
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
The Hebrew word used here is alma which means girl or young woman; it can (according to my concordance) mean virgin in certain context. In the Jewish scriptures it is translated literally.
Yisheyah 7.14http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah7.htm14
Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
I would like to point out that Mary was a young woman as well as a virgin so in my opinion the text still applies; however for wolfson it may not.

Ok wolfson lets see if we can address your issues.
If he taught them that he is god, or the son of god, then I would have to conclude that he was actually a fake and a sinner; Because as I explained earlier, this is considered idol worship and forbidden by god. In this case Jesus would not fit with the Yisheyah description.
As I have mentioned earlier in the discussion Jesus most certainly did not teach anyone that he was God. Most people believe so because they are unschooled in the Jewish custom of referring oneself as being one with God. I am however curious as to why you believe Jesus claiming to be the Son of God would equate with idolatry; would you be so kind as to elaborate on this.

If he claimed to be a prophet and/or massiah but truly wasn't, then again he is not the holy person some believe.
To the best of my knowledge of the NT Jesus never claimed to be a prophet (although it is written in the NT that some people believed him to be a prophet). Jesus did claim to be the messiah and you were hesitant to read my OT scriptures for the fact. As I said I will not quote any more OT scriptures pointing to Jesus unless you ask me to.

If he simply attempted to teach the OT properly as he claimed (from what I understand), then I am left with some questions.
Why do so many people claim that he is god, and claim that he himself made this claim? Did such thinking come from him or was this a distortion that resulted from the writings of his so-called followers?
The man made doctrine of the Trinity is why so many people claim that Jesus is God. As I stated earlier in this discussion I do not believe in the Trinity; the OT an the NT are very clear about the relationship between God and Jesus. Belief in the Trinity requires what I call cherry picking the scriptures; taking certain verses (usually partial verses) and ignoring others. This is how they base their claim that Jesus said he was God. Most of what you would call distortions come from our current translations. As you know there are no upper or lower case letters in Hebrew or Greek, nor are there punctuations. So the decision to capitalize a word or the placement of punctuation is strictly at the discretion of the translator.

My question is what proof do we have that the man who was tortured to death was actually a good man and an innocent man that did us the great kindness of suffering instead of us.

Unfortunately my friend to answer this question I would need for you to believe that Jesus is the messiah and that Yisheyah 53.4-12 applies to him. Would you like to explore this?

Does he take part in the building of the third and final temple?
Yes it is written in the OT that the messiah will rebuild the temple; however to show you that Jesus will accomplish this I would need to refer to NT scriptures, is that ok with you?

Will he follow the commands of the OT?
This is debatable and would require delving into NT scriptures; would you like to do so?

Will the Jewish people still be considered the chosen people?
Yes; however, this is contingent on the belief that Jesus is the messiah, our Lord and savior. First for the Jew then for the Gentile; I can elaborate further if you so choose.

Does he return as a human?
Yes Jesus is the first fruits, he was raised into an incoruptable human body and will return as such.

Will he die again?
No, when all is accomplished death and the grave will be destroyed, all who are listed in the book of life will live eternally with God and Lord Jesus on the new Earth.

Will he be the same person that he was the first time around?
This is debatable he came first as the lamb he will return as the lion; we can discuss this further if you so desire.

Well wolfson I am off to bed; sleep well my friend.
1/7/2010 10:13:21 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Ryan- I want you to know that I pray constantly that god will lead me on the path of truth. His truth ,the real truth, and the only truth.
I am open to hear what you or anyone has to say, but if I don't see a clear proof from the OT, then I will be forced to reject it.
I ask that when you give answers to my questions, please quote the source of your answers.
I can't accept your approach on Jesus because you think that he was god. This is clearly a mistake and not in line with the truth of god, as I explained above several times.
MichaelRix is exactly right when he writes that those who think this way, simply don't understand that when Jesus calls himself 'one with god', the meaning is that he has come close to god through his serving Him;And not to imply that he is god.

MichaelRix- The concept of being the 'son of god' is only correct in the right context; We are all children of god, because we are His creations. But we are not godly- only He is god; Though we can raise our spiritual levels to come closer to Him. This means only to become like Him in terms of his personality traits. He is kind and we strive to be kind- in order to be like him; But we always remain human.
Jesus, was also human, and son of god, like you and me. Perhaps his spiritual level was above many others, and many would like to believe that god chose him to be the massiah. In that sense only,can he be called the son of god.
The trinity idea,I believe, came from another distortion or misunderstanding of a very Jewish concept that all Jews are familiar with. I could discuss this another time.
This so-called virgin in Yisheyah gives birth to a son that is named Imanuel. There is no indication that she did not conceive from a man and no indication that Jesus is the one referred to in this scripture.
Again this is wishful thinking that has no proof.
many places in the OT have reference to the massiah, but who they refer to will only be known after he is fully successful in completing his job. This job is only complete after the Temple is restored through his efforts and the whole world accepts god and the kingdom of the massiah who descends from King David.
This has not yet happened, and any attempts to make it happen have ended in disaster because the time is not right. Jesus did not prove himself to be anything more than one who attempted to be the massiah-but he also failed in disaster.
Feel free to quote any proof you have to defend this idea that he was the massiah, but I imagine that in every case I will find that the proof simply points to the truth of some massiah that will come, but not a proof that it was him.

1/8/2010 5:06:39 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Good Morning MicahelRix,

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.


John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Mostly, Christians see John 1 as the beginning of the entire Bible. Here we find the Word, being eternally part of God, and the Creator of creation. He then became human and came to Earth - we know the Word to be Jesus.

Therefore, Christians believe Jesus IS God.

This is the reason He could pay the penalty for our sins - His life was worth more than the penalty demanded for the sum total of all sinning humanity.

Believing that Jesus is God, our Savior does not conflict with any Hebrew scriptures - at least in the minds of Christians.

No man could be our Savior - God can / is!
1/8/2010 6:52:06 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Good Morning Wolfson613,

I was aware from the beginning that you are a man of prayer and profound belief in scripture!

I understand that you desire only the truth - that you diligently seek the will of God.

I'm wondering if you do/would specifically pray for God to lead you to His (not mine) truth about Jesus.

Sure, you already believe you have God's truth about Jesus - which leads you to reject Him as the Messiah. But, as you know, God leads us to deeper levels of understanding into matters when we tenaciously seek His direction. Wherever God leads you, with deeper understanding, your knowledge can be used to God's glory.

So, praying specifically to know God's will concerning Jesus cannot hurt any of us in any way.
1/8/2010 7:03:52 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

John 1:1-3
Emphasis added
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.
I don't have the time right now (I've got to go in to work early) tonight when I get home I will address this scripture. I will say for now capitalization is not in the original text and the Greek word translated as He and Him can also be translated as it; more to follow tonight.

God's peace be with you.
1/8/2010 8:36:31 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Ryan- I will pray with you, right now-God please lead us all in the correct path of Your truth,and in the true identity of Jesus.
This means that if anyone of us have an incorrect understanding about Jesus, then we pray that god will set us straight to know Jesus in the way that God wants us to know him.
This means that we pray to know -Was Jesus god, the son of god, a prophet, the massiah, a regular person, a sinner, or any thing else that we should know about Jesus to fulfill gods' will properly! And god, we give you are word that if we come to understand that we made a mistake , that we will change our way of thinking about him and try to help others come to the same understanding.
1/9/2010 9:14:03 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Shabbat Shalom Wolfson613,

AMEN to your prayer! I strive to pray along those lines each day.

Yesterday, when I was praying for us, a thought occurred to me:

Your journey, should you arrive at the destination of Jesus is the Messiah, is only half as long as the trip some of us have traveled to come to that conclusion.

You already start with a profound love for, and understanding of, the Old Testament; but, you suspect that our New Testament was all a hoax to elevate Jesus to an abominable status.

Some of us began our wandering while wondering if the New Testament has been spuriously contrived to jive with an equally fraudulent Old Testament.

Thankfully, God reveals Himself when we seek Him!

Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu, melekh ha-olam!
1/9/2010 10:16:51 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I would like to know what language the NT was originally written in, and exactly what date. Also, which of the writings were written by the original students of Jesus.
I believe that the answers to these questions will help understand why many mistakes were made as to what Jesus really taught. and how to understand what Jesus meant to convey.
I believe that the words of Jesus in many cases were misunderstood and changes were made by mistake ,due to this unfortunate fact.
If the original students of Jesus were Jewish like him ,then I imagine that the language of the NT should have been in the Jewish language. If it was in a different language, then we must understand why that happened.
The same message that MichaelRix wrote about the Greek language is true for the Hebrew language. 'He' and 'Him' can mean 'It'. And this can change the whole meaning
I also believe that this "word" that became flesh was actually the soul or spirit of god which is found in every human. Even animals have some level of this spirit of god ,but this does not make us god. It gives us life and connects us to god, but we remain human and god remains god.
1/9/2010 10:17:43 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

The New Testament was originally written in Greek around A.D 45, and no later than A.D 70. There is some thought that a couple of the books were first written in Hebrew or Aramaic and then translated into Greek.

The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land during this period were Aramaic and Greek. However, Greek was the fashionable, or most preferred, language for scholarly works at that time in history.

I've read that many, if not most of the signs or markings, such as burial inscriptions, that have been uncovered from this time period, throughout Israel, where written in Greek.

We believe we have archeological evidence that Jesus and His disciples spoke Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.

The New Testament was written for Jews and Gentiles, so Greek was a fitting language to reach both groups.

I understand Hebrew is an ancient language that has been meticulously preserved and studied throughout the ages - is there any chance there has been an anti-Jesus drift to the meaning of any words? Or, if a word can mean a couple of different things in Hebrew, is it now more popular to favor the meaning which least coincides with the meaning Christians have used while translating?
1/9/2010 10:52:46 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Wolfson613, So, you don't like the translation of alma as virgin in Isaiah 7:14. I will look for a good explanation for why we insist the word is correctly rendered as virgin. Today I have no explanation but plenty of confidence. What does the name Immanuel mean? We say it means "God with us".

Which verses are you citing as proof that the Messiah is nothing more than a holy mortal man? How does the following verse fit with that notion:
Isaiah 9:6-7 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

The above doesn't seem like the description of a mere mortal - yes, born like a mortal but, also Mighty God & Everlasting Father. How do you interpret this passage?

I would have no problem reciting Shema with you!

Christians believe the Lord is ONE - we are monotheistic too. We believe that the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace mentioned here are ONE!

It seems to me that Hebrew uses pluralistic words for God. The only one that comes to mind now is Elohim. Can Adoni be plural? I think there are at least two more - you can set me straight.

Also, you made the following statements:

many places in the OT have reference to the massiah, but who they refer to will only be known after he is fully successful in completing his job. This job is only complete after the Temple is restored through his efforts and the whole world accepts god and the kingdom of the massiah who descends from King David.


I'm hoping you will identify those many places so I can learn from them and formulate a more informed opinion.

Shavua Tov!

1/9/2010 10:54:12 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I don't understand why you would think there is any support to Jesus from Isaiah 7:14.
Besides the fact that the word "alma" means young girl, and even though she was probably a virgin because she was young, but after she conceived this child from her husband, she was then no longer a virgin.
There is no implication that after conceiving, she is still called "alma".
But that is not the main problem with this Jesus proof. The biggest problem is that the time frame doesn't come close to Jesus. Start from the beginning of the chapter and you will see that this woman lived and gave birth to 'Emanuel' about 400 years before jesus was even born. This prophesy was said to 'Achaz' the King of Yehudah during the first temple era. Isaiah came to tell him that god is going to protect him against the king of Aram who was together with the King of Israel and ready to attack Yerushalayim. The child to be born and named 'Emanuel' which means "god is with us", will be a sign that in fact god will protect Achaz and his people from this attack.
The child was not Jesus. jesus was born as I said ,about 400 years later. The child was only given a name ,to be a sign that god is in fact with us.
That is the main problem, but anyway the whole idea is wishful thinking. There's no mention of the name Mary or Jesus , so why should anyone say this is proof to anything.
As I said several times, first you are deciding that he is the massiah or whatever and then you are attaching his name to any mention of massiah. This can't prove anything from the OT.
I have to stop for now. Be well.
1/9/2010 2:31:19 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Ryan,
First sorry for not getting back to you last night, work was pretty rough and I went straight to bed when I got home. I would first like to address
Isaiah 9:6.
emphasis added
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
In current Jewish texts these titles appear as Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom. Again it is important to remember that there is no capitalization in the original text. wolfson if my translations are off please let me know. Lets look at them one by one.
wonderful counselor(pele joez): this is a rather straight forward translation; pele meaning wonder or miracle and joez meaning counselor.

mighty god(el gibbor): I'll first note that the ordering is different in Hebrew (el can be god or any person strong or capable, gibbor is mighty one, mighty warrior, or special guard) so perhaps a better translation would be a "god-like mighty one".

everlasting father(abi ad): Again the order is different (abi can be father, grandfather, ancestor, or founder as in the father of a city, ad is a unit of time, referring to the past:old, ancient; or without limit: forever, eternal, continual) so this could be "father of old" or "father(as in founder) without limits"

prince of peace(sar shalom): sar refers to rulers of various spheres: commander, official, prince, chief, leader, etc; shalom can be peace, safety, or prosperity. So this could be one who leads us to, or in, peace, safety, and/or prosperity. Like you I am interested in wolfson613's take on this.


1/9/2010 10:14:04 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

As to John 1:1-3:
emphasis added
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The Greek word used for "word" in this text is logos. Logos: word, spoken or written, focused on the content of a communication; ie a plan. The word used for "he" and "him" dia can be either it or he/him. Its usage as the pronoun "he" was used because the translators believed in the Trinity so they believed that Jesus was this logos. John doesn't state or imply this. A better rendering of this scripture would be:
In the beginning was the word(plan or intention), and the word(plan or intention) was with God, and the word(plan or intention) was God. It(The plan or intention) was with God in the beginning. Through it(the plan or intention) all things were made; without it(the plan or intention) nothing was made that has been made.
God's divine plan became flesh.
1/9/2010 11:05:36 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Concerning Isaiah 9:5-Before discussing the names/titles given to this child, it should be understood that this child seems to be Yechizkiyahu, the son of Achaz (who will become the next king of Yehudah), who was born about 400 years before Jesus, as I explained earlier. From the flow of the prophesies in the chapters before and after this one, it becomes obvious that this is the time frame that it's dealing with.
The scripture is stating that in the merit of this child who will be a Tzadik (a very good servant of god), there will be special divine protection from the enemies around him. In fact, the entire army of Sancheriv (Syria), who attempted to attack Yerushalayim while Yechizkiyahu was king ,were beaten by an angel sent by god; And this happened all in one day.
So it seems that anyway, it can't be connected with Jesus who was born much later.
These names that are mentioned, are simply titles of importance that were attached to this child to express his greatness, but not to describe his essence or innate being. He is not god, but he is given titles of godly importance only to express his honor.
Some suggest that in fact the first three titles actually apply to god who named/titled the child only "Sar Shalom"(The prince of peace). According to this opinion, those three names are parenthetical referring back to the one who gave the names, which is god himself.
Therefore, from this scripture we don't have proof to anything about Jesus.
If you want a reference to the Massiah, then go to Isaiah 11:1-10.
Here we learn that the massiah who descends from Yishai, the father of king David, will have special qualities that are not found in the average person. He will be given special senses from god as a gift of his dedicated service to god and will be able to know the truth about a person simply through his senses that were developed because of his holiness.
Again, he is not god, but a servant of god that is given special strengths due to his loyal service. We have no way to know who that person will be until it happens. But we do know that the massiah is a person born into the generation that he arrives at. He is not an angel who comes from the heavens. He simply grows into his position of massiah by virtue of his efforts to achieve the will of god.
I would like to know if there are any sources that trace the lineage of Jesus back to Joseph instead of King David?
I understand that it is not clear from the NT that Jesus can be traced to King David beyond a doubt.
I also want to know if the NT mentions That jesus told the gentiles to serve god in different ways than the Jewish people?
For example Jewish people have to lay Tefillin (phylactaries) everyday when praying. These are the black boxes with writing on parchment inside, that are placed on the arm and head. Did Jesus discuss this obligation for the Jew and instruct him to follow this practice?
1/10/2010 6:01:00 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Concerning Isaiah 9:5-Before discussing the names/titles given to this child, it should be understood that this child seems to be Yechizkiyahu, the son of Achaz (who will become the next king of Yehudah), who was born about 400 years before Jesus, as I explained earlier. From the flow of the prophesies in the chapters before and after this one, it becomes obvious that this is the time frame that it's dealing with.
I know in your scriptures the titles given are in Yisheyah 9.5
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
For us it is Isaiah 9:6 We see that this verse refers to the messiah by looking at
Yisheyah 9.6http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah9.htm6
emphasis added
That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of HaShem of hosts doth perform this.
It seems unlikely that Yechizkiyahu, the son of Achaz, can rule on David's throne for ever.

I would like to know if there are any sources that trace the lineage of Jesus back to Joseph instead of King David?
There are two genealogies for Jesus; one is given in Matthew 1:1-16 which traces his lineage from Abraham through Jacob's son Judah. It is commonly held that this lineage represents Joseph's (Jesus' supposed father) line; I will note that I am currently researching this for I believe the genealogy given here may be unsound. The second genealogy is given in Luke 3:23-37 and traces Jesus' line back to Adam. There are those who believe that this genealogy is that of Mary(Jesus' mother) and was attributed to Joseph through marriage as Mary's father had no sons. It also traces through Jacob's son Judah.

I understand that it is not clear from the NT that Jesus can be traced to King David beyond a doubt
Several texts in the NT make it clear that Jesus' was a son of David. You may argue that this is a fabrication created by his followers to convince others; as I have said before, it is easy to cast doubt on history. The Pharisees questioned Jesus' intentions; but found no fault in his teachings nor did they question that he was a son of David.

I also want to know if the NT mentions That jesus told the gentiles to serve god in different ways than the Jewish people?
Jesus' did not in fact teach the gentiles, and repeatedly said he came for the children of Israel. It was Peter who initially taught a household of gentiles concerning the faith in Jesus as Christ after having a vision from God (Acts 10:9-48). It was Paul(formerly Saul, a persecutor of the followers of Jesus) who spread the teachings and actions of Jesus to the gentiles after receiving a revelation from Jesus on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-15).
1/10/2010 12:14:44 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Concerning Yeshaya 9:6- The biggest difficulty that you will have here, is that the scripture clearly states that all this peace and goodness begins "From now until forever". The 'from now' began with King Chizkiahu which was as I mentioned several hundred years before the time of Jesus.
In addition, the same question that you ask about Chizkiyahu who can't live forever, you should ask about Jesus who did not live forever and did not fulfill this prophesy.
If you answer that he will come back again, we too say that a massiah will descend from King David and continue the Dynasty; but where is the proof that it has to be Jesus. Again, wishful thinking.
Anyway, the word used to describe 'forever' is "Ad-Olam" which can also mean, 'the entire lifetime of the person being discussed ( in this case Chizkiyahu). An example of this can be found in Shmuel 1 chapter 1:22, when Chanah tells her husband that her son Shmuel will stay in the Temple "ad olam" forever. Here to it clearly means the entire lifetime of Shmuel.
If you discover that Jesus in fact descended from Joseph the son of Jacob and not from Yehudah, then I have some amazing information that may help the Christens and Jews find common ground concerning Jesus.
If jesus only taught Jews as you say, then I am very interested to know if the NT mentions any of the many commandments that god gave the Jews which don't apply to gentiles. If jesus was truly good, I would imagine that he would discuss these important commands often when speaking to Jews.
1/11/2010 1:28:26 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

You covered a lot of material in the past couple of days. I've wanted to comment on several of your points, so I'll start here:

I'd be pleased if you would re-read the passage in Isaiah 9 and answer the following questions:

1. Has God ever given a greater prophecy about an individual anywhere else in scripture?

2. King Chizkiahu (Hezekiah) was great but, his appeals to God to save him and Judah only took Judah so far. By the end of King Chizkiahu's life, Issaih was prophesying (2 Kings 20:16-18) that Judah would be enslaved in Babylon. King Chizkiahu did not even die in peace because he knew the fate of his family and kingdom. Do you really believe God is describing King Chizkiahu with this prophecy of enduring peace and governmental supremacy?

3. Who was the greater king - David, or Chizkiahu?

4. Is there still much of this prophecy left to be fulfilled - things that were never fulfilled by King Chizkiahu? Were each of these points, in every sentence, of the prophecy ever fulfilled?

5. What was King Chizkiahu's connection to Galilee?

I understand that Jews have always believed that the prophecy of Isaiah 9 refers to King Chizkiahu but, when you compare that glorious announcement to the gloomy news he received at the end of his life - we cannot fathom both prophesies would refer to the same person.

Please re-read Isaiah 9:1-7 and 2 Kings 20:16-18 and tell me if you actually believe - regardless of tradition - God is prophesying about the same person in both passages?

1/11/2010 2:56:26 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Also:

Our New Testament records Jesus preaching to Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles.

Jesus made concerted efforts to reach the people of the northern tribes of Israel to redeem these long estranged children of God.

Jesus never taught anyone to disobey the commands of God. He did not agree that the leaders of Judah were teaching God's commands as God had intended them.

For example, the oral traditions of the Torah seemed to make the law an outward display that people engaged in to look holy without the law actually changing their heart. I'd consider phylacteries to fit into this category.

Surely, it is evident in may books of the OT that God spoke against the way His people had worshiped Him - God punished them for their wayward hearts. Jesus knew an outward display of righteousness could mean the hearts of the people remained in rebellion.

Jesus came to turn the hearts of the people back to God.

Jesus proclaimed that God wanted His law written on the hearts of His people - then, Jesus showed us how to accomplish this!
1/11/2010 3:21:24 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
Our New Testament records Jesus preaching to Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles
I know of a few where he helped Gentiles who approached him but none where he taught them. I would appreciate it if you could give me the NT texts where Jesus taught Gentiles.

Also I started a discussion concerning the Trinity and would appreciate you thoughts, scriptural references, books, etc.

wolfson my friend, do you so question the OT? What proves can you supply me to justify your faith in OT text? You have told me before that you have your traditions and I have explained that we too have traditions; many are the same, many are different.

You were taught, as I was, that Moses was given the law by God. You have searched your heart and found faith there in God and believe the law came from God.
I was taught that Jesus died in my place, rose from the grave defeating death, and that he will return to fulfill God's will. I have searched my heart and found faith there in God and believe Jesus came from God. Jesus' life, ministry, teachings, miracles, and sacrifice all point to the messiah. His promise to return and reign on earth brings hope to my heart and strengthens my faith in God.

I submit to you that if you faithfully follow God with your heart, and keep to the law given by Moses, not just in action but as an extension of your heart, that when the messiah returns, to fulfill God's will, you will then recognize him and we will rejoice together in the Glory of God's great plan for us all. He is EL-ELYON and JEHOVAH-JIREH and I put my faith in Him.

Peace be with you Ryan; Peace be with you wolfson; may God's will for us be understood by us.
1/11/2010 9:29:25 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Ryan-In 2 kings 20:19, Chizkiyahu expresses to Yishayahu that he is not disturbed by the bleak future as long as, in his lifetime, he has peace; and in fact this was gods' promise to him as I mentioned above, that the words "ad olam" mean, 'in his lifetime'.
I don't see why you feel that Jesus fits any better into this prophesy, since all your questions about peace, for him, also never realized yet.
I will explain now an important point about the OT prophesies in general. Although, usually, there is one point in time that the prophesy is mostly focused on, at the same time these same prophesies can and do repeat themselves at future times in history.
Therefore, even this one which refers to Chizkiyahu, at the same time also speaks of the future.
But, again, this does not prove or point to Jesus persay. As MichaelRix correctly has said, we all begin our starting point from where we put our faith, and from there, find indications to support our beliefs. These supports we find in the OT do not really prove anything, rather it just relaxes us and gives us confidence that are beliefs and hopes are not for nothing.
Now, there is another point I want make. The Jewish opinion about the massiah does not directly have to disqualify Jesus as a possible candidate . We Know that there is a soul that belongs to the massiah, and in every generation, this soul is placed in the body of one relative to King David, with the potential for that soul to complete it's job. If the people in the generation are not ready for the massiah then he cannot complete his job. He may die, and the soul moves into another body of a relative to King David.
It is a possibility that if Jesus was in fact a relative of King David, then he may have had the soul of the massiah, and this is why he tried so hard to complete the job. But , the people where not ready, and did not see who he was and even turned against him.
But, after his death the soul moved into another body, and this repeats itself over and over again.
When the massiah is finally successful, we will meet him, and know that it is him. If this soul was previously in the body of Jesus, then you can say that in someway Jesus has returned. But the body, will be simply a container for the soul and matters very little if it matches the same body that he had the first time: It's the soul of massiah that needs to be focused on. Therefore all these references in the OT that are pointing to the massiah may point to the soul that was once in Jesus.
The Jewish problem with Jesus is mostly, that many claim he is God; and this is clearly a mistake that even Jesus never meant to convey; and if he did convey this message intentionally, then he certainly was not the massiah in any way, but rather a false prophet who was deserving of the death he received.
Secondly, the Jewish opinion is that he did sin; But I say that this may have been a mistake and a misjudgment of Jesus.
In the future, we certainly will discover exactly which mistakes we all made in our mutual desire for the Mashiach/Massiah.
1/12/2010 1:14:27 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

The trouble with kings:

When Israel desired to replace God with a human king, God warned them they could never be satisfied with any human king.

God was correct.

The same applies to a human Messiah!
1/12/2010 6:33:32 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

MichaelRix,

I found these verses to be compatible with the John 1:14:

Colossians 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.


Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.


These verses tell me that Jesus is the Logos (not a plan) who created all that was created and then became flesh to dwell among us - in a way a plan never could.

As far as to whom Jesus preached:

During His earthly ministry, Jesus did not travel beyond Judea and Samaria. Going to Samaria with a message of compassion and reconciliation was the equivalent of consorting with heathen reprobates.

I know the Pharisees of that day did not hold the Samaritans in high esteem - I'm not sure if they thought of them as the equivalent to Gentiles.

Jesus did not only preach in the synagogues. So, Gentile foreigners in Israel could have been exposed to His message; as was the case of the Italian Centurion.

In the eternal sense, the teachings of Jesus are intended for all peoples of the world!

As for the Trinity - I posted a comment in that Discussion.
1/12/2010 6:45:45 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
I don't know what you are referring to, when you say that god warned Israel that they would not be satisfied with a human king. One of his commands in the Torah that he gave the Jews, is in fact to appoint a human king from amongst the Jewish people (see Devarim 17:15).
It's clear to me that as long as you are convinced that there's no problem with this idea- that 'God becomes human', then you will not be able to see the truth in the OT or NT.
You must first understand that this idea is wrong and not Gods' will; Only then will you begin to read the scriptures in the proper frame of mind.
This would be hard for you because you have grown with this concept, but it is not at all correct.
1/12/2010 7:30:55 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Ryan,
I don't know what you are referring to, when you say that god warned Israel that they would not be satisfied with a human king. One of his commands in the Torah that he gave the Jews, is in fact to appoint a human king from amongst the Jewish people (see Devarim 17:15).
It's clear to me that as long as you are convinced that there's no problem with this idea- that 'God becomes human', then you will not be able to see the truth in the OT or NT.
You must first understand that this idea is wrong and not Gods' will; Only then will you begin to read the scriptures in the proper frame of mind.
This would be hard for you because you have grown with this concept, but it is not at all correct.
1/12/2010 7:31:35 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Ryan,
Another point that you should know is that Jesus spoke the languages that you mentioned but many ideas that he taught were originally from the Hebrew language. So things were probably confused in the translations from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. There are sometimes drastic differences in the meaning of words that get lost in the translations. especially, when the original teacher/source is not there to correct the mistakes in understanding.
As you quote from the NT, I see familiar concepts that are from the OT which have been misconstrued.
1/12/2010 7:49:57 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

1/12/2010 8:03:43 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

In the OT, God's people - as a whole - rejected God. God said He would set them straight.

If religious authorities had been getting it right, from Moses to the last of the OT prophets - how much of the Bible could God have:

never written - as in the many chapters of warnings & descriptions of imminent punishment?

or

could have been replaced with chapters describing blessings and honors God would have bestowed on His people?

Much of the OT is warnings of God's wrath for the people's disobedience. Many of God's people remain in the same disobedience to God as is depicted in the OT.

Please consider if the NT parallels you see - but now believe to be mistakes - may really be God's Word to correct His people.

God did promise to reconcile His people to Him - this is being done by the Messiah!
1/12/2010 8:21:24 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

It's understandable to think that Jesus was rejected unfairly, but that doesn't turn him into God.
That quote from 1 samuel was speaking of a time when God was upset with the request for a king because it was clear their request was not with good intentions. Samuel was already leading them as their king, therefore it was clear that they were looking to be freed from their connections to god and be like other gentile nations. This is what was disturbing to God.
But the request to have a king that will lead them in the service of god ,is proper in all respects, and can only be a human king.
1/12/2010 8:35:36 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

The Jewish people did and still do many sins that angers God; But the sins they have always done have nothing to do with not accepting Jesus.
They have worshiped idols in the past, broken the sabbath, steal, cheat, and many other things that need to be corrected. Certainly the massiah will be a big part of this solution to all the problems. But as I mentioned above, the massiah is a soul that will enter the proper body in the right time, and not necessarily will you find it in the body of Jesus.
1/12/2010 8:49:16 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

A central theme of the Bible is:

Humanity rejects God.
Humanity longs to be reconciled to God.
No human - be it king or messiah - can give the people what they need.
Only God - the Messiah - can reconcile humanity to Him.

Those that reject the Messiah today are walking in the same shoes as our ancestors who decided against God. The OT records their example - and God's petitions for them to return to Him.

The NT reveals the Messiah and provides the means to return to God!
1/12/2010 9:20:51 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
Gods' way, is and has always been, to send his loyal servants, who are human but on a high spiritual level, to deliver His message.
True that the ultimate salvation will only come through direct input from God, and many miracles will take place, but the servant will always himself be human. The massiah as well is human with special guidance from God, that's why he will be successful in his mission to save the world and guide those who survive, back to the path of truth.
The NT may give you direction and this is good, but the thought that Jesus is God, is misconstrued from ideas that are mentioned already in the OT. There is no reason to hold onto this idea. What really matters is that you want to please God and want to know His will.
He will lead you on the right path!
1/12/2010 9:41:34 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

I found no scriptural support for your returning soul theory of the Messiah.

The Messiah is God's prophecy - to be delivered on God's time - not the time frame of the people, when ever they happen too be ready.

Here is something that is in Scripture:

Daniel 7:13-14
“There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”


Jesus, our Messiah, has begun His eternal Kingdom – and continues it within the hearts of His people today. He will return to Earth as King of Kings while ushering in a new age with a New Jerusalem.

All of humanity is looking for a human fix to all that is wrong. The Jews have always expected a human messiah but, no human will be able to provide what we need - every human, no matter how much they are led by God, will be found lacking - that is what being human is.

God says He is the only way - return to Him!
Reject human reasoning, human will, human solutions!
Accept the Devine Messiah!
1/12/2010 9:51:15 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

If you delve into this quote from Daniel, you should come to the conclusion that I mentioned over and over again.
The massiah is human with special unique qualities and strengths that are God given, which enable him to succeed.
In Zechariah 3:8, we see another reference to Mashiach. God tells Yehoshua the high priest that He will send the mashiach and refers to him as his growing servant. So Mashiach is a servant of God , not God himself; And Mashiach is compared to a plant that has to grow into full bloom to gather strength.
1/12/2010 10:22:45 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

Yes, the Messiah is fully human and fully God. Scripture refers to Him as the Branch in several places - which, I do not understand - except He sprang from the line of David and His Kingdom does grow.

In Zachariah 3:7-9 He is referred to as "the Branch" and "my servant". It also says He will remove sin in a single day.

Jesus was a servant; He willing gave His life for others. Only God can remove sin. Jesus (God) came as a man, was tempted in all things like a man and lived a sinless life.

He became the atonement for the sins of man - only His life (being divine) was worth more than the collective penalty due to sinning humanity. By sacrificing His life He was the sin offering for all those who will accept His sacrifice.
1/12/2010 3:16:28 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Israel clamored for thousands of years for God to send yet another prophet - another man - to deliver them. They always promised to follow but, never did. They rejected all those that God sent.

However, it appears they rejected the men God sent - but, in reality they have always been rejecting God. God continues to cry to His people, "How long will you turn from Me?"

Each year, the people required a sin offering to cover their sins. Eventually, God paid the price to cover their sins - forever - by sacrificing Jesus as our Passover Lamb. Yet many continue to look for God to send them yet another - man.

Being so earthbound, we tend to look for the familiar pattern rather than a higher way to elevate us from the age-old rut of being so earthbound.

Due to the great love God has for His people, and weariness with our stubbornness, God made a radical change to bring us up.

When enough was enough, God broke the cycle of us being bound to sin - perpetually digging the rut that becomes our grave. He gave us the choice of freedom from sin and its penalty - and therefore, eternal life with Him.

That offer is through the Messiah, Jesus Christ!
1/12/2010 3:20:54 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

We Know that there is a soul that belongs to the massiah, and in every generation, this soul is placed in the body of one relative to King David, with the potential for that soul to complete it's job. If the people in the generation are not ready for the massiah then he cannot complete his job. He may die, and the soul moves into another body of a relative to King David.
This is a very interesting notion wolfson, where do you find this? Also does this teaching suggest that you believe in the immortality of the human soul?
1/12/2010 8:31:19 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Ryan-
All I can say, is to repeat what I wrote when I began this discussion, but I will add a little more explanation.
The greatest proof that I could bring against this idea that Jesus is God, is from God Himself. He was angered by the creation of the golden calf, and considered it to be idol worship as He says Himself to Moses.
After creating this calf, the people said."These are your God that brought you up from Egypt".
Now examine these words carefully. Why do they say 'these', when there's only one calf (one God)?
And why do they claim that this calf brought them up from Egypt, When they all knew that this was not true?
The answer to these questions are the reason that Jesus cannot be God.
They believed exactly what you believe, God had become tangible and visible in the form of this calf. Therefore they said 'these', meaning God and this calf are one; and probably even held from the trinity concept, since the holy spirit brought the calf out of the melting pot.
This is also why they claim that this calf brought them up from Egypt; Because the calf , in their belief, was in fact the same God, in the tangible form.
You have come to believe this exact idea about Jesus. But look at Gods' reaction to this mistake.
He was ready to totally destroy the entire people that He just took out of Egypt.
From here we see that God is extremely insulted with the very notion that He would make Himself human, tangible, small, and even visible.
Your theory that only God can be successful in redeeming His people, is not a reason to create a golden calf.
He will support the Mashiach and strengthen him by giving him special abilities that will almost make him seem Godly, and this is why he won't fail; But mashiah is NOT God!
1/13/2010 12:36:14 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

MichaelRix-
The soul is spiritual, created by God, and even a part of God (but not God). The soul when leaving the body before and after death is in a place that you might call heaven. It is near God, similar to the angels that are near God.
God sends it to the earth, placing it in a body, and allowing it to live for it's lifetime. It has the choice to serve God faithfully or rebel against God. It has free will to decide what path it chooses.
When returning to heaven, it will be judged there and either go directly to a place that you call Hell (we call GeHenom), where it's sins will be cleansed through various punishments, or will go to a place where it will receive the rewards that have been earned through dedicated service to God.
Sometimes for various reasons, the soul is sent back to earth to complete some job, and put in another body to live here.
The soul of Mashiach is unique, and has to be on earth in every generation to be ready to redeem Gods' people, because God may decide at any time to send him; And since Mashiach is a person, he must be born into every generation, He won't fall from heaven. This is why he is called "My growing servant".
These ideas are part of the learning that all religious Jews receive. you won't find these ideas explicitly mentioned in the OT, because Jews have a second part to the OT which was traditionally taught orally. But both parts of the OT were received when God gave his people the Torah in the desert.
1/13/2010 1:12:07 AM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009

Wolfson613,

We feel our Messiah is not failing - His Kingdom is growing!

We also believe God wants His people to turn from all idols to return to Him.

Again, I refer to:

Daniel 7:13-14
“There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”


Sovereign power - worshipped by all - everlasting dominion - could only refer to:

Jesus Messiah - God!
1/13/2010 2:23:45 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

 
There have been many with all kinds of beliefs. We hope and pray that the glory of God will be revealed in the whole world soon. Then we will discover the whole truth.
Quoting scriptures and attaching meaning that isn't there, won't prove anything to anyone.
It should be obvious that all these descriptions are meant to express the greatness of Mashiach, but not to transform him into God.
But the obvious is not always obvious to those who don't want to hear.
I wish you well!
1/13/2010 2:52:36 PM by wolfson613, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/29/2009



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