I have always found the doctrine of hell to be distressing. A place of eternal anguish by fire for those who do not accept Jesus as the Christ. The moral, the just, the compassionate, etc. outside of Christ enduring eternal torment. I know I should not question God's motives or judgments, but I can't help wondering how this is love.

12/3/2009 10:51:22 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Hi MichaelRix, I understand where you're coming from and I have many of the same questions also. Although I don't understand ANY church's doctrine on hell, I'm confident that whatever God's doctrine on hell is, it must be: Just Good Loving Regardless of whether we understand God's plan or not - we can trust God's ways are so much higher than our ways.

12/4/2009 3:38:16 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I was wondering when this topic would hit the fan and I apologize in advance for offending anyone - but, this subject really sets me on fire. This is yet another chance for you all to practice your forgiveness skills regarding my lack of understanding and blundering through scripture. In the end, we can all trust God to eventually set me straight on this topic too. I believe the failure to coherently teach hell from scripture is the fault of the Church - not God. I also believe this is one of the most important shortcomings of the modern church because: - seekers are naturally troubled by the concept of hell and then further impacted by a lack of clarity on the topic - church members go off on tangents believing anything from strict dogma to new age concepts due to the confusion in their churches - Christianity bashers have plenty of ammunition here to unload on the church and God Most importantly though, I'm convinced that many Christians are inadvertently but egregiously maligning God with their doctrines on hell. Several months ago I heard an internationally renowned pastor speak on the topic of hell. He is one which I always enjoy hearing because I've learned so much from him - however, on this topic there was no learning on my part. This pastor used Luke 16:19-31 to describe the anguish element of traditional hell. After HE invited questions, I asked, to his displeasure, for an explanation of his doctrine on the saved in heaven conversing with the condemned in hell since he was using this parable to describe what hell is literally like. His response was, "Go ask your Pastor!" I can think of several good reasons why he should not have answered my question on the record - but his refusal did not result in the teaching/learning exchange. This famous pastor also did not answer the other questions I posed, but instead accused me (good naturedly) of being a Universalist; one who would therefore not accept any of his answers (answers which he consequently did not waste the time to mention). The additional questions I had asked were roughly: How did we traverse the scripture-into-doctrine dived and get from "The wages of sin is death." to "No, the wages of sin is certainly not death at all, but is actually eternal life in excruciating anguish"? How do we expose those who died in sin, being resurrected to face the White Thrown Judgment and then being thrown in the Lake of Fire - to be punished with the second death. But, then we shake the wand of the doctrine of hell at them - and declare that second death is also really no death at all, because they are actually living on in eternal torment in hell? How do you explain the weighty number of scriptures that describe the reward of the saved as eternal life while, in contrast, the penalty for the unsaved is often defined as nothing more than death? Granted, there are also scriptures that use the term eternal punishment instead of death; however, eternal punishment is juxtaposed against eternal life so one could conclude that eternal punishment is not eternal life in any state. Well, a couple weeks after this exchange, one of the pastors at my church, who has been a very good friend to me, asked me what it would take to get me to officially join the church. When I told him I had many unanswered questions, he encouraged me to ask, and he'd be happy to spend time helping me. After a couple more weeks, I finally got up the nerve to expose my self as a raving, hell-doubting lunatic and I asked him my questions. Next week will mark two months with no answers from this pastor. I have too much admiration for my pastor to fault him for a slow reply but, he definitely is increasing my expectations of his answers. So while I'm waiting, if anyone else can offer any thoughts on this subject, I'd be delighted to consider your perspective!

12/4/2009 3:47:58 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, As I understand it, hell is eternal ife without God. I can't imagine this temporal life without God. I too, have heard all the fire and brimstone sermons. As a child, I told my family and friends, that don't sound like a loving God to me. I could understand being punished for a weekend, but eternally, didn't add up. Now that I'm grown up (somewhat) I have learned to just trust Him. Hell was created for satan and his imps, not for people. Eternal separation from Him is enough to turn most folk. I'm sure that this has not really shed any light on the subject, but it's my understanding. God is Good and His mercy endures forever. I have read no scriptures that support Him as a torturer. May you enter His peace.

12/6/2009 6:34:58 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hi Mrs. Piggy, I truly enjoyed the entirety of your post! Since I respect your Biblical knowledge, I'm relieved to learn you dont see any scriptural basis to paint God as a torture either. I agree, eternal life without God would really be hell! However, when you mentioned that, the related concept of the immortal soul came to mind. Since I was a child, I heard man has an immortal soul. However, after learning that much of what I was taught is wrong - I tend to question everything. The immortal soul is now on my chopping block, but my knife skills are a bit dull. Can you identify a definitive scripture illustrating the immortality of the soul? I can think of a few scriptures that seem to indicate the immortal soul concept, but none are as direct as ones that seem to say the opposite, for example: Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son - both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. I realize that I may be lifting that scripture out of the intended context in Ezekiel. But, it does jive nicely with my very literal translation of Romans 6:23, which is sin equals death (period) not eternal life somewhere else. So, is eternal life a gift or do we already have it by virtue of being human? Or, is eternal life just short slang for eternal life with God? During the Christmas season, we encounter many references to Jesus coming to earth so that men could have life - He is the life. Or do we inherently have everlasting life with or without Him? At Easter, we sing of how Jesus conquered the grave - that'd be no big deal if all humans will do the same. Today, I was reading 1 & 2 Timothy and came across these very fitting verses for the Christmas season: 1 Timothy 6:15-17 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 2 Timothy 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. So, for the present moment, I'm concluding that there is no immortality for the human soul - except through Jesus. God alone is immortal and Jesus has brought immortality to us! Merry Christmas!

12/7/2009 2:06:20 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I will have to really research this as I, too, have been taught man ha an immortal soul. I was taught when a person dies, his/her spirit returns to God. The body returns to dust and the soul goes to Jesus if the person was a believer and to hell if not. As a matter of fact, my pastor says that as part of the altar call each week. I know you are way to young to remember the movie "Fame", but there's a line to the theme song that goes, "Fame, I'm gonna live forever..." I always think of it during altar call. I would think based on the information offered during altar call, everybody's going to live forever, it's just a matter of where. Heaven or hell. But, again that does not add up to scripture. The scripture indicates only believers live forever and sinners die the death. I will get back to you soon.

12/7/2009 4:44:34 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

If you read Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46 you will see why eternal torment in "hell", which Jesus refers to as the "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", is taught in church. However, Rev 20:10-15 seem to tell a different fate. The devil is thrown into the "lake of burning sulfur" to suffer forever, while those whose names are not in the book of life get cast into the "lake of fire", which is called the "second death", along with death and Hades. I am not sure whether this means that they are raised from death to die again or to suffer eternally. Given it is called the "second death" I assume it means we die and are gone, but I don't know. Jesus does teach about torment in the fires of hell after death in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Luke16:19-31. However there is nothing in that story to suggest that it is eternal torment; it may endure until Jesus' judgment and then end with the second death. All this does conflict with the message Jesus taught in Matthew 25:46 though; "they will go away to eternal punishment,...". Thoughts?

12/7/2009 9:55:22 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Hebrews 9:26-28 reads: "Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." It is after the judgment that the second death occurs for the unbeliever. I think eternal punishment is that second death, separation from God. Perhaps the word "fire" has been used to contrast the believers "living waters" that Jesus spoke of in John 7:38.

12/8/2009 8:01:32 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy, During the alter calls at my church the pastor also repeats the same lines about choosing where you want to spend eternity - heaven or hell. I find it difficult to resist the temptation to give a call-out of my own, which would be "Scripture please!" But, then I do want people to make the choice to live with Jesus for eternity so I keep my mouth shut. A few weeks ago, my pastor was speaking on some topic other than eternity and he startled me when he was reading through the second chapter of Romans. I think he may have startled himself when he read this verse aloud: Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Then, I think he accidentally used a poor word choice to interpret the words he did not expect to hear in that manner. He said, "Of course, it does not really mean you have to seek immortality; you have to decide where you want to spend your eternity." A while ago, my wife and I graduated from being balcony dwellers to front row pillars; I say it's our way of giving back to a congregation that has been so good to us. Plus, holding down the front row allows me the opportunity to periodically dispense with church decorum and spin around to evaluate the reaction on the faces of the believers when the pastor says something that I cannot grasp. After the pastor gave his spur of the moment interpretation of Romans 2:7, I looked across the church and saw a sea of bobble heads nodding waves of agreement at his analysis. Mostly, I wish I could catch that wave with everyone else, but presently I'm afraid to jump into that water. My pastor has impressive scholarly credentials and I explicitly trust his commitment to accurately teach scripture - I also believe he is gifted by God to do so. However, some concepts leave me perplexed. If I hadn't already surpassed my allowance, for the remainder of this century, for embarrassing my wife, I would have liked to ask him on the spot, what error he found in Romans 2 that made him say it really didn't mean what it says. I also wanted to ask him to fire his best scripture shot supporting eternity in hell and I would apply his same "it really doesnt mean that" reasoning to that scripture. Mrs. Piggy, at that time I also thought of a scripture I've seen you quote a few times: Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. which is also supported by these words of Jesus: John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. Currently, I believe if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior, we have chosen eternal life and thereby escape eternal death.

12/8/2009 8:23:13 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, Romans 2:7 states: "He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers." The immortality that Paul is refering to is the eternal life through Jesus. It does bring to mind Deut. 30:19 "Chose life". It is the only way to imortality and is what people seek. Believe it or not, even believers are afraid of death. Currently, I believe as you do.

12/8/2009 8:52:45 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy, I like the version of Romans 2:7 you used better than the NIV quote I had used. Your rendition more clearly states eternal life - and - immortality (in case there is any confusion) is something God gives to those who seek it.

12/8/2009 9:13:37 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

MichaelRix, I re-visited all of the verses you mentioned in your last post and wanted to comment on Luke 16:19-31 first, because it is the one that most people I know will reference to explain their concept of eternal torment in hell. I believe that because this passage is recorded in Luke, then Jesus certainly spoke these words. Furthermore, because Jesus spoke them, they are perfect and holy. What this parable really means though, I wish I knew. The first time I ever read that passage, it was from the King James Version. The KJV uses the term "Abraham's bosom" to describe where the angels took Lazarus. Unfortunately, that phrase is permanently graffitied on my mind. I'm not homophobic, but to me, the bosom of Abraham just does not seem like the paradise where I want to be rocking my soul for eternity. And that was the beginning of all my other questions about this parable. Not being Jews, we perhaps dwell on Abraham less then those who Jesus was addressing in the moment he spoke those words. Some of the leading Jews of that day did not believe in the resurrection (Sadducees) and others seemed to look forward to an afterlife described as being with the Israelite Fathers. We tend to see Heaven as being in the presences of God or eternal life with Jesus. Although Jesus spoke this parable for the very people before Him when the words came out of His mouth - He is also speaking to all people throughout the ages with the same words. I don't know why he used the term Abraham's bosom here instead of the term Kingdom of Heaven which he used in other places. Another very puzzling feature of the parable is Abraham and Lazarus are carrying on a conversation with the rich man who is in hell! For those that believe this is a literal depiction of hell - I'd be pleased to hear an explanation of their literal doctrine on the saved in heaven jabbering with the condemned in hell. You rightly pointed out that this parable does not say the rich man's torment was eternal. We do see the term eternal punishment used a few times and have references to eternal flames of hell, with smoke from hell's fire rising eternally. Eternal punishment could be consistent with the eternal/final death. I still haven't encountered a good explanation for how we reconcile the popular belief of eternal life in torment with all the verses that say the condemned receive death - even a second death, and with the events of Revelations 20 & 21. A secret I must keep in much of my social dealings is that politically, I lean way right. As I like my politics to be conservative, I'd prefer my religion to be the same. At this time, I feel it may be more conservative to take God literally on all of those verses about the wages of sin being death - before I go pinning the rap of an insatiable, gruesome, torturer on the God who reveals Himself to be Love.

12/8/2009 12:05:53 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan I believe the "Kingdom of Heaven" is a referal to the new Heaven and the new Earth which are to come after all is accomplished. I will agree that there is far more scripture to back up the "wages of sin is death" idea. In fact, the idea of eternal punishment is not an Old Testament one. The closest you can get to that is "Sheol",the land of the dead. Actually, Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't say the unbeleiving go to eternal punishment, just those who do not feed the hunger, give drink to the thirsty, etc. Jesus did say in Matthew 7:21-23 not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven . Perhaps those people who do not believe in God or Jesus who still do what is right in the Lords sight will be inscribed in the book of life. Thoughts.

12/8/2009 9:33:55 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

MichaelRix, You brought up several good points .... I have much to learn. I think you're right about the meaning of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those words like Sheol, Gehenna and Hades are presently over my head - deciphering their meanings seems like a daunting task because there are so many varied opinions on their connotations. I had never thought about Matthew 25:31-46 and Matthew 7:21-23 as explaining each other but, now I see a possible connection. The seemingly religious, who call "Lord, Lord" but don't practice true religion - which is loving others - are the ones that can't enter the Kingdom because they never belonged to Jesus, as evidenced by their lack of works. We may disagree on one point: I believe we can literally only be saved by Jesus' name - not just by doing the loving works that Jesus wants us to do. However, I do think God is working with people in various manners; He loves His creation, and He is bringing people to salvation in ways we don't understand. Thanks for starting this discussion; I've enjoyed reading your thoughts!

12/9/2009 10:02:43 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan I agree with your statement I believe we can literally only be saved by Jesus' name - not just by doing the loving works that Jesus wants us to do. Although I would probably say by Jesus, not just the name Yeshua. Matthew 9:28 speaks of the soul and body being "destroyed" in hell. Luke 12:5 says something simular. Neither comment on eternal torment or pain. I have been thinking about Matthew 25:46 and I believe that the "second death" could be considered an eternal punishment; your dead eternally, perhaps this is what Jesus is refering to. I am still somewhat concerned concerning Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was in torment and he begged Abraham to let him warn his brothers against this place of torment. The greek word used in these verses is basanos which means: torment, severe pain, torture. I found this definition in "The Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance". Also Jude 1:7 speaks about the punishment of eternal fire. The passage Luke may be a parable not meant to be taken literally (I am not sure that is the case), the one in Jude is not a parable. Thoughts..

12/9/2009 12:03:32 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

MichaelRix, Of course, I can see some scriptural hints of traditional, eternal torment hell. However, as we agree, there are far more scriptures showcasing eternal life for the saved juxtaposed against death for the condemned. LIFE versus DEATH is one of the TOP MEGA-THEMES of the BIBLE. It's amazing to consider all the scriptures that use the life and death language. Every sermon I hear or serious amount of reading I do, turns up at least one scripture on that theme, even though the central topic was not eternity. My pastor is a traditional fire and brimstone kind of guy - I appreciate and respect him immensely! However, he just can't keep away from the life versus death verses no matter what topic he speaks on. A couple of weeks ago he gave a sermon on tithing; I'm not criticizing it per se, except perhaps he moved a little too slowly and therefore left me too much time to read ahead in the text he's discussing. I had previously not paid much attention to the book of Malachi; I thought it was a prosaic metaphor. When my pastor did the obligatory coverage of Malachi 3:8 while insisting this carried great weight for us, I read the next chapter. I have no problem with my pastor taking Malachi 3:8 literally, but then I'd also like him to literally accept: Malachi 4:1-3 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. Then you will trample down the wicked; THEY WILL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty. And, that brings me to one of the verses (although you were off by one chapter) you reference in your last post: Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. I have heard an argument stating the word "destroy" does not entail the cessation of existence - which may be somewhat plausible. But, if the bodies of the unrepentant are literally ashes, I'm leaning toward both body and soul equally don't exist after being tossed into hell's fire. Again, I can't see a good case for the immortal soul of man - it's existence is all wrapped up in the existence of continuous suffering of man in hell. When I searched the words "immortality" and "soul" (separately) at Biblegateway.com, I didn't find God distinctly stating He gave man an immortal soul. I do clearly see God, in multiple scriptures, offering to give man eternal life, if man will accept it.

12/9/2009 1:44:40 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

MichaelRix, Another thing that your earliest post today caused me think about: God expects us to lovingly care for the needy (you had referenced Matthew 25:31-46). We also know we are forbidden to torture each other. Hebrews 6:18 tells us God cannot lie. We are also told not to lie. 2 Peter 3:11 instructs us to live holy and godly lives. So, my question: Is there anything God forbids us to do - like torturing - that He does?

12/9/2009 1:49:42 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I can think of at least one thing - accepting worship - but I'm not sure if that does anything for your argument.

12/9/2009 1:52:20 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Another thought: One of the newer, popular thoughts on hell is that hell is a prison locked form the inside and inhabited by those who want to be separated from God. I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man also contradicts that theory. The rich man seems to be filled with concern and compassion (not a reprobate emotion, but a godly thought) for his brothers who are on the wrong course. In this case, the rich man's hell-prison was one in which he wanted the word and lessons of eternal life to get out to warn his brothers. Jesus spoke this parable before He died - and He wanted the same message of "repent and do right" to reach His brothers. Now, I think that is the meaning of the parable.

12/9/2009 2:01:08 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Michael Lane, Good point - you got me! Do I have a better argument if I switch the order of my statement, like this? Is there anything God does - like torturing - that He forbids us to do?

12/9/2009 2:06:09 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, How about - love the world?

12/9/2009 2:08:57 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Maybe that analogy doesn't work.... But, I think God does want us to love the world in the same way He loves the world. My point is that I don't see eternal torment for people to be in God's nature. Christians love to tell the world "God loves you!" However, the doctrine of hell has most of the world just a few breaths away from something we don't recognize as love. The world calls us out on this!

12/9/2009 2:20:38 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

God does love the world. Why would they call us out on that? If they can believe that they will burn in hell eternally, why can't they believe He loves them? Sounds like a cop-out for those who don't want to accept Him as LORD and Master. Remember in the last days men will be lovers of themselves. He wants to be master of his own universe.

12/9/2009 2:42:24 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

We know the world cannot understand many of the things of God. It may be only a cop out but, some may honestly not see God as loving when they've been told He acts in a way that humans universally see as unloving. Is eternal torment in hell an example of God's ways being so much higher than our ways? Or, are we repulsed by the accounts of tortures like Stalin or Hitler because the moral law, which comes from God, has revealed to us it is wrong to torment others? We all agree God is God - His ways are higher than ours. We need to learn His ways. We'd also agree that it is a sin to re-package God in a way that we think makes Him more palatable to the world. It is also wrong to misrepresent God by erroneous interpretations of the His intentions or His Word. One of my favorite bloggers happens to be a believer in some serious strife in the afterlife of the condemned. However, one aspect of his writing I enjoy is his frequent comments on how the Reformation was so beneficial for the Church - and he asserts, the Reformation is not over yet. Often, I feel it is absolutely absurd to consider mainstream Protestants/Evangelicals could have any errors in their doctrine of hell. Then when I look at the starting point the Reformation has taken us so far from, regarding doctrine on hell, it becomes easy to wonder if we could still have a little more Reformation to pass through.

12/9/2009 7:27:04 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

"We all agree God is God - His ways are higher than ours. We need to learn His ways." That's all there is to it.

12/9/2009 8:00:39 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Another thought on how some in the world tend to view the love of God: When my daughter was two years old, she'd call every prince in every story Popi (that's me). At age three, at least ten times per day, she'd ask me to marry her. By the age of four she had a long progression of boyfriends who each came with detailed wedding plans she had derived. Now at eight years old she's officially on record as seriously disliking all boys. However, it's easy to see evidence of that just being a poorly contrived ruse to hide the truth. Alas, she will be shopping for a real husband some day. I will probably advise her along the same lines all responsible, loving fathers use. Now here's the analogy - This part is not my own idea; I heard it before I was ready to think about it, so I don't recall to whom it should be attributed: Suppose my daughter captures the attention of two valiant and wealthy princes. They both poetically pledge their unfailing love, promise her great riches and depict a beautiful happily-ever-after. However, one of the princes, all though he assures her that their life together would be absolutely perfect, has also added a caveat to his promises. If she should fail to choose him, he will hold her in a gruesome place while he subjects her to unimaginable torture. So, which prince do you warn your daughter against? This story may only be useless human reasoning - but it may also explain why some people can at least articulate a distrust of the God of the Christians. Or, could eternal torment in hell be a wicked plan devised by Satan to make God look like evil?

12/9/2009 8:10:59 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

"We all agree God is God - His ways are higher than ours. We need to learn His ways." That's all there is to it. I agree with you 100 mrspiggy. I have been researching the phrase "eternal fire" as given in the scriptures I quoted above. The greek is aionios pyr which can also be translated everlasting flames. I believe this refers to the lake of fire and the second death. Given Luke 16:19-31 Hades (which is defined as the place of the dead) is real, and one can suffer severe pain by fire there. Given Rev 20:14 Hades will come to an end in the second death. Those dead who are raised from Hades will be judged and if their names are not in the book of life they too will end in the second death. All this tells me that Hades is a temporary location, you can go there after death (before the Judgment), you can suffer there; but, scripture says it will come to an end. It also tells me that people who suffer in Hades may be able to enter into eternal life. Why raise them and judge them if they could not. The fires of Hades may be a purification process, a way of removing impurities.

12/9/2009 11:14:10 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I have so far in my research of the Bible found no indication that unbelievers go to Hades or geena. Nothing to suggest they suffer torment, or pain. Rev 21:8 does state that the unbelieving will suffer the second death and maybe this is where the current view of "eternal torment" for the non believer comes from; if so it is incorrect. My pastor stated in a recent sermon "either way you are going to live forever" in relation to your eternal judgment. I have been searching and still have found no mention in the Bible concerning the immortality of the soul outside of eternal life with Jesus. I would like to discuss this and hell with him. I would also appreciate your thoughts in regards to my new notions of hell.

12/10/2009 11:50:44 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Hi MichaelRix, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make erudite comments on the accuracy of your thoughts regarding hell. We know Bible scholars would laugh at our dialog. However, in my opinion, you've been true to scripture. Your pastor is Biblically required to explain his understanding of hell (1 Peter 3:15). The same is required of us. So, your commitment to research and understanding is commendable. Rather than casually accept what is being taught in church, I find it far better to wrestle with all of the scriptures related to any topic. Whether we eventually join the mainstream or continue with a differing opinion, the process will have strengthened our faith and dedication to examining the scriptures. Yesterday, I referenced one of my favorite (even though he seems to be head-over-heals in love with the concept of traditional hell) bloggers. He frequently states his test for contemplating the validity of ideas, concepts and doctrines is to consider whether they glorify God or whether they diminish the glory of God. In this case, my belief is that all we've discussed does not diminish the glory of God. Instead it glorifies His love and mercy toward His creation!

12/10/2009 1:27:35 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I wonder if Satan's attempt to convince Eve that she would not die if she sinned has anything to do with the perpetuation of that idea for centuries - and that is why most do not believe the wages of sin is actually death and that even the second death is really death? One could never forget New York, New York, the city so nice, they named it twice. But, no one wants to acknowledge unrepentant sin being so dead that it kills twice.

12/10/2009 1:39:10 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Many of the ancient civilizations had afterlife traditions. I always thought the Greek word Hades only referred to their mythological underworld of the dead, which pre-dated the Christian era. I've also wondered if we borrowed some of our hell lore form the Greek Hades. I wonder how accurate the translation of the word Hades is in Revelation 20:14, but it does seem clear that death and whatever Hades is, are both destroyed before the debut of the New Jerusalem. I think Revelations 20 & 21 shed the necessary light on one of the favorite passages of those who believe in eternal torment: Revelation 14:9-11 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." I guess since I insist on so many literal interpretations I have to acknowledge that Satan and his demonic posse will be in eternal torment (they deserve it). Also the smoke from that torment is on-going. However, I can't imagine the Lamb is eternally in the presence of those being burned by sulfur - He has a more pressing engagement to which He must attend. Good thing I believe death and the condemned are destroyed by the fire because I just can't fathom the never-ending party of Revelations 21 going on simultaneously with another event to occupy the Lamb's attention. The old order of things has passed away; it's time to celebrate!

12/10/2009 1:59:04 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, Your last scripture Revelation 14:9-11 got me thinking about Rev 19:20 which depicts the beast and the false prophet being thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur; Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.; and 21:8 ... their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. So it would seem there are three possible outcomes for the human soul; eternal life, eternal death, and eternal torment. Perhaps it would be helpful to have a better understanding of what exactly is meant by the second death, because the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake, whilst the cowardly, the unbelieving, etc are thrown into the same lake but, for them it is called the second death. The greek is deuteros (which means second or second time) and thanatos (which means death, fatal, or died) so second death is a literal translation. The phrase second death is only used in Revelation; it appears nowhere else in scripture. And there is clearly a distinction between being tormented day and night and the second death. This also explains Matthew 25:41 ...Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.; same fire, different outcome. One could argue that after your first death you went to hell so you could go there after your second death. But according to Rev 20:14 there will be no more hell to send you to. Eternal torment is for the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and those whom worship the beast and his image, and receives his mark on the forehead or hand. Or as mrspiggy put it: Hell was created for satan and his imps, not for people. or more to the point eternal torment was created for the devil and his willing and devoted followers.

12/10/2009 10:28:54 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Before accepting Christ as LORD and Savoir we were all dead. We now live because of Him. In Him we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28) So, those who reject life in Him will die the second death. There is no condemnation for thoe who are in Him. (Roman 8:1) Eternal death, fire, sulphur or whatever the punishment may be is for those who have chosen to spend eternity with satan. They will never rest in peace.

12/11/2009 6:37:26 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy, The thought you expressed in your last paragraph is part of what I was disagreeing with from the beginning of this discussion. Do you have a scripture to support your idea that humans, who choose Satan will exist forever with him? Currently, there are people who belong to Satan; he is their god. The model you depict has that scenario rolling along forever. I know it's popular to believe God gives us what we want - heaven or hell. But, if you expand that line of reasoning, in hell Satan and his human followers would continue their party as usual (except they couldn't torment us). In hell, Satan would have a kingdom of his own, with adoring worshipers. That's not exactly what they wanted, but it sure sounds like a win for them! After Jesus returns triumphant, the scenario you describe would permit the continuance of what we have today - two kingdoms existing side by side. That would diminish Jesus' victory. In the end, God does not allow Satan to win anything - not even one of his devotees. When Revelations 21:1-4 says the old order has passed away, I expect that to mean there's no more choosing Satan as god, and no more ruling for Satan. Satan's story ends! It's then all about the reign of Jesus for eternity!

12/11/2009 7:29:01 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Sorry, that verse should have been: Revelation 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

12/11/2009 7:37:48 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

"They will never rest in peace." Hebrews, chapter four.

12/11/2009 8:16:30 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

No Ryan, I don't have a scripture that they exist with him. But, Jude 1:7 states they will be punished with eternal fire.

12/11/2009 8:24:32 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy, You may be right; if you are, you'd be in good company. I'd guess that at least 98 percent of Christianity would back you up on verses such as Jude 1:7 (although, I could not find a Bible translation that resembles your rendition for Hebrews 4:5-6). I wish I had a quorum of Believers who were picking up the same message from the Bible that I'm reading. I'm aware of scriptures that definitively use phrases like "eternal fire", "eternal condemnation", "smoke rising forever and ever". I conclude that these are literal, but that doesn't mean that one who is punished by eternal fire must therefore be punished eternally, or that one who has earned the sentence of eternal condemnation is undeniably being punished every second for eternity. If, in order to fit in with the crowd who'd readily agree with you, I decide that the handful of verses like Jude 1:7 must mean that those who are not saved live on in eternal anguish in eternal fire, then I have another predicament to consider. My problem would be, every time I come across a LIFE versus DEATH verse I'd be wondering whether it was the human writer or God who decided to use "death" as the short version for saying "eternal existence in torment" and what other slang is being used that I'm not getting? I'm guessing that if I counted all the LIFE versus DEATH scriptures and compared them to the number of "traditional hell" verses, I would find that more than 98 percent of them would be in the category of the wages of sin actually being death and immortality only being bestowed on the saved. I rarely flow with the status quo, however, I'd love to be in the mainstream of Christianity. However, on the issue of how God deals with the eternity of His creation, I still see the scriptures adding up in favor of Jesus being the only way to immortality and sin resulting in eternal death. Final score in the battle of two kingdoms: Satan .... 0 Jesus .... infinity

12/11/2009 11:46:42 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, What mrspiggy is refering to as Eternal death, fire, sulphur or whatever the punishment may be is for those who have chosen to spend eternity with satan. They will never rest in peace. is what you pointed out in Rev 14:9-11. This is eternity with satan. My concerns with hell are not in relation to the saved in Christ nor the willing followers of satan, but the lost; those who do not believe. I will give an example: Ghandi, without a doubt a moral, good, kind hearted, peacemaker. He was not a follower of Christ; as such it is believed, he will not be brought into eternal life (I have more researched to do concerning who is actually saved according to the Bible). Will he suffer eternal torment night and day forever? I think no. But many are taught and believe that those who are not saved by Christ will burn forever; this is my concern. Jude 1:7 ...They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. The greek words used in this sentence shine light on what it means. "suffer" the greek is hypecho which means "to experience". "punishment" here is dike which means "punishment with the sence that it is justly deserved" or simply "justice". Finally "fire" pyr which is fire as it relates to flames. So this verse can be understood as " They serve as an example of those who 'experience the justice of eternal flames'. As I mentioned before this verse does not state that they will be tormented eternally in fire. I know many people who are concerned about the unsaved. They are not worried about them missing out on eternal life with Jesus, they are worried about them burning forever in hell.

12/11/2009 12:04:22 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Let me be perfectly clear. I do NOT believe that any person will burn eternally. At least not as we know the word "burn" to mean. As I stated before, I believe hell to be "separated from God". I believe that the unbeliever will "burn" in their desire to be with God. I also do not believe that Ghandi is in hell. i believe he is seated next to Mother Teresa.

12/11/2009 7:21:37 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MichaelRix, I am not concerned about the unsaved burning in hell or missing out on eternal life with Jesus. I am concerned with them missing out on THIS life with Jesus. Eternal life is just the icing on the cake so to speak. Jesus came to bring life to us while we are here on earth. His prayer is that we experience heaven here on earth. Remember, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done." He meant here on earth. Besides, you shouldn't get too caught up on heaven. It will only be a 7 year vacation. Then, we come back to earth to live with the Savior. Here's one for you to research: When did Jesus say He was taking anyone to heaven? He said, "In my Father's house there are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. So that where I am, you may be also." John 14:2-4

12/11/2009 7:35:51 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs. Piggy, You've told me a few times that I care too much about what other people think. I guess I've never taken the time to tell you I can see several degrees of truth in your assessment. In this case, because I do care what you think, I'm very relieved to read your following statements: I do NOT believe that any person will burn eternally. I also do not believe that Ghandi is in hell. i believe he is seated next to Mother Teresa. I could harp all night over the points on which we disagree, but it's preferable to close the day with some sweet harmony. Tonight, we could both be singing the theme to Fame (yes, I've heard the song but, never knew there was a movie) and drift off to sleep knowing we're going to live forever!

12/11/2009 9:15:56 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Bless you mrspiggy, and bless you Ryan. Truely the Kingdom of Heaven is within us, and we have the promise of Jesus through John that one day it will be on the Earth. I think I am going to talk with my pastor concerning this. In the mean time I am going to try and find out where the concept of eternal torment in the fires of hell comes from; it must have a source. When I have done some more research I will share it in this discussion. Michael Lane, I would appreciate and value your views concerning, the doctrine of hell, my notions of hell, and the discussion so far.

12/11/2009 9:44:13 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Here are some links to websites that discuss the origin of eternal torment and what hell is biblically. http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455 http://www.hell-know.net/ http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/popular_beliefs/4.pdf http://www.detailshere.com/hellaseternaltorment.htm http://30ce.com/jesusonhell.htm

12/11/2009 11:12:12 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

My apologies Gents, My focus has not been on hell, EVER. I'm more into the "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven" kinda person. That's why I believe Ghandi is seated next to Mother Teresa. They were both seeking the kingdom of heaven and God's righteousness. Many people knock Ghandi because he was not a Christian, but neither was Abraham, Issac or Jacob.

12/12/2009 10:38:52 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

MichaelRix, You asked for my opinion of this discussion. I'll tell you - this is the kind of passionate, intelligent, respectful debate I always desired to happen on Delve Into Jesus. I'm delighted that you started the conversation, and I am grateful to all of you for so earnestly trying to understand this difficult topic. I cannot claim to have made the kind of in-depth study of the Scripture that has already made it's way into this discussion, so all I can offer is my opinion on the subject. Again, this is not based on Scripture - it is based on extra-Biblical studies and my own attempt to rationalize the idea of eternal punishment with a loving God - therefore it has basically no value at all. But since you asked.... I agree with C.S. Lewis, who envisioned Hell as a prison which is locked from the inside, and where any torture and punishment is self-inflicted. God has provided this option for those who choose to spend eternity apart from Him. The best treatment of this subject I have found is in Lewis's The Great Divorce. My best attempt at summarizing this view can be found in this article I agree with Mrs. Piggy that although it is natural to have curiosity about this subject (I started this website precisely to talk about subjects such as these!), it is best not to spend too much time dwelling on it. I think it is deliberate that the Gospels tell us next to nothing detailed about Heaven or Hell. God wants to share the least we need to know about these topics - Heaven is amazing beyond our comprehension, Hell horrible in the same degree. To go into more detail in Scripture would further cause us to speculate and debate, when all we truly need to know - what is really important - is to love and follow Jesus.

12/12/2009 11:36:35 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Michael Lane, Thank you for your thoughts and I am most interested to read that book by C.S. Lewis. I enjoyed his fiction book series "The chronicles of narnia". I am a questions need answering kind of guy. After I posted my concerns of hell I started researching the Bible for the answer. The concordance my pastor bought me has been an invaluble resource. When he learned I was actively studying my Bible he applauded my effort and bought me the concordance out of his own money. He is a very good man. Thank you Michael Lane for this website; I found it when I was starting to question my faith in God and I find it refreshing to discuss Biblical doctrine in an open atmosphere.

12/13/2009 12:09:44 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

I'm watching a movie on Lifetime. The Jewish lady in the movie just said, "Jews don't believe in hell." I haven't researched this, just posting because it was in he movie. i never heard it before.

12/13/2009 3:05:43 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Relationship! I whole-heartedly agree with Michael Lane's comment: what is really important - is to love and follow Jesus. I think that this type of debate may be one example of the process being more important than the outcome. You can find groups of Christians who will take every possible stance on every subject while wishing for you to adopt their position. However, the personal practice of studying the Word for answers to all of life's questions is what God encourages us to do. Loving and following Jesus could take so much of our time and energy that we never get a chance to cover topics like hell - or your studies may be a form of worship. The invitation to participate in the Rabbi/student, Master/Disciple relationship is an amazing and very personal beckoning to love and follow Jesus. Follow where He leads you!

12/14/2009 9:55:56 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Mrs. Piggy, You have a beautiful way of seeking the Kingdom of Heaven! The fortunate will keep their heads filled with the glory of the Kingdom, while others must work for the Kingdom by addressing topics as unfortunate as hell with their families and neighbors. Praise God for your blessed role!

12/14/2009 9:58:15 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

MichaelRix, On Saturday, I spent about twenty minutes reviewing two of the websites you mentioned. The whole time I had a guilty feeling, like I was visiting illicit sites that would corrupt my thinking. Too late! I agreed with everything I read. However, for some reason I didn't feel like looking into to these sites too intensely. It wasn't until yesterday, while my pastor was deep into tripping over a reference to life in hell during a sermon about Jesus, the Light and the Life, when I felt a comforting wave of gladness to know there are other Christians who see this issue the way I do. At the same time, I also felt like I was sitting right where I was supposed to be - in front of a vast sea of bobble heads and wondering why mine is the only one not nodding in agreement. Thanks for sharing your views and enthusiasm!

12/14/2009 10:00:33 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Michael Lane, I'm confident Jesus has your ministry on the correct trajectory to be determined only by Him. But, I hope that path does include delving more deeply, than the writings of C.S. Lewis, into to the topic of hell. Lewis was absolutely brilliant and inspired - on many topics, including hell. However, as much as he must have enjoyed elucidating insightful ways to explain many concepts, he never intended for his musing to be anyone's final word on a subject. Rather, he sought to spark more debate. I agree, the Bible does not spell out many details on hell, but perhaps the Holy Spirit has a thing or two on the matter He'd personally like to teach you during a romp through scripture. You're blessed with a keen ability to communicate with younger generations - hell is a topic on which they are seeking answers. Also, I predict that at least one of your children will come to you demanding straight answers on hell while only accepting what you can point to from the Bible. In Heaven, you and Lewis will have all the answers, but I imagine any cerebral chats you'd have with him would be all the more fun when you can cite references to what Jesus taught you.

12/14/2009 10:02:23 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I declined to enter this debate until asked precisely because I am not well-read or well-studied on this topic. As I said in my post, what I offer is my opinion only. I don't intend to substitute Lewis' views for my own - I just happen to agree with him on this. On certain other topics, I don't. I don't apologize that I have not made an in-depth study in Scripture on this topic since time has not permitted me to do so, but I hope to correct that some day as the Spirit leads me.

12/14/2009 10:11:53 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Ryan, Again you have allowed us an opportunity to catch a glimpse of your intellect. Thank you for your compliment. I realize it comes at the expense of your declaration of others who must seek the kingdom through the discussion of hell. I do not have the luxury of seeking the topic of hell. I have treated my Bible as a take-out menu and decided I will have an extra order of "Just believe" Luke 8:50 and a large order of "enter my rest" Hebrews 4:3. As Arsin stated, it's more about Love. Jesus did not spend a great deal of time on the subject, so I haven't either. He is suppose to be our example, right? I delight in the discussion as it is a sound question to ask. What about hell? I think we all agree we don't want to go eternally or for a short visit. I am proud of you that you don't just accept what your pastor says without valid scrpitural proof. I wait reading his answers to you. I commend you for not being a "bobblehead". Stay true to yourself. If God be for you, who can be against you?

12/14/2009 10:40:39 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan, If God be for you, who can be against you? Continue to seek the kingdom in your own way. All who seek, find. I look forward to reading your post on the pastor's answers. Thank you for another glimpse into your intellect.

12/14/2009 10:47:34 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Michael, I admire how you follow where the Holy Spirit leads you! Before encountering DIJ, I had very little experience with that concept - you've provided a consistent example of willingness and practical application! As for time - it is just one of several of your personal resources you've generously given through DIJ! Thanks!

12/14/2009 12:36:38 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I found a few more verses which seem to refer to "hell" Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50 both show that all who do evil or the wicked will be thrown into fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. These verses have been used to justify the notion of eternal torment in fire. As with many of the other verses mentioned in this discussion I do not see anywhere in these verses where it says the wicked are in eternal torment; only that they are cast into fire. Also it is interesting to note the phrase where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth is somewhat misleading. where is ekei which means: there, or, in a place where. When the verse is read this way it gives a different view. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, in a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This does not suggest that those who are thrown into the fire are weeping and gnashing teeth only that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth where the fiery furnace is.This could very well be the saved weeping, or Jesus and/or God Himself weeping: Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Matthew 18:12-14 is another example. It gives God no pleasure when we die; die not suffer eternal torment. I am still researching the origins of the brimstone and eternal torment doctrine presently taught.

12/15/2009 7:15:18 AM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

Michael Lane, Thank you for "The Great Divorce" though the book is fiction it has settled my questions on this topic. It is clear to me now that hell, whatever it may be, is a choice we each make.

2/2/2010 12:04:05 PM by MichaelRix, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2009

HA HA HA lol would any one go to hell looking for GODS love????? lol you must be kidding lol

2/11/2010 1:37:27 PM by annieyea, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/13/2010

GODS LOVE FOR MAN IS ON THE CROSS. NOT IN HELL .... :)WE WE ADAM AND EVES ALWAYS LOOKING IN WRONG PLACES LOL

2/11/2010 1:40:46 PM by annieyea, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/13/2010

I used to be confused on this subject too, until I came across some real biblical teaching on this subject and not based on church legends so to speak... I've found alot of things that get taught at church arn't biblical in certain denominations. This is the best site tallking on this subject that I personaly have found. When we look at the biblical explaination about Hell, we find God's love is so much grander with the biblical truth version. I hope this helps :) http://www.truth-about-hell.com/page3.htm

8/12/2011 12:47:04 AM by Awake4Truth, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/11/2011

I'm just now catching up on this fascinating discussion. One thing I would like to mention regards the concept of God being the "only immortal thing." The way I've always read this is that God is the only being who has a choice in the matter. We are immortal, but at His pleasure. We can die, if He so chooses. He is the only one who can not die.

8/12/2011 6:30:01 AM by jjhogan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/6/2009

I think that you've done right to recognize the different distinctions of the word death here. The first death is the physical one that we all go through, because of the nature of this fallen world. Christianity never claims to save anyone from that death, so I think we can shift focus to the second death here. The Bible says that this second death occurs when people who reject God are sent to hell. They are there for eternity, and so I can see why you have trouble with that idea and the concept of them dying. I think it can be explained like this. When people go to hell, they are literally separated from God completely. They lose all contact with Him, and are unable to feel His love at all. Because God is the source of all love, joy, and happiness, the people in hell are completely devoid of all of that. They truly have no real life left within them. They don't die in the sense that we think of on earth. They don't cease to exist. When people on earth die, they don't cease to exist. Their spirit still lives on to face judgment before God. Likewise, when people die spiritually, they still continue existing, albeit in an incredibly terrible and evil existence. The pain that they experience in hell is self inflicted, coming from their own hatred and despair. It isn't God inflicting torture on them. He's giving them what they want. They wanted to be completely cut off from God forever, and so He gives them their wish. It results in what we can only really describe as death, where they no longer experience any form of joy or pleasure. They don't cease to exist, I think the Bible is clear there. At the moment, my mind goes to The Lord of the Rings. I think of the Ringwraiths, servants of the Dark Lord Sauron that have lost their physical form, being bound to his service without any real life to them, but still unable to completely die. (Sorry if you haven't read the books/seen the movies, that might make that analogy a bit confusing). Now, I certainly do not claim to be an expert in this area, and as you can see I have made more references to a fiction novel than God's Word, but this is the impression that I have gotten over the years.

8/31/2011 8:24:17 PM by Scott, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/9/2008

Scott, Our mainstream Christian leaders - and I don't mean Tolkien and Lewis - present too much confusion on hell and they never come close to attempting to answer their critic's questions. I suspect you can love God far better than I do - and still base your hell beliefs on what you've picked up from fiction writers and the mumbo jumbo from the many recent books my Christian Heroes are churning out on the subject of hell. However, for me, to love God means I can't pin the traditional hell rap on Him if I can't personally find the evidence for eternity in hell in the Holy Scriptures. For me - because traditional hell is tied to the defining of God's character, it is far too important of an issue for me to accept the musings of guys peddling books - and even the ancient scholars. I wish they all could point me to the seeing the matter in a more traditional way but, they only spotlight increasing rational for my belief that they are misinterpreting Scripture. For much of the unbelieving world - and even for many believers like me - traditional hell kicks out the essential underpinnings of Christianity. Whatever the Truth is on hell, we should be better at explaining it to the unbelieving world because they definitely see our self imposed contradictions. For example: Did Jesus really pay the complete penalty for our sins if we trust Him as Savior? No! Not according to the hell you described. Jesus is not now and will never be eternally separated from God and writhing in the pain of that separation, to pay the deserved penalty for my sin - which is the penalty you prescribe (contrary to Romans 6:23). Did Jesus really conquer the grave? Big deal; according to your hell, there never was a grave built that could hold any of us. A resurrected Jesus? Who cares; we all have immortality. You have no problem accepting that man has an immortal soul. I can read several scriptures that tell me man does not have an immortal soul. Can you cite anything from Scripture that does the immortality of man trick for you? Since I'm no expert, I've put that question to several of our most prominent Evangelical leaders. The truly smart ones know better than to waste any time on me. However, if the devious side of my nature ever gets the best of me, I'd publish a collection of the kwazy replies I've gotten from self-described authorities with a stated calling to preach on the subject of immortal souls in hell. I don't think I would ever really out any of these ministers and I can at least feel useful in that I have helped a couple of them better define their hell shtick. Unfortunately much confusion remains. Case in point: I'm sure you've experienced those who have preached that Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. I battled at length with one prominent pastor who presides over a nationally influential ministry in the US, who stood by - in print and video - his belief of the popular notion above. I eventually convinced him that although a lot of ideas on hell may be subjective; this one is just a matter of simple counting. When the poor hell-loving dude finally agreed to count Jesus' references on hell and heaven he admitted his error on this point. Fresh off that success, I quickly encountered an internationally famous pastor who was spewing the same hooey on Jesus was more about hell than heaven. So, I brought this need to personally count the scriptures to his attention and I received some fascinating replies. I was surprised he'd spend so much time writing to me but, he was adamantly refusing to spend any time counting the verses himself. Apparently, I'm headed for his version of hell because I dared to ask that he defend his beliefs on hell. Those emails are keepers - I hope I have the good sense to forever keep them to my self! Regrettably, the first pastor I mentioned, who did admit to needing to get better at teaching on the subject, has refused to answer any of my questions - based on Scripture alone - about immortal souls in hell. Even though one of his stated goals is to train other pastors, he has also refused to begin teaching against what he formerly taught about Jesus' preference for addressing hell. All the recent, popular hell books are no better at shining any light on the subject - they all cover the same expected verses with the same hell-blind mindset. They never attempt to refute how others can read those same passages and see something totally different. I realize we all cannot see what we don’t see; but, I can at least fathom where they are coming from. They however, form their argument against people who believe differently form their misunderstanding of their enemies' viewpoint and then attack what they only think others believe. Scott, I know you love God. Based on your love for God, would you consider whether the type of hell you're pushing here can be supported by your own personal research in the Bible? In your love for God, if you can find one shred of possible evidence - in the Holy Word of God - that the punishment of sin may not be eternal torture in hell, would you agree that it is safer, more respectful to God, not to communicate that type of hell to others? Like salvation, hell is way too important of an issue to leave up to just accepting what popular others say on the matter. Salvation is a personal relationship between you and your Savior. Defining the character of your Savior - with notions on hell - is too personal of a relationship matter for the two of you - to casually form your descriptors of Him based on what others think. I realize that many zealous believers insist that God, through His Word, has given them their traditional hell beliefs - I can respect that. I'll respect you too for sincerely believing what ever conclusions you come to on the matter. However, please consider if your "impression that I have gotten over the years" is sufficient enough for you to use in depicting God to your generation. They need some clarity on this issue - I'm betting you can deliver.

9/1/2011 8:17:18 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

You have raised some excellent points here, and I do want to go deeper into this topic. At the moment, my personal life has temporarily gotten in the way, so it may be a couple of days before I can get back to you on these things. I'll spend Saturday reading through the Bible, seeing what I can find based on this topic, and I should have some sort of response by Sunday evening. I just wanted to let you know so that you didn't think I was ignoring this issue like other people you have spoken about. Now, I'll just make one quick point before I go to bed here. There are a couple of premises that we're working with when we discuss the doctrine of hell: 1. God is by nature a perfect judge, and cannot ever give someone a punishment that they don't deserve 2. Hell (whatever it's nature) is the place where the punishment for sinners is carried out 3. Hell is an awful place to be, regardless of if you suffer punishment there for a brief time before a final death, or if you suffer there for eternity 4. Based on premise 3, we know that the main thing we need to get across on hell is that people really shouldn't go there, and they need Jesus in order to stay out - this gives us a motivation to help people develop a personal relationship with God, so that we can help to keep them away from that terrible place 5. Based on all of the above premises, we have enough for a basic understanding of hell. Anything else that we are able to figure out will only add detail to what we know, and does not present any game-changing information. The basic formula for salvation is still the same. The details that we figure out about hell from this point on are only for our own better understanding, and help to give us even more of a reason to convince people to keep away from it. Discussions on it's nature, even if we really don't get to the root of what it is, shouldn't have a real effect on our normal Christian faith. If there isn't enough information in the Bible to get a conclusive description of hell, then it may be because what information we are given should be sufficient to convince us that we do not want to go there. So, from here on out, the motivation for our discussion about hell is our own personal curiosity, and we shouldn't need to worry too much about what we determine. The basic nature of hell is still the same, and we both know that whatever it is we really don't want to be there. Our discussion is only trying to help us understand it better, and shouldn't have a major effect on the rest of the Christian faith that we have. I'll spend some time over the next few days going into my Bible about all this, and I'll let you know what I find out.

9/1/2011 10:17:21 PM by Scott, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/9/2008

Ok, I've managed to find several verses that support the idea of eternal punishment in hell, rather than temporary punishment. Here they are: 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Revelation 14:11 Daniel 12:2 Matthew 3:12 Matthew 18:8 Matthew 25:41 Now, granted, the majority of these talk about an eternal fire, not eternal punishment. I would argue that it is not a far leap of faith to say that the fire is eternal because the people in it (at least Satan and his demons) are eternal beings as well. I cannot be certain here either way, but I'm going to stick with the idea that people do endure eternal punishment in hell. I've also noticed that many people have a problem with the idea that God sends people to hell for eternity, even if we would describe them as "good people" in general. When you compare these people to God's standards however, which is absolute perfection, there is nobody who is good enough to get into heaven. Romans 3:23 lays this out rather clearly. So, because God is perfectly just and cannot allow any evil being to reside in heaven, by His own nature He cannot allow people into heaven who have not gotten in through Jesus. He is being perfectly fair here. Would someone who rejects Jesus even want to be in heaven with Him? It would seem odd for God to force rebels who hate Him to live with Him for ever. In the end He gives them what they wish, which is absolute separation from their Creator. I can't imagine that it would be pleasant. Actually, I would describe it as absolute hell. But that is what people choose. For us humans here on earth, it may seem incredibly harsh to let people go to hell for eternity. I expect though that whenever we do die and enter into eternal life with our Creator, we'll understand completely why things have to be this way, and we will be able to agree with God's perfect judgments. We'll be able to tell for certain then whether or not punishment in hell involves eternal, conscious pain and torment. As it is now, when people ask us what hell is like, we can simply respond by telling them that it's not worth finding out first-hand. The nature of hell is terrible regardless of the amount of time spent there. We shouldn't be telling people about hell to "scare them into salvation" anyways. It just doesn't seem genuine. People should certainly be aware that hell actually exists (which I think is incredibly important to get across to people), but I don't think we need to be preaching fire and brimstone into their faces. The concept of separation from God should be enough to convince people of the danger of hell, and they should really be focusing on God when they become a Christian. If they only adopt the faith because they hope to get out of eternal fire, but not because of any real love for God, then they may still be at risk of receiving the judgment that they sought to avoid. Again, all of these details about hell seem to me to be more of a theological curiosity than a doctrinal concept necessary for salvation. Once people get the basics I think that should be good. Trying to find out the nature of hell is something to do in our spare time, but I don't think we should lose any sleep over it. As long as we do what we can to keep people out of it, we're on the right track.

9/4/2011 6:23:09 PM by Scott, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/9/2008

Scott, Thanks for trying; you are a good sport! However, I'm disappointed! I was hoping you would read all and research all with no preconceived notions. You didn't even cover the debate of Biblical proof that man has an eternal soul - which is the starting point for an eternal hell. The immortality of the human soul is a concept you accept as fact - then you view all else through the prism of that perceived fact. Not everyone has that ability. Or, as I prefer to phrase it, not everyone has your baggage. It is easy enough to search "immortality" and "immortal" on Bible Gateway to find several verses that, if taken on face value, say that the soul possessed by man is not immortal. Furthermore, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternity is only possible through Jesus. You can also count many verses where God asks humanity to simply choose between life and death. There is also the famous, start of it all, Geneses conflict where God decided He needed to do something about the unchecked possibility of man being immortal like Him. There is also the often debated verse, Matthew 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. I asked a popular Evangelist why we could not just accept Jesus' word that both body and soul would meet the same fate in hell based on this verse. He got his Greek expert to send me a lengthy article on why the word translated as "destroy" in this verse did not mean "die". Unfortunately for the hell loving Evangelist and his expert, the scholarly article did say, when studied to the end, that the word translated "destroy" (as in destroy soul in hell) could be, and had been translated as "die" in the physical sense - in other scriptures but, just "doubted" that was the intended meaning in this verse. I believe the fire is eternal and punishment is eternal - as in forever. In my opinion, none of these verses you supplied say that the punishment is eternally on-going - which is a big difference to me. Again, Jesus paid the sin penalty for us completely but, He is not paying an eternally on-going payment of torture or separation from God. The concept of Jesus paying our FULL penalty for our sin is essential to Christianity. Either Jesus did it all - or we can't trust He did enough. After shaking off all the conflicting - from Catholic to Protestant - hell hooey. I think I can only accept that Jesus meant that body and soul meet the same final and forever destruction - as in death - fate in hell. Unless God would personally show me otherwise and give me full permission to frame His character with "hell". I am fond of using the term "eternal damnation" when speaking of the penalty for those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior. It's a phrase that is relished by the hard core hell lovers and it also appeases those who believe the wages of sin really is just plain old death. Eternal damnation is Biblical! Is the immortality of the human soul Biblical?

9/4/2011 7:28:03 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Sorry; but, I must take it yet another giant hop, skip and jump farther. To believe in traditional hell not only declares that Jesus did not pay the full penalty for sin - it also decimates the LOVE of God. Because God so loved us, He sent Jesus to die for us - to pay the full penalty for our sins so that we could forever be reconciled to Him in His love. If the true penalty for sin is indeed eternal suffering in hell - then Jesus never has, or will, pay this penalty for us - and God did not love us to the extent of sacrificing His utmost to redeem us with the appropriate, lawful propitiation. Why not just accept God's word on the wages of sin is just death and the Second Death is just death too? Then, we can marvel in God's love and complete atoning sacrifice that results in the gift of eternity with Him!

9/7/2011 5:35:23 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

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