Due to the multi-faith culture of the UK, healthcare staff are bound by a lot of red tape when it comes to discussing religion with patients. In my work we are pretty much expected to be blank canvasses, never being influenced by our own faith, or showing more favour to people of particular religions. It's like we have two sets of standards/rules, and it can be hard to avoid combining the two. As Christians, we naturally want to pray for people, but the government's increasing obsession with political correctness may result in disciplinary consequences if we offer.

The General Medical Council believes that spiritual/religious support should be the sole responsibility of the healthcare chaplaincy teams.

I found this news article recently

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8129030.stm

Any thoughts/anecdotes anyone?

8/3/2009 6:17:55 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora,

I read the article you referred us to and others linked/related to it.

What a shame to try and separate the Medical world and Religion...it's not that bad here in the USA yet, or if it is, I'm not aware of it.

I have a nurse friend who shares her faith all the time, and even prays with some, and as far as I know she has never had a problem. Of course she doesn't "preach" but does it with great care not to offend....or maybe she just doesn't care what people think...she is so much fun...she grabs the Dr's and dances down the hall with them..She really is full of the Joy of the Lord!!

Where we have the problem is in our schools. My grandchildren are in middle school now and just studied Christianity along side other religions and being referred to as myths!! Yikes...I hated that! And made sure they knew what I thought of it..

My granddaughter took a daily Christian devotional to school and was reading it in literature class to the other students and the teacher ask her to put it away, but at the same time others bringing books like Harry Potter were shared openly...That REALLY mad me angry!!

On the other hand my grandson wore a t-shirt with a great big "GOT JESUS?" on it and no one said a thing.

One of the articles I read there from your post said that a lady got in trouble because she wore a crucifix/cross necklace...is that really a problem?..

As a Christian, I know you have a deep desire to share your faith, and I'm certainly not suggesting that you put in jeopardy your job in any way, but what if you wore a cross necklace, or maybe an angel brooch, so the patients will know you are a Christian so "they" can bring up the subject?

In other words, what if the patient brought up the subject?...or would you always be required to refer them to a Chaplain?

8/4/2009 3:53:59 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Yes i have been surprised at things in the last feww months i have been in hospital twice, first for a week all was fine, got to share a bit thought nothing of it, back for three weeks this time mostly the same nurses, they saw my Joyce Myer books or ask what dvd i was watching ect so it was good but some didn't say much yet we got on so well the first week, two weeks ago i had to go for a treatment the Doctor was talking about some things they fix and some fix themselfs i said that's God, he said no we don't talk like that some people get up set he never spoke again other than move your leg sit up ect or you can go now, i had never seen that before like fear, it's so sad, but i won't give up i put my feelers out , if all seems ok then i share as i'm led. i choose not to live in fear but i don't force anything.
God bless

8/4/2009 4:24:31 AM by mammak, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/3/2008

Lapanache,

You're right, it is such a shame. Our schools here are the same, bound by the government's curriculum. I don't have children, but I'm sure the day will come when schooling will become an issue for me as well.

I would have to be very, very careful when discussing faith with patients. I always have to abide by the social work code of ethics, and to do the work stated in my job description (which, unfortunately, doesn't cover praying for people!). My new job will be in a hospital, and discussions with patients often take place at their bedside on an open ward, in earshot of patients and staff.

I do wear a cross, but I will have to wait and see what the hospital's uniform policy says about necklaces. Some hospitals only allow stud earrings and a wedding band, and no other jewellery (like the one in the article you read), but some are a bit more lax. It's all to do with health and safety, minimising risk, and avoiding being sued! They would argue that a necklace could get caught on something and injure your neck, or that it might drop off and contaminate something.

If a patient identifies a spiritual/religious need, such as getting transport to church, I can arrange this for them as part of the care plan. Or if they identified their faith as a coping mechanism I could encourage them to continue doing that. But if they wanted my Christian opinion on something, or if they wanted a prayer, I would be taking a big risk by offering that. They (my employers) could argue that praying with/for one patient is discriminatory if I don't pray with/for them all.

I'm quite glad no one has asked me to pray for them, as I would find it really difficult to have to refuse. The safest option is, unfortunately, to refer on to the chaplain.

It's strange how our government see themselves as embracing diversity when really they are just oppressing. I try to remember this scripture when law and policy starts to get me down:

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

8/4/2009 4:43:15 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

mammak,

Do you live in the USA?...If so your's is the first story like it I've heard about, and that breaks my heart...

Our church choir goes to nursing homes and sings Christmas songs to the residents each year, and we are welcomed with open arms..they actually call us and remind us, if we forget. We always sing faith based songs like Silent Night, OH, come all you Faithful, but always throw in a Jingle Bells for good measure.

I know another woman who has a ministry in a nursing home each Sunday. She preaches/teaches and goes around to all the rooms and actually prays with and for some of the residents who aren't able to come to the services..She is a valued addition not only the residents, staff but is also highly regarded and welcomed by the owners/operaters of the facility.

She has had a few who refuse her prayers, but she just changes the subject and offers to do something practical for them like fluff a pillow or get them something to eat, or help them in some way...She says she just silently slips in a prayer for them while she is doing those other things..

Like Debora she is ministering to people in their last days of life and I admire her, and thank God for them and others like them.

By the way Joyce Meyers is my favorite teacher/preacher/author...I even got to go to one of her conferences!! Wow..was that cool!!

I think I have just about every book and CD she offers..I even made the mistake of buying one of them 2 x..LOL..so I gave it away..Actually I lend them all out..

The Lord has actually used me to lead 3 small groups based on her books...Battlefield of the Mind, How to hear from God, and How to know God intimatly..

Everybody here in the US knows and loves her..

Debora, do you know about Joyce Meyer?

8/4/2009 6:49:34 AM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Mammak, that's really sad. As a patient you shouldn't be made to feel as though you can't express your beliefs.

Lapanache, I saw a picture of Joyce Meyer on her website and realised I have seen her on one of the cable channels. I haven't read any of her material though- which of those three books would you recommend first? I always pay attention when someone recommends a book to me- God speaks to me a lot through literature.... :)

8/4/2009 11:29:40 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora,

If I had to choose only one Joyce Meyers book to read it would be the Battlefield of the Mind..

You can also get the accompanying workbook to go with it if you wish..We did use it in our small group. It's not necessary, but it helped to sink the teaching in a little deeper.

The book centers around 2 Corinthians 10:3-5.. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, (the Word of God)

She also has a childs version and a teen-age version of it available as well.

Basically, she teaches how to "Think about what you're thinking about"..and replace our old thoughts with God's Word; commandments, instructions, promises etc instead. Be a doer of the Word, not a hearer only..

Example; you might have a thought like " I can't do this", but you should replace that thought with Gods Word that says "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"

Using the Sword of the Spirit (God's Word) which is our only offensive spiritual weapon to attack the enemy with. It being alive and powerful and sharper than a 2-edged sword to cut asunder the soul and the spirit.

God promises that His Word does not come back to Him void, but accomplishes that which He sent it to do...Isaiah 55:11 So when we obey and stand on it (the Word), trusting in Him to keep His promises, He does. Not because He has too, but because He wants to.

You can go on line at www.joycemeyer.org and find out more...

While you're there, if you haven't already done so, you can actually go online and listen to her telecasts there...She's a wonderful preacher..very down to earth and teaches right where the rubber meets the road...

Let me know what you think...

8/4/2009 2:57:35 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

No i live in Australia...and Joyce is amazing my sister has everything of hers i have some and get my sisters off her that way i can buy John Bevers... she works in a nursing home and she isn't to put her believes forward even if the the person want's to share in case the families go of and they do, makes no sense another strange thing in hospital was a couple of PASTORS MINISTERS ECT WOULD COME IN AND ASK HOW OU ARE DOING AND WOULD OU LIKE PRAYER, THEY SAW MY BIBLE ECT AND WE WOULD HAVE A GREAT TIME OF IT, THEN ONE DAY I REALISED THEY WE ONLY CALLING ON ME IN THE ROOM I WAS IN, i asked about it, the all said most people only want a little chat maybe a prayer, but they enjoyed our sharing our love of Him, sad any way not being able to doesn't stop me or my sister, she shares all they want she has led some to the Lod lots really before they die, i put out my feelers and no matter what i pray anyway they just don't hear, He is a God that answers prayer i don't need to see or hear it happen just have faith that it will. in regards to my sister if a family member is aged and reaching the end who on eatrh would say don't talk to him/her in that way i don't like it, i wold want my MuM/dAD TO BE HAPPY NO MATTER WHAT .....SO SORRY I MUST KEEP HITTING CAPS LOCK. God bless you all and never gibe up or in i say

8/4/2009 3:23:10 PM by mammak, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/3/2008

mammak,

I love John Bevere too.. I have his book called "The Bait of Satan", but haven't finished it yet..His wife Lisa Bevere is good too, and often teaches during Joyce Meyers annual conferences.

Wow...Australia! You have Hillsong down there. That's an awesome ministry too. Isn't Darlene Zschech from there too? She is an awesome praise and worship leader..she also travels with Joyce...I got to worship with her at the conference I attended!!

It would seem that at least compared to UK and Australia we are able to share our faith much more freely in our medical facilities here in America.

Mammak, I am so in awe of your zeal to share our Jesus with others..What a blessing you are..I pray the Lord gives you many many opportunities to do so...your sister too. I know the Lord will continue to use you for His glory!!

You're right, even if they won't listen to you, you have sown a seed in their life, and we know God answers our prayers..

There are too many countries where we would be killed just because we were a Christian..that's where our modern-day martyrs are...They are literally dieing for their faith...and convicts me to take more advantage of my freedom here to share even more than I do already.

I have a clothing business, and it's not uncommon for us to pray openly for people right out on the sales floor, others even come and join in...We talk freely about the Lord and the things He is doing in our lives..

We have what we call a "prayer list" at the counter and when anyone needs prayer we just write the request down, and then pray over the requests several times a day...

Oh...that reminded me of a lady who came in a couple of years ago and told me she was mad at God...after talking to her for awhile I found out she was blaming God for a whole lot of stuff that the devil had done to her over her life...I didn't preach or force it, but over time as she came in and listened to us talking she did finally find peace with God...

Another lady who is a self described agnostic/atheist, she wasn't sure which...came into the store and heard us talking and started asking a whole lot of questions about our faith...She says she just doesn't understand how if our God was so good how He could let all the bad stuff happen in the world..I told her that was a really good question, I actually didn't know either. I think she expected us to get offended, we didn't. We did tell her that the bad stuff really wasn't caused by God, but because He gave humans freewill they are the ones that do the bad stuff, not Him...that seemed to get her thinking..maybe we planted a little seed?

We even have a witch from Scotland who comes to visit us every year. (She knows we are Christians). She often talks about the things she is involved with; book/movie deals etc...and when we get a chance, she talks alot..LOL we tell her about our Jesus..We just love on her and treat her with respect..AND PRAY FOR HER!!

We have Muslims who come in (they really are good people) and we always help them find beautiful clothing appropriate for their traditions.

Jehovah's Witnesses flock to the store and love to debate the bible with us. And of course it's all done with respect for each other and lots of hugs to go around.

My husband, who is the financial administrater, and not nearly as excited about Jesus as I am, to say the least, kept telling me we were going to run all the customers off with all the Jesus talk ..but when he sees the bottom line on the financials he has to keep quiet..:)smile. Even in our bad economy we are doing better than we did last year...Jesus is blessing the business in spite of the bad economy, and I believe it is because we are allowing ourselves to be used there to spread the Gospel and for His glory...

I'm sorry Debora, I seem to have gotten off your subject...

So...even though you may not be able to share your faith openly with others on your job, you can still pray for them..You can still show them Jesus, by your actions and re-actions to situations...Their bound to see something different about you..and want what (Who) you have....and you never know...Jesus might even open up some doors you didn't know about??

8/4/2009 8:20:23 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

we go to Hillsong, they have a conference for women called Colour it's's great, i live in Melbourne and we are going to see Bill Johnson next week then the week after there is another womens conference called Dare, John Bevere was there 2 years ago, may be i should move over there.

Debora..amen to what Lapanche said, He works from the inside out and we look at the natural, just be led by the Spirit He wll do the rest.

You have an amazing ministry there and your husband will come to see it, Lord i pray you supply all their needs, You keep the business growing and send the people that need to hear the right word at the right time, we plead the blood over the door posts and say to all the beliefs of the people that enter that are not of you, You may not enter, we pray for open hearts and for You will not mans in their lives. Man may say you can you can't but God has a way, He makes a way, be blessed in all you do.

8/5/2009 7:04:17 PM by mammak, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/3/2008

mammak,

Thank you for your prayer, that means so much to me...I know you are a mighty prayer warrior..I've seen your many many precious prayers offered here for those asking in the "Prayer" section..

There is nothing more powerful or more dangerous to the enemy than a Christian who knows how to come in Jesus Name, boldly and confidently to Gods throne of grace and mercy on behalf of others...The fervant effective prayer of the righteous avails much!!!

My doors at the store are open to all, regardless of their faith. Jesus never turns anyone away and neither will I. I actually pray that they will come so we can minister to or pray for them either silently or outloud, as He directs us to.

I anoint the place with oil and prayer all the time, and ask the Lord to command His angels charge over it to guard the place and protect us from any evil that might try to harm us in any way...I've never seen an angel, but I have sensed their presence and know they are there.

About a year or so ago, a lady come in, shopped awhile, but turned around at the door as she was about to leave and came back in and introduced herself to me. She was back in the states for awhile after being a full-time missionary in Africa and would be returning again soon. She said she felt compelled to let me know she sensed the Spirit of God powerfully there (in the store) and that it was a healing place and highly favored by God...That blew me away, I hadn't even talked to her while she was in the store shopping so she had no idea what goes on there..I believe it was the Lord using her in that way to encourage us to keep doing what we were doing...

Yes, mammak.. all our needs are always met. We are blessed only..so we can continue to be a blessing!!

To Him be all the glory, all the honor and all the praise!!

8/5/2009 8:56:42 PM by Lapanache, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/29/2009

Thank you it's not me though, i pray it's not, i didn't mean turn people away at the door, He said go out into all the world i meant for their hearts to opened, for all baggage wrong thinking ect to be off them while they are in there i think i better stop.
I could listen all day to your stories, i know of 2 stores here people from our church 1 a shoe repair the other a chocolate store, the lady that runs that is an African an intercessor, He has so much in place, so His name will be known, God bless.

8/5/2009 9:56:30 PM by mammak, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/3/2008

Deborah, that scripture In Romans made a lot of sense to me...
Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

So basically, we need to listen to our authorities and governments always. Unless, one day they take away our right to worship Jesus. Right?

8/6/2009 5:43:53 AM by Lizzy316, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/6/2009

Hi Lizzy

That's certainly my understanding of that scripture- we are to submit to and obey the authorities (unless it violates God's word and instruction). I think I would have something to say if my employers asked me not to wear a cross/crucifix though! :)

Do you ever feel stifled as a Christian in your life?

God bless you :)

8/6/2009 12:17:00 PM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Hi Debora

I don't really feel stifled as a Christian. Instead I feel oppression because I feel constantly convicted about a lot of things. Mainly dating someone who is Jewish is what is really convicting me at the moment. I know I shouldn't but can't break up with him. I'm just not strong enough. I pray to God for strength. The more sermons I listen to online the more I realize how bad humanity really is. We realllly need Jesus! Lately it has just all been depressing for me. Finding a nice Christian guy seems impossible too..

8/6/2009 1:31:55 PM by Lizzy316, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/6/2009

Last night, I went to my Bible to find a piece of scipture to meditate on. I went to psalms first, and one of the first verses I came across was this:

"Direct my steps by Your word, and let no iniquity have dominion over me. Redeem me from the oppression of man, that I may keep Your precepts. Make Your face shine upon Your servant, and teach me Your statutes. Rivers of water run down from my eyes, because men do not keep Your law" (Ps 119: 133-136)

I think it sums up our discussion very aptly. :)

8/7/2009 12:07:49 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

That's a great message :)

8/7/2009 6:43:44 AM by Lizzy316, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/6/2009

Debora,
Referring to your post of 8.6.09 I would like to say that the company I work for forbids the wearing of any jewelry of a religious nature. They also expect us to work on Easter, but the owners take off for Passover. I have worked for them for 4 years and have so far avoided working on Easter, but have been told that next year I must because I set a bad example as a member of management when I don't work a holiday.

It is hard to work in an environment that does not accept the outward displays of our faith, however, we are called to live in the world, but not to conform to the world. As much as I enjoy wearing a cross, not being able to wear it at work is a minor annoyance in the larger picture. In fact, because I have lost my wedding ring at work, I don't know that I would be comfortable risking my cross as well.

If my employers knew that my customers discuss matters of faith with me on a daily basis it would annoy them greatly and could cost me my job. I view the work place as a place of ministry and one of my pastors calls me the retail pastor. I guess my point is that God puts us where He wants us to bring His light. How we accomplish this task is up to us for the most part. He delights in watching us overcome adversity. When we are in God's will He will provide grace and strength.

Blessings upon you!

8/12/2009 5:39:21 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Hi kcgodlyman

Thanks for sharing your thoughts- I wish I had some of your confidence and boldness in my working life. I spent years working to job descriptions and policies. In fact, I actually enjoyed having a code of conduct and a set of rules to work under (I am a natural follower!). Now I have started living my life by His word, which is the ultimate instruction, but I find it hard to combine the two. I am very fearful of employers' discipline and this makes me very reluctant to take risks. I have managed to sneak in a few "God bless you"'s to patients, but even that had my heart pounding! I am still very young in Christ, and I hope that experience and increasing knowledge will help give me some of the confidence you have.

You said

we are called to live in the world, but not to conform to the world.

I wonder, where is the line? At what point do we refuse to conform? Is it when we are asked to remove a cross, or told we have to work on Easter, or told we can't discuss our faith at work?

I wonder as well how you interpret that scripture from Romans

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you for blessings. God bless you too!

D

8/13/2009 1:37:13 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora,
I like the way your mind works! These are great questions!

Romans 13:1 clearly tells us that God instituted governments and we are therefore to abide by the laws of the land. However, the laws of God supersede the laws of man. The same is true in business, our bosses have the right to impose rules and regulations, but we are obligated to follow Gods laws first. For example, I used to be a sales rep for a food company. The company ordered us to dispose of out of date items, but this would have denied my customers their rightful credits for spoiled goods. I refused to follow my company's directive in this matter.

God does not order us to wear a cross, nor does He prohibit us from working on Easter. He does however order us to go into all the world and spread the Good News. It is for this reason that I will talk to anyone who asks me about God. I will not start a conversation at work about my faith, but if another asks then I will respond. I feel that it is at these times that the Holy Spirit is actively opening a door and forming a bond.

If I were in health care I would follow the same guidelines. If you are merely responding to another person, how can you be wrong? It is only when you force your beliefs on another that your employer can fault you. Your patients are fortunate to be under your care. Keep up your questioning, it will lead to growth beyond imagining. God will surely honor the love in your heart and your heartfelt searching.

Blessings upon you!

8/14/2009 5:41:51 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

kcgodlyman,

If you like those questions, you should hear my (circa) 2 million others! :) Thank you for your encouragement- I will indeed keep questioning... I can't help it! (I have so many I've taken to listing them thematically, crossing them off as I find answers I'm happy with)

I will not start a conversation at work about my faith, but if another asks then I will respond.

That makes a lot of sense to me- I think Lapanache suggested that too. I think I could manage that, depending on the nature of the question and who was in earshot. However, if people were going to ask me about Jesus, they would need to know that I'm a Christian first, and because I can't bring that up I need some way of showing it- hence, the cross. :) Now, if I was asked to remove that cross (or any Christian symbol) from my person, I would effectively be unable to evangelise, as no one would know I was a Christian. I wonder, how do you let people at your work know you're a Christian, without starting a conversation about it? (customers in particular)

Here's a bit of an article I found on this topic :) The author basically advised to spread the word, and as long as you ask permission first, there shouldn't be any disciplinary consequences. It's a shame that it would be unacceptable in my profession. I liked the detailed (although slightly patronising!) instructions for exactly how to ask...

Share the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and you can give him the Salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ handout for him or her to keep to read and the Biblical Truths handout or whatever the Lord places on your heart). Let him or her know (just like the disciples let the blind man know), that Jesus has told you to call him to Him. You can do so just by saying Would it be okay if I give you some scripture? while you are handing it to him. Thats getting permission (finding out if he is calling for Jesus). Or you could say, I have some scripture for you? And hand it to him. Its a statement in a form of a question. Your pitch rises at the end of the sentence. If he doesnt want it he will say no thanks and then I believe you should not try further because he is not, at that time, someone who is looking for Jesus. Remember, youre at work; wishing to keep your job, and your enemy, the devil, is also there (by his workers: he is not omnipresent) wanting to get you fired.

Every blessing

Debora

8/15/2009 10:25:43 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora,
It is certainly easier when you are able to wear a cross or carry a bible for people to recognize you as a Christian, but there are other ways as well. Christ said that we will be known by our love for one another. I take this to mean that others will know us by the love we show. In my life I find people coming and asking me if I am a Christian. When I tell them I am they will say something like "I knew it" or "I thought so"; we advertise who we are by the way we live. People start to pick up on the love and caring that go along with Christianity, and they respond to the love. It is something that can't be faked nor can it be hidden; it shines through us into the darkness that surrounds the world.

I don't think there is anything wrong with telling someone you will pray for them, but if your supervisors are against this behavior then it needs to be done with care. Most people will not be offended and run off to tell on you, but we need to be aware of the possible consequences when we put ourselves out there. I believe that God honors our sincere efforts to serve and He will shield us to some extent, but I always pray that the Holy Spirit will provide a hedge of protection for my family and I each day to protect us from the enemy's attacks.

Blessings upon you!

8/15/2009 2:11:16 PM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009

Kcgodlyman,

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think a cross is the only defining feature of a Christian... I just meant it in terms of work boundaries and the short periods of time I spend with patients. But you're right- let the care and compassion speak for itself, in all areas of life. :)

Every blessing

Debora

8/17/2009 3:57:29 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora,
I really admire you for continuing to care so much about your patients. Sadly, in health care, practitioners are encouraged to separate themselves emotionally from their patients. Most people in health care that I know got into their career because of a desire to help people and a genuine love for humanity; as time goes on they gradually become jaded and detached. The pain of losing patients, the frustration of dealing with an enormous bureaucracy and the long hours all take a toll on them emotionally and they start to shut down. There are some that dig deep and reach out to Jesus for help, and they are the one's who still love their jobs and their patients.

It can be difficult to acknowledge our limitations, but thank God we have a savior who has no limitations and who wants to fill us up with all He has to give. The Holy Spirit is ever ready to fill us with love and grace and long suffering. Praise God for these resources!

Blessings upon you!

8/18/2009 11:16:09 AM by kcgodlyman, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/17/2009