I just wanted to know everyone's interpretation on Salvation and is it something that I can 'lose'? Once 'saved' always 'saved'? Also, is it possible for someone to "question" my salvation because I'm not living according to what they think is approved by God? Just some thoughts...

9/10/2009 6:40:35 AM by edwinarj24, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/10/2009

It's a great question. My belief is that no one can lose their salvation once they have truly understood what it means to be saved, and have asked Jesus to save them based on that understanding. I base this on John 10:29, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." I also take this to mean that we cannot snatch ourselves out of His hand, so to speak, nor will He ever let go. I've been on the lookout for years for a stronger verse than this to prove the point, but have been unable to find anything. I hope some of our other members can suggest that.

Now, here's the part that will get me into trouble. A few months ago, I wrote a devotional which gave the message that not all who think they are saved are actually saved, and that the way to know is by the evidence of our changed lives. A few people took this to mean that I felt that we could earn our salvation - not at all. Truly only God saves, and it is a free gift that we can never earn. I do believe, however, that those who have truly understood and accepted the gift will show outward signs of it. This is well supported by the parable of the seed which falls on the good earth.

If you're interested, the devotional is here:

http://delveintojesus.com/Devotionals/37/One-Answer.aspx

I've digressed a little...but yes, in my opinion salvation can never be lost once it has been truly accepted.

9/11/2009 5:21:32 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Hi edwinarj24,

I agree with Michael - you cannot lose your salvation!

I think the verses he quoted is probably the most succinct explanation. However, here are a few more points with scriptures to consider.

You were called to come to Jesus for salvation. Jesus started and will finish your salvation. After believing, you were sealed with a promise of salvation:

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory.

I Corinthians 12:3 . and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As for your other question:

Also, is it possible for someone to "question" my salvation because I'm not living according to what they think is approved by God?

Others can and will question everything - some will do so in a spirit of love and concern for you, if they don't see the fruit of faith in your life. I believe you can be assured of your salvation, even while others are unsure:

Romans 10:9-13
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentilethe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

If you think you may not have appropriately believed and confessed Jesus to be your Savior - you can certainly do it now! Jesus is always pursuing us!

Hebrews 10:21-23
and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

All Christians make huge mistakes; repentance is an ongoing process. Fortunately we are saved because of what Jesus did - not what we do:

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

God declares us to be righteous because of Jesus' righteousness:

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Being assured of salvation and knowing that you are considered righteous because Jesus is righteous should make you long to turn away from sin and produce good results in your life:

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Galatians 5:16-17
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

The work of a Christian is to seek God by devoting your life to prayer, Bible study, worship and serving:

2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Living the Christian life is exciting - the fruit of faith is so much more fulfilling than anything sin can offer. If you are not experiencing that fruit, I think it is likely due to not seeking God with your whole heart.

It's wonderful that you are looking for answers to your questions - we believe this is a result of the Holy Spirit urging you to grow in your Christian walk. Because God loves you, He desires to be closer to you and is asking you to seek Him!

I would really enjoy reading updates on what God is doing in your life and how you are responding!

9/11/2009 2:36:27 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

What about?:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I know from experience that if a backslider truly repents God is merciful and forgives them and helps them turn around and live for him so how do we understand this verse?

Is it saying that someone can really seem that they are a Christian maybe even to themselves and then turn out not to be by their fruits?

Though I haven't fully understood it I have found that verse helpful as a real warning that sin is serious and not to meddle with it.

9/12/2009 4:58:11 AM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

I also just wanted to comment on what you said about others questioning your salvation because you're not living according to what THEY (my capitalisation) think is approved by God:

My advice (others may correct me!!!) would be search the word and your conscience. If you believe you're doing what God wants then that is good. Acts 5:29 says we must obey God rather than men.
1 Corinthian 10:23-33 talks about how some things are a matter of conscience and we should do what we believe is right even if others disagree.

I have been warned before (wrongfully at the time but it has still been helpful advice on future occasions!) that our hearts (sinful nature/flesh) are deceitfully wicked and that often we might try and justify something to ourselves that isn't right.

So I just think if you do have doubts about your lifestyle then pray seriously and humbly before God about it, asking that he will reveal His will. I believe the Holy Spirit does lead God's children, either giving them peace when they are in God's will or causing them to feel unsettled when they are not.

9/12/2009 5:19:06 AM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

I recall that David asked God to search his heart. I frequently ask God to search my heart and to reveal my selfish or mislead desires. It keeps me focused on God's will and not my own. As to others questioning your salvation just keep in mind that none knows our hearts and minds like the Lord, even we ourselves may not know them as well. The Holy Spirit will let us know when we stray, but can He let us know if we are not really children of God? I believe that if we have not really given our lives over to Christ that we will feel a need to do something about it. In other words, we may think we are Christ's, but the Holy Spirit will give us some nudging that we are in need of salvation. This is not the same as when we feel the need for repentance, which will come any time we have sinned as a child of God. Another thought is that we would not even be worried about our salvation if Christ wasn't already in our heart. When I was a sinner and lost to the Lord, salvation was the furthest concern from my thoughts. It was only after I knew Christ that my salvation became an issue in my mind. Once It was an issue, I had no choice but to act on it and to joyfully give my life over to Jesus. Do I question it every now and then? Of course, but I simply have a heart to heart with Jesus and it all becomes crystal clear.

Blessings upon you!

9/13/2009 12:01:39 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

I respectfully disagree with Michael,

The scripture that Clair quoted in Hebrews 6:4-6 is proof that one can lose your salvation.
Also

The words "Blot out" indicates that the name was written in the Book of Life. The only way one's name gets into the Book of Life is when they are saved.

So someone can lose their salvation, but only by a willfull act of rejection of God. To agree with Michael about true salvation, if you are truly saved with evidence of a changed life and the fruits of the Spirit in your life and you willfully decide to reject your Salvation and God, and you persist in this rejection, you will lose your Salvation.

9/13/2009 3:57:50 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Sorry, the missing scripture I quoted is in

Rev 3:5(NIV) He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

9/13/2009 3:59:25 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

Chrisv,

I always appreciate your thoughtful and respectful posts.

I think it all comes down to how much you believe we are free to accept and reject salvation, and how much that decision is preordained. I'm sure you can see how someone who believes that salvation is in God's hands alone -- that man has no ability to accept or reject it except as given him by God -- could never lose this salvation.

I've always believed that salvation is both completely ours to choose or reject, and simultaneously completely under God's control. This seems like a contradiction, but it's the only explanation which provides for God's sovereignty and our free-will, both of which are well documented in scripture. I've argued this at length in other discussions, so I'll not go into it again here.

Based on that conviction, I maintain that we cannot lose our salvation, for although the part that we play in our own salvation is fallible, the part that God plays is not. Once God has done his part, which is to say that God has chosen us to be saved, that choice cannot be undone by anyone.

I don't see that the verses in Hebrews contradict this. The main component of our role in salvation is faith. It's not "enlightenment" or "tasting the goodness" or anything else listed in those verses. It's faith in Christ -- who He is, what He did and who we are in relation to Him. If we have this faith, then I don't believe we can fall away. God will not let us. But if we have the enlightenment and taste the goodness and still that does not produce faith, that is when it might be impossible for them to be brought back.

I realize that this is equivalent to saying that if someone seemed to have been a Christian but then later rejects it, then they must not have had true faith. I don't like looking at it that way because it's dangerously close to the notion that if someone prays to be healed and is not, then they must not have had faith, an concept which I reject. Nevertheless, that's my take on it.

9/16/2009 5:07:12 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Michael,

I think the best we can do here is to agree to disagree. The thing that makes humanity interesting is the fact that people have free will and hence have different opinions over things.

It would be interesting though to get some of the others to comment on the issue

9/16/2009 2:40:05 PM by Chrisv, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/12/2009

I think you can lose your salvation. 99 of the time, I've found that Michael and I have the same theological perspective and I see what he is trying to say. It is important to acknowledge the power of God's will in our salvation but as I understand it--and correct me if I'm wrong--God enables us from our depraved state to receive his gift of salvation. It is then our choice to accept it...or not. Verses!:

John 15:1-6 emphasis added (although the entire chapter is great stuff and is worth reading again)
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesa so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Galatians 5:19-21
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Obviously, these two passages have positive sides as well when you read the entire chapter. However, it would seem that the general point is that if we do not live our Christian lives as we should, we will be cast aside. We can, however, be "regrafted" into Christ (Romans 11:11-22 talking about Israel). In my opinion, I think the "once a Christian, always a Christian" is a cop-out for people who want to be sure of their salvation, but don't want to live the Christian life.

9/18/2009 8:38:33 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

XFrogger - I can see how you formulated your closing comments. I bet we could both identify those types who seemed to pray the sinner's prayer and then live like it's just their fire insurance policy.

Not only are there those professing Christians who don't seem to care about living the Christian life, but there are also those proper pious sorts who don't appear to do any wrong, except they don't seem to exhibit any love either.

The latter are the ones I think of first when I read scriptures like the one you referred to or ones in which Jesus proclaims He never knew the person calling out His name.

But, after a while of outing both types of these folks, we'd probably begin to feel guilty for judging them for perhaps being somewhere in their journey with God to which we are having trouble relating - no doubt because we've come so far ourselves.

However, here is some contrast to consider:

Perhaps, the one who believes his salvation is absolutely assured may actually be among Gods most obedient sons.

I gather you are not a father at this point in your story, Xfrogger; nevertheless, (maybe because you are in fatherhood training) I'm sure you can identify with the type of obedience a parent desires most from his children.

A parent may be amused by a child who tows the line in order to get a toy or a reprieve on bedtime. However, after a couple years under the child's belt, that type to behavior is no longer cute. Later, I'm sure a father is severely disappointed with a child who is motivated to do what his father wants mainly because he desires to inherit the family estate.

Conversely, every father is enthralled - beaming with pride - when his child obeys because the child's only goal is to bring joy to his father.

I dont think God is pleased by those by those who feel the salvation mission has been accomplished so they're free to self destruct. I also think God is worried about those who feel that their eternity is precarious so they must hyper-vigilantly strive to do something to make sure salvation sticks - maybe that something is something Jesus could not, or would not, do for them.

Then, there are those who think that it is their works which earn their salvation; sure, they may mouth that it is Jesus that saves their butt, but then they add the famous buts to whatever else they believe must be added to what Jesus did to save them.

However, those who believe that salvation is God's work - once saved always saved - really may wholeheartedly desire to live a holy life.

Why? Because they feel the full implication of God's love and grace in their life. They are inspired and enabled to live in love due to the love God first showed toward us. That love is demonstrated through awe and obedience.

Christians of various beliefs love God - and surely this love pleases God.

I'm not trying to say any person or belief is more highly valued by God.

What I am trying to highlight is that the person who believes God has worked out, and has guaranteed, his salvation - yet his main goal is to serve God with a holy life - has no other motivation to do so, other than - love for God.

Those Christians do exist.

One who believes they have been sealed with God's promise of salvation and yearns to turn his back on riches or unlimited sexual exploits or forgoes anything contrary to God's Word - willing does so because he has a glimmer, a faint taste, of the love God offers.

When one is born again, he is born of incorruptible seed. God is the type of Father who will bring His sons through, no matter what. Only the most lowly human fathers would do any less for their offspring. God is much greater!

Jesus died for the believer's sins - past, present and future. Then He goes a step further by covering the Christian with His righteousness.

When I read all the scriptures pertaining to enduring to the end, running the good race, showing your self approved, etc., I think of rewards bestowed in heaven to those who do the most with what God gave them in regard to understanding talents and working talents.

XFroggger, I'd be happy if you'd consider there may be a much deeper reason - other than the cop out you mentioned - why some would read scripture and conclude the divine greatness of God promises salvation to the believer, despite the humanity of the believer.

9/21/2009 7:29:36 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,
Heh...yes I'm not a father just yet...and no time in the near future.

I think I've been a little jaded since a bunch of people I know have fallen away from the faith. I don't think I can believe they were never Christians from the start which is what leads me to the conclude they have fallen away. This is not to say that they can't be reconciled to God. I also believe that they can.

You said: "When one is born again, he is born of incorruptible seed. God is the type of Father who will bring His sons through, no matter what. Only the most lowly human fathers would do any less for their offspring. God is much greater!"

I really wish it were that easy. The trouble is, that we do fall...and repeatedly. I am not incorruptible (quite far from it), though I wish I were. To take your father example further, I think of how immensely sad God is when people reject him. My cousin recently reminded me of how God is faithful, even when we aren't.

I have and will always respect your opinion from our discussions and I wholeheartedly accept your point that not everyone that concludes salvation can never be lost is using it as a cop out. Thank you for enabling me to see the other side of the coin :).

9/29/2009 10:09:52 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

I believe that when Ryan refers to us as incorruptible seed he is referring to the fact that we are never beyond redemption. Sure, we are fallible to the flesh even after we are born again, but that does not mean that flesh will win out eternally. Once we are born again, God will not let go of us, His grip is not uncertain. He may allow us to stray because of our free will, and He is disappointed when this happens, but He does not relinquish His grip. That which is His remains His for eternity.

Ryan,
As always, it is a joy to read your well thought out and reasoned arguments. I have not been posting much lately and I have missed our discussions. Here's to more of them in the near future.

Blessings upon you!
KC

9/29/2009 10:42:46 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

The reward of the saved is eternal life with Jesus. Eternal life with Jesus starts at the moment one accepts Jesus as Savior.

St. Peter had much to say on this topic, which I take quite literally; in 1 Peter 1:3-9 we are guaranteed:

a new birth into a living hope

an inheritance that can never spoil, perish or fade

which is reserved in Heaven

for those who are shielded by Gods power

(verse 9) we are receiving the salvation of our souls.

Although we are obviously far from perfect in this life, those who have asked Jesus to come into their life have crossed over to life from death (John 5:24). In 1 Peter 1:23 we are assured we are born again of seed that is incorruptible - through God's Word.

Once you have truly been born again, God will never turn His back on you. We may become the prodigal son but, the Father is always waiting - and expecting - that we will return. We forever remain a son to our Father who is Love.

Salvation starts for all of us when God calls us to Him. Throughout our lives, God may need to repeatedly call us back to Him. Of course, there are accounts of prodigals whose sin physically kills them. Perhaps God, in His mercy, calls them home when He can no longer bear the hurt.

We may feel like we are not currently playing the role of the prodigal son, yet we will always share an integral commonality with our backsliding brothers:

If our salvation depends on us - we all perish. If our salvation rests in Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith - we all win.

Our salvation is assured because God sacrificed Jesus to bring His sons to glory and God will not allow that sacrifice to fail one son - God will fully accomplish His purpose!

9/29/2009 8:05:49 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Jesus said, "You have not chosen Me. I have chosen you". We have been chosen and called into relationship with Christ.

Once saved, always saved. However, the way we "walk with Jesus" tells a lot about whether we are saved or not. There is simply no way that we can be touched by the Spirit of God and remain the same.

It's not so much about "earning" salvation as it is about "showing" salvation. The fruit of the Spirit should be evident in every born again Christian. You will know them by their fruit.

"But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, He will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galations5:22)

We show that we are His by loving one another. And the best part of it is He gives us the love to do it.

I agree that as children of the Most High God, we should be obedient based on love and not for stored-up treasures in heaven. In as much as He loved us enough to die for us, we should return the love by living for Him. He has given us every spiritual gift needed to do just that, so there's really no excuse for not living according to His Word.

9/30/2009 8:24:07 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

To answer the question, I don't think you "lose" salvation. But, you can "throw it away".

9/30/2009 8:26:43 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot

10/12/2009 10:03:56 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

This brings to mind the scripture that states he who loses his life for my sake, will find it. Matt. 16:25

10/12/2009 10:57:08 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

A dandy and versatile passage:

Ephesians 1:4-5
For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be
holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be
adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His
pleasure and will.

These verses are often cited to describe God's intricate plan of predestination that specifically includes you to receive salvation - all set in motion before the creation of the world and therefore well before your first and last sin is committed.

These verses also highlight God's great love for you and His design to make you His son; also mentioning that not only is this action His will but, He also takes pleasure in making it happen.

Justification can also be found here because God sees us as holy and blameless - only because of what Jesus has done - not because we produce holy, blameless perfection by keeping ourselves from the tiniest sin - and - regardless of our occasional free-falling into the trough of sin.

It may also be possible to discover an assurance of salvation within this passage too - if while reading it you imagine how only the gloriously predetermined and powerfully loving will of God delivers salvation to the undeserving.

Salvation is all about God's glory and not at all about what we can achieve or fail to achieve.

10/27/2009 11:10:35 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

An intensely reassuring and immensely cheering scripture:

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Salvation is the good work God is most concerned about starting - and completing - in you.

Any other good work God would start in you has no lasting significance if salvation is not completed.

God's good work is ETERNALLY RELEVANT!

11/3/2009 11:15:22 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

i think that you can loose your salvation because yes once you are saved you're always saved but there are some that backslide ! and keep in mind that your salvation is ticket into heaven! People's opinion doe matter that's why when you get into the bible reading daily you will learn to be able to know when people giving you their version of the bible . GOD BLESS!!!

11/25/2009 9:05:36 AM by emoni, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/17/2009

Hello again,

Ryan, thanks for putting Philippians 1:6 in.

I just wanted to share how God used that verse to keep me going.

It was when I was 19 and Satan (or those who work for him) had tricked me by using my belief in predestination against me saying that my lack of assurance of salvation showed that I wasn't a Christian and since God had obviously not answered my prayers to help me stop sinning or to give me assurance then obviously I wasn't a Christian and therefore not elect and if not elect none of my praying would help and I would never be a Christian and therefore my life was worthless because I knew that the only purpose in life is to serve God.

As you can tell that was a very dangerous and potentially fatal mindset to be in. But God sent Christians to help me by speaking the truth and one of those truths that particularly helped me was Philippians 1:6.

I had been very troubled and one night I called an overseas penpal who quoted Philippians 1:6. That night was an intense battle with me crying out to God, and Satan trying to tell me that I couldn't claim that promise because all Christian things in my life were outward shows of Christianity and not actually God's work in my heart. He kept pointing to the sin in my life and my lack of assurance as evidence that God wasn't working in my heart.

The leader of the Christian lgroup at university had seen that I was struggling with something and when she saw I couldn't talk to her (I thought she would see I was a complete hypocrite) so she arranged to take me down the road to talk with her pastor. She ended up not being able to turn up to take me. But I was so desperate for any straws of hope that I walked down to the church myself (even though it was a type of church that my church refered to as synagogues of Satan). God used the pastor at that church (a complete stranger) mightily to give me hope. Later he explained to me that he and his wife had prayed earnestly when they'd heard about me and also after that first visit. Knowing that if he said the wrong thing it might have devastating consequences.

The pastor explained that if I was concerned about where I stood with God that already showed that God was working in my heart, because without God's help a person doesn't care about salvation. He also said that if I had the desire to live a purposeful life for God then that was God's working in my heart. He said that God did want me to know him. He wanted to have a relationship with me. That these workings in my life were already signs of that. I was able to walk from there that day holding onto Philippians 1:6 like it was a life line.

Over the next weeks I was able to see the fruit of that verse as God used the pastor's words each week to fight back the lies that Satan had planted in my head. I was then able to hold onto the simple truths of the word such as Matthew 7:7 as the pastor explained that if I asked God to show me that he was real he would. And he did. The biggest truths were the things that I had taken for granted, things that weren't really honed in on in the church I had been brought up in Like, God is love and loved me, and wanted me to know him, and wanted to use me (in a custom-made way). I was able to see the reality of Philippians 1:6 coming true. Especially the "good" part. Why is it we seem to take for granted to most profound truths such as God's goodness?

11/28/2009 2:08:23 PM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

Also one thing the pastor explained to me was that the gift of eternal life is given to us from the moment we believe. (which Ryan has also already pointed out).I'd always thought of it as something that happened after we died. But I think it gives our life hope and purpose and also makes verses like Philippians 1:6 make a lot more sense when we see it as something we have the moment we have faith in Jesus Christ.

The other thing that helps me is the knowledge that salvation is by grace and viewing salvation not just as an event that has already happened to me (from the moment I believed) but also as a process that is happening, and will happen. And that the complete work from start to finish is God's. (Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith!-Hebrews 12:2 -Yes, Ryan has already quoted this verse too).

(Hebrews 12:1 is also a good reminder of our part in this process).

11/28/2009 2:21:20 PM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

Hi Clair,

I enjoyed reading your posts; thanks for sharing your testimony!

I must have read Philippians 1:6 & Hebrews 12:2 a dozen times before catching on to the magnitude of what these verses are expressing about salvation.

I also identified with your anecdote about how this pastor helped you resolve your dilemma. When I was facing a similar crisis, it was the DIJ website/administration playing the role of the pastor throwing the life line.

The Author and Perfector of our faith writes some very cool stories - which I find to be all the more wonderfully creative when parallel plot lines are discovered!

11/30/2009 1:35:43 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Dear all,

What about Matthew 24:13?

"but he who stands firm to the end will be saved"

12/2/2009 2:36:30 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

"Stands firm" made me think of Psalm 40:2,

"He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
and gave me a firm place to stand."

I think if Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, our Rock, we will stand firm to the end, not in our strength, but in His.

12/2/2009 5:05:47 AM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

I appreciated the last two posts. Clair's response made me think of the hymn, On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand.

Each week at my church, the worship leader selects one old hymn to appease the old-timers who are not down with many of the newer songs, which they describe as shallow and repetitive, repetitive, repetitive.

All of these old hymns are ones I'm either hearing for the first time or being attentive to for the first time. Some of them are better than an entire sermon preached on the same topic.

In addition to On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand, another great one related to this subject is Blessed Assurance.

Thank God for inspiring the older generations of Christians and their tunes that rock my world!

12/3/2009 9:23:33 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Amen I am with you Ryan! I love the old hymns for their depth and richness, their message is timeless! I have enjoyed following you and Clair in this exchange. Both of you have shown great insight and thoughtfulness. Bleesings to you both and Merry Christmas!

12/3/2009 10:16:42 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Blessed Assurance is one of my favourite hymns- (and I believe that it's one of the few hymns that has a melody which does justice to the amazing lyrics! I think it's a shame that most of the old hymns have such dreary melodies...)

I know what you mean, Ryan, about some hymns being better than a sermon... Perhaps my absolute favourite theymn is Abide with Me- it's very much associated with funerals, which is a shame because it's also very much about life and living in Christ- standing firm! That hymn has helped me stand firm through many a trial...

God bless you all

12/4/2009 12:48:46 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Yesterday I was reading 2 Timothy in my Life Applications Bible. While reading chapter 2, I saw a footnote reporting that the following may have been a very early Christian hymn:

2 Timothy 2:11-13
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him, we will also live with him;
If we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;
If we are faithless, he will remain faithful,
For he cannot disown himself.

I realize people could read this and draw differing conclusions. But, to me, it definitely supports the concept that our salvation is in God's hands and we cannot lose it.

Too bad we've lost the music!

12/8/2009 8:15:02 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Lol, quite unrelated to the original topic but in response to Ryan: Why not make up a tune? :)

My brother has been doing a bible college paper that involves memorising scripture, and he finds that sort of memorising very difficult. So he put some of the verses to a beat and tune. My favourite was Galatians 2:20. It was really catchy, and my brother used the bongo drums lol! :D

12/11/2009 3:22:17 AM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

Re hymns:
The other day when I was thinking of Psalm 40:2 the hymn that was in my head at the same time was "He lifted me" (Charles H. Gabriel). Just in case you don't know it (it's not as well known these days as some) here are the lyrics:

1. In loving-kindness Jesus came,
My soul in mercy to reclaim,
And from the depths of sin and shame
Through grace He lifted me.

Refrain:
From sinking sand He lifted me,
With tender hand He lifted me;
From shades of night to plains of light,
Oh, praise His Name, He lifted me!

2. He called me long before I heard,
Before my sinful heart was stirred,
But when I took Him at His word,
Forgivn, He lifted me.

3. His brow was pierced with many a thorn,
His hands by cruel nails were torn,
When from my guilt and grief, forlorn,
In love He lifted me.

4. Now on a higher plane I dwell,
And with my soul I know tis well;
Yet how or why, I cannot tell,
He should have lifted me.

ps. As a child I grew up in a church that only sang old hymns (in the 1990s). I love the 'doctrinalness' (is that a word?) of hymns. I love them because they are often so strongly linked to scriptural passages and themes.

Another hymn that links with the discussion is "It is well with my soul"

12/11/2009 3:37:11 AM by Clair, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/7/2009

I believe that one can absolutely walk away from God, some say God will never let you go; then where is choice?

It's easy to sin when one can say, "all I have to do is repent and I will then be back in God's grace. I believe many people fool themselves and that many will be surprised once Christ returns, after all scripture does in fact say; "Many will say Lord, Lord did we not heal in your name..Did we not cast our demons in your name...And I (Christ) will say away from me you evil doers I know you not".

Churches today teach a watered down version, they over emphasize grace and de-emphasize obedience.

4/4/2011 1:07:35 AM by little rebel, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/4/2011