Goodmorning everyone. My name is Kyle and i have been debating this topic since i became a follower of christ and would like to get some feed back on it. Any will help.

3/4/2009 9:45:40 AM by KyleLyn, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/4/2009

Hi Kyle, and welcome! It's great to have you here. A few months ago, I wrote an article about this. You can find it here. It has generated a TON of comments, more than any other article on the website. Some agreed, some did not. Anyway, it represents my view on the subject, so take a peek and let me know if you agree or not, and we can discuss it here.

3/4/2009 12:34:02 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thank you for that article. :) I have been reading so many of those latley and they all seem to come to the same point in a way. I believe you should just pray that the Holy Spirit will convict you in the rite direction for God's plan in your life. If tattoos are how God is going to use you to get to drug abusers and alchoholics and gang members and such, then go for it. Who are you to hinder anothers growth, but if your called to speak with the more proper men and women then i guess not. Make any sence? Again thank you fo the article and the warm welcome. :) God Bless.

3/4/2009 2:28:33 PM by KyleLyn, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/4/2009

Many Christians get tattooed in defiance of Leviticus 19:28 because they think they are no longer under the Law. BUT Jesus said Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5: 17,18 New International Version). The Law applies to Christians, too, OTHERWISE WE WOULDN'T NEED JESUS to have paid for our transgressions by being a ritual sacrifice, demanded by that very same Law. Of course, in today's world its well nigh impossible to keep the Law down to the smallest letter or the least stroke of a pen, but I happen to know its very easy NOT to get tattooed....

3/6/2009 3:52:16 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Okay...I am 35years of age with 5 tattooes......I really don't regret having them...maybe for the reason that I am not good at living with regrets. I learn from my so-called mistakes. I must admit that when i got them I didn't know what I know now. So NOW I have them...can't change that.......so this is how I look at it......What has been done has been done. Ask for forgiveness and be forgave and leave it alone. I often think of my great grandmother on subjects like this....she told me that you could be dead and gone and people will still be speaking of your sins years to come and God Himself had been thrown it in the sea. So I look at my tattoes as my youth...and humor. Like I have a black panther on my thigh...never seen one with wrinkles....lol...but soon I will see one.

3/11/2009 8:53:14 AM by mexbias08, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/25/2008

Mexbias08 I think you've got exactly the right attitude about this whole thing. I've said before that God doesn't do shame or regret. His thing is repentance. If we make a mistake, he wants us to acknowledge and understand the mistake, learn from it, seek forgiveness and move on. That's definitely not the same as regret - He does not want us thinking about it day after day.

3/13/2009 8:17:33 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I have read the artical and the responses how come no one mentioned that Jesus said he came not to condem the world but to give life and the artical mentions the law Jesus came and fulfilled the law in which the artical talks about. with that being said does the Bible not say it is imposible to be justified by that very law. so if we cannot justify ourselves through these laws do they apply. Jesus gave but 2 comandments love the Lord thy god and love ty neighbor as thy self. one more thing on my mind someone wrote a response to te artical that someone told them theywould not go to heaven if they got a tattoo when did Jesus make man the judge of everyone there is but one judge and he is that judge. This was writen 8/21/09

8/20/2009 9:27:09 PM by I know, Member of Delve into Jesus since 8/20/2009

Jesus died for the people whose names are in the Book of Life. Regarding everyone else, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20: 15 N.I.V.) Now let's take a hypothetical person and call him (her) XYZ: 1) Lets assume that XYZ's name is NOT in the Book of Life: In this case, XYZ will be tried, condemned and cast into the lake of fire, on the Day of Judgement. He (she) will be condemned for everything, including having a tattoo. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Revelation 20: 12 N.I.V.) And, to make things even more serious, let's not forget that Jesus also said But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. (Matthew 12: 36 N.I.V.). 2) But now lets assume that XYZs name IS in the Book of Life and that Jesus WAS crucified to save him (or her): In this case, XYZ has ALREADY been judged, condemned and punished for every single transgression, including wearing mixed fibres, committing adultery, robbing a bank, having a bad haircut and getting tattooed. XYZ has been judged and then put to death in the person of Jesus Christ, as He hung on the cross. So on the day of Judgement XYZ will not go on trial again, even if he (she) does have a tattoo. Its the DOUBLE JEOPARDY RULE. Now, if any "smart" person thinks it's OK to get a tattoo just because that person thinks he (or she) has been saved, let's not forget that Jesus also said Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5: 19 New International Version) So any tattoo on any Christian is far more expensive than he or she might imagine....

8/21/2009 1:46:12 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Hi Frank Mitchell & I Know, First, a verse: Leviticus 19:28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD. Just like a tattoo, this issue will not fade away on me. But, forget tattoos; I have no interest in being inky - not for the living and especially not for the dead. What I really want is the ability to know how to reach back into the Old Testament and whip out commands to fling around like Ninja throwing stars. Some people - certainly not me - have a knack for knowing which OT commands were fulfilled when the New Covenant was enacted and which ones still have deadly edges for us today. My grandmother told me that her first job back in the old country was lighting candles in Jewish homes on Friday evenings. I guess that job was predicated on the following command: Exodus 35:3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. Oi vai iz mir! I think I just broke the law like a hundred times tonight when I flipped on light switches and started my car. Anyone know where I can find someone to light my fire on the Sabbath? Frank, I noticed you mentioned the sin of a bad haircut, and I wondered if you were referring to Leviticus 19:27? Last Friday I cut my own hair - not with a Ninja throwing star - but with similar effects. Maybe my mistake started with coiffing my hair without that verse in mind (the one that comes right before the one forbidding tattoos): Leviticus 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. So Frank, how's your beard? Do you curl the edges of your beard with Orthodox flair or are you free stylin'? I really think I could sell certain young Christians on funky OT beard styles. You know the type of people I'm talking about; the ones who want to have an air of hip worldliness while staying just within the law. We could wean youth off the tatts by turning them on to beards with Shirley Temple curls, and perhaps thereby save a multitude of souls. And "I Know", Im usually inclined to thinking about most situations, like tattoos, in light of the commands Jesus gave to "love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbor as thy self" - just as you stated. But, I fear that when I contemplated your post I may have turned back toward the OT prohibition on tattoos, since I don't think God would be feeling the love if I altered the body He designed for me. Anyway, that just applies to me - which is very convenient for me since I don't like tattoos. I do know that many people get Christian themed tattoos to show they belong to Him. In defense of their decision, and in regard to Leviticus 19:28, I'll add that these people are not getting tattooed for the dead, but are attempting to honor the risen Christ. Meshugass, it's late, but I'm too confused for sleep! Perhaps I'll just practice some more with my Ninja stars and maybe I'll hit upon the right way to use Old Testament commands.

8/21/2009 9:15:42 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

This is good i have forward all this to some one i don't want to get a tattoo, i know they will regret it years from now, like their wedding day, i haven't said anything because i simply don't like them they know that, i pray it speaks. God bless

8/22/2009 12:28:06 AM by mammak, Member of Delve into Jesus since 9/3/2008

Ryan, your post made me think of a book called The Year of Living Biblically by A.J. Jacobs. He spends the first half of the year living by the OT laws, and the NT for the second half. It's worth a read if you haven't already. It's funny, but not in an offensive way, and it's touching to read about the journey he goes on, and how his faith grows stronger through doing it.

8/22/2009 8:57:25 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Ryan: You wrote Some people - certainly not me - have a knack for knowing which OT commands were fulfilled when the New Covenant was enacted and which ones still have deadly edges for us today. My answer is: But Jesus said until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5: 18) So, Ryan, what part of until heaven and earth disappear and of not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen dont you understand? Please clarify so I may help you. You wrote Frank, I noticed you mentioned the sin of a bad haircut, and I wondered if you were referring to Leviticus 19:27? Answer: Yes, I was. You wrote Last Friday I cut my own hair - not with a Ninja throwing star - but with similar effects. Maybe my mistake started with coiffing my hair without that verse in mind (the one that comes right before the one forbidding tattoos): Answer: Thanks for the information. You wrote So Frank, how's your beard? Do you curl the edges of your beard with Orthodox flair or are you free stylin'? Answer: Would the way I did my beard, if I had one, affect the Law in any way? I think this site was set up for people to discuss a point of Law, and not to discuss your hair or my non-existent beard. I think we should stick to the point. You wrote In defense of their decision, and in regard to Leviticus 19:28, I'll add that these people are not getting tattooed for the dead, but are attempting to honor the risen Christ. Answer: I think thats two separate commands. First Command: Do not cut your bodies for the dead and Second Command: or put tattoo marks on yourselves. The second item apparently has nothing to do with the dead.

8/22/2009 2:22:39 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Frank, Since I'm the one who started this website, I feel qualified to comment on what it's for. You're right that it exists for the purpose of discussing the Law and other Christian topics. However, that's just part of the story. Another equally important purpose is to allow people to come together, get to know each other, encourage one another and become friends in Christ. No one has done more to promote a sense of friendship and community on Delve Into Jesus than Ryan, and I applaud and thank him for doing it. So, while you you may wish to "stick to the point", please understand that there is also something deeper going on here than just debate, and it's something that is just as important to us here at Delve Into Jesus as the outcome of whatever debate is currently underway.

8/22/2009 3:11:21 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Debora - thanks for the recommendation; Ill try to read the book!

8/22/2009 5:29:41 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hi Frank, Thanks for getting back to me regarding my inquiries; I appreciate your effort. I'm sorry for being so silly and somewhat evasive with my questioning. I didn't mean to cause you to feel that I think you are foolish. I readily admit to being foolish - I should have a better understanding of these matters and to not be further along is imprudent on my part. I'll attempt to rephrase my questions more directly, because I am interested in your point of view on this topic. Three reasons why this type of discussion is important to me are: 1. I want to be obedient to God. 2. I need to learn how to explain my faith to non-believers. 3. I'm also in the process of deciding how to faithfully remain in a church where Im learning but, remain uncomfortable with what I see as several "unnecessary burdens" they lay on people. Paradoxically, the church I attend seems to be cool with tattoos, but they ruff up people with other issues. However, other Christian teachers that play a significant roll in my education do make a point of instructing that tattoos are forbidden. I don't personally want anything to do with tattoos - but, I must be able to address this type of hot topic in my culture and especially amongst the crowd I would hope to evangelize. I don't have a problem saying tattoos are a bad thing. However, I don't see how many people can look at Leviticus 19:28 and tell others they should not be tattooed, if they also seemingly ignore verse 27, which instructs us not to cut the corners of our beards. That is the logical question non-believers and most young Christians alike would first pose when they hear of Christians saying God forbids tattoos. Some could not progress any further when they sense hypocrisy. I want to accurately represent the Christian faith. If someone dismisses my portrayal as hypocritical or nonsensical I do not want the cause of their rejection to be my lack of ability to define the truth. Regarding Leviticus 19:27, if someone had a condition such as Alopecia and could not grow a beard, I would think they have always been exempt from the law concerning beards. So Frank, when you say tattoos are sin, but cutting the corners of your beard is not sin (for you with no beard, perchance due to cutting the whole thing off) - I am confused and frustrated by my confusion. Although, I hope you understand that I do no think you are sinning by not having a beard. Furthermore, there are tons of commands from the OT that I think are overlooked completely but, so many can brandish Leviticus 19:28 to forbid tattoos today. One such command I have not heard anyone insisting must be followed is Exodus 35:3. Others are concerning circumcision and unclean animals. Frank, if you personally avoid unclean animals, observe the Sabbath on Saturday plus all the annual Sabbaths and avoid igniting a fire on the Sabbath and teach tattoos are sin- I would respect your devotion to God and I'd admire your level of commitment. However, I could not tell people they should do the above and abstain from tattoos based on my current understanding. You mentioned: Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Some of us would conclude that the law was in effect until everything was accomplished - that everything was Jesus becoming our sin offering. From that point forward, animal sacrifices are no longer required - so the many scriptures instructing about sin offerings are no longer obligatory for us to follow. Leviticus 11 forbids the eating of unclean animals while Acts 11 has Peter saying all animals have been made clean. In the OT circumcision is required; in the NT circumcision is forbidden to be required. The Jerusalem Decree depicted in Acts 15 does not list a prohibition on tattoos as something required of new converts. Speaking on the many requirements of the law, which I believe to be defunct, Peter said: Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? I realize I may be wrong, but I see tattoos as being a part of the yoke Peter was inspired to speak against. I don't want to be wrong, so I ask you to explain your views. In your earlier posts you seem to be knowledgeable and confident of your beliefs so I hope you understand why I would challenge you to consider why I don't presently believe as you do. I'm rather stubborn in most matters in life but, I am pleasantly surprised by how other believers have been instrumental in helping me grow beyond positions I had previously clung to so obstinately. Frank, your commitment to obeying God is evident, so it would be a sin for me to ridicule His servant! I apologize for coming across as flippant and I welcome your insight in this matter!

8/22/2009 5:41:58 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I'm very pleased to read your post and to work with you on reaching (I hope) a joint conclusion: I myself must apologize if I came across as a strict observer of the Law. I'm not. My point isn't to say I'm obedient. So, when I gave XYZ as an example, I only considered him (her) as a transgressor. I gave no example in which XYZ keeps all the Law. There's no such person. The apostles were well aware of that in Acts 15, which you quote. In my own opinion, they had adopted a "don't ask; don't tell" attitude about the Law. But, without the Law, there can be no lawbreaking, i.e., no sin, so then what did Jesus die to save His people from??? He Himself said "yes, there is a Law and it will last until the end of time", which DOES explain His crucifixion. (It is interesting that Christianity is the ONLY religion in which God takes PERSONAL responsibility for His own people.) My point is to say what the Law IS and what it IS NOT so that at least we continue to know the difference between right and wrong. Paul wrote: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3: 20) If there were no law, there would be no sin. And if there were no sin, we wouldn't need Jesus. When we're conscious of our own sins we're comparable with the tax collector in Luke 18: 13 who said "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." And God loved him. You're concerned with not being hypocritical. I don't feel you'll have any problem with that. I have a bad haircut; I shave; I'm a sinner in many ways. I am not a minister, but if anyone asks me what's in the Law I look it up and I tell them to the best of my ability what it is, and I don't mind telling them that I've broken several laws but I'm not necessarily telling them which ones!!! But at least I'm aware of how bad I am and I think that's important. If ever I forget, then my wife and six children can remind me :-) You see, people aren't divided into sinners and non-sinners. They're divided into the living (whose names are in the Book of Life) and the dead. Jesus refers to the dead in Matthew 8: 22 ("let the dead bury their dead"). Paul writes in I Timothy 5: 6 "but the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives." So, what is a dead person? To be dead is to feel no love (my own opinion) so, to answer, one must know the opposite of love. It is indifference. The dead person feels no love for God or for others. The good Samaritan felt love for the Jew. The Pharisee who passed by on the other side of the road felt nothing. He was "dead" (again, my opinion). So I find it fascinating that, in Revelation, only the dead are cast into the lake of fire, i.e., GOD KILLS NO ONE!!! You wrote that "From that point forward, animal sacrifices are no longer required - so the many scriptures instructing about sin offerings are no longer obligatory for us to follow". Taking out the word "animal" from your comment, and inserting the word "Lamb", I can remind you that every time one takes communion one partakes of the sacrificial Lamb. Furthermore, all the blood was drained from that Lamb as He hung on the cross, as required by the Law! Yes, I would preach the Law. All of it. Not in the hope that anyone would manage to keep it all, but so that everyone would at least know what to thank Jesus for. They should all know how indebted the living are to Him. Those who preach "no law" are in danger of working to make Jesus seem unnecessary. Ouch! And here's another reason to preach the Law: One day you'll be preaching to a lot of people. They might almost all think they've been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ but the probability is that, in any typical assembly, only a few have been saved. But the typical preacher assumes that all his listeners have been saved. So he says to all of them "tattoos are OK!" So, on the strength of that preacher's words, several non-saved people go and get tattoos... So that preacher will have added one more transgression to the list of transgressions for which those people will be condemned on the Day of Judgement.... One cannot order anyone to love. (But one can talk about Love.) "Love God" and "love your neighbour" were given to us as commandments, but can anyone force himself (herself) to love his or her neighbour? Or God? Can you or I say "in five minutes I'm going to start loving Mr. Smith and Mrs. Jones like crazy" and then do it? The only one who can successfully order us to love is He who ordered the blind to see and the lame to walk and the dead to come alive. We're all in His hands.

8/22/2009 9:31:30 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Frank, Thanks for your reply; I'm glad you wrote so much about love! I agree with your comment about the law showing us how indebted we are to Jesus. I also agree with your point about preaching "no law" would be making Jesus' sacrifice unnecessary. However, I don't understand why you say you must preach the law and cannot preach love, especially in light of your wonderful observation about God taking personal responsibility for His people. I remain baffled as to how teachers or ministers can preach a tattoo is sin based on Leviticus 19:28 while not caring at about all verse 27. That still seems abusive to me. Actually Frank, you have come closer to answering that question than anyone of the four authorities to whom I have posed the question. That does mean a lot to me, so I thank you! Unfortunately, I guess the only answer that I would be satisfied with is something like, "In reference to Leviticus 19, I could not teach others that a tattoo is sin without saying the shaving of my own face is an equal sin. But Jesus, who is greater than the law, came to deliver us from sin and the law by teaching about the commandments of love!" LOVE is the ONLY reason why tattoos may be wrong. Back to the comment from "I Know" - we are commanded to love God and love our neighbor. I conclude that a tattoo is not loving God - for me. However, I respect anyone who desires to love God and holds a different opinion. I appreciate your attempt to help me understand why so many people throw the law at this issue or similar issues but, I still don't get it - which is obviously not your fault. Certainly everyone who uses Leviticus 19:28 to say tattoos are sin, desires to serve God and prevent people from sinning, which are commendable goals. However, as the law cannot save anyone, I think they are not using the greater tool they have available to achieve their desires. As much as I detest tattoos, I'm beginning to see my self with a big tattoo of something like John 3:16 as a witness to God's love being superior to the law and to confound the task masters of the law. Just joking - of course. But, I wonder what percentage of tattoos belonging to Christians are rooted in similar feelings. Pushing the law often results in rebellion. Unless the people understand they must glorify God in everything they do they are likely to make the wrong decision regarding tattoos. The law cannot make people love God - learning about Jesus does. I agree with your concluding remark - we're all in His hands!

8/23/2009 7:26:02 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Frank, An aside, way off the point: I enjoyed reading that you are a husband and a father! I can relate to that. Now, every post I read from you will be viewed in the light of: "Wow! Dude is raising s i x kids; he is surely blessed of God and must have tremendous wisdom!"

8/23/2009 7:30:13 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, Sorry, I edited my last post a couple of times yesterday and I think you read the pre-edit version. Now the latest version is up there. I didn't mean one "cannot preach love" in the sense you understood and I edited my comment to try to make that clear. Anyway, to "preach" is to "give moral, religious advice" (I just looked it up) and I certainly cannot advise anyone to love. It's beyond any normal person's power to accept or reject such advice. You either love or you don't. It depends on God through His Holy Spirit and not on any preaching... I'm sure Bonnie's father would have liked to preach to Bonnie NOT to love Clyde. I don't know if he did but, if he had, it would have been an exercise in futility. Also, I added a new paragraph to my last post. It's the second-to-last one, not counting the concluding sentence. It begins "And here's another reason to preach the Law". I'm writing this in case you read the unedited post and not the final one. In one of your posts you quoted Acts 15. It's a very interesting chapter and full of angles. What got the apostles upset was the statement that a man cannot be saved unless he gets circumcised, which is, of course, nonsense. They were right to get upset. In Acts 15 the apostles rightly concluded that salvation came to the Gentiles through the grace of our Lord Jesus and NOT through keeping the Law. BUT: It's impossible to preach salvation without at least acknowledging the Law. (And Jesus said "every letter" of it!) Because, without the Law there can be no lawbreaking; no sin and therefore no salvation from sin. So we need to acknowledge the Law. (This is my perception.) But, if we acknowledge all of the Law (which 99.9 percent of theologians seem reluctant to do), shouldn't we keep it? Answer: Yes, in principle. Question: But why, if the Law saves no one? Answer: For the sake of Love. (There's the hook!!!) Since Acts 15, Christians have been brought up to keep itty bitty pieces of the Law (only the 10 commandments, for example) and to believe that Jesus saved them from sinning againsy ONLY those itty bitty pieces. So they have unwittingly diminished Jesus, who saved us from ALL OF the Law! But John tied in Love and the Law: "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," (1 John 5: 3 NIV) CONCLUSION: 1) We know that Love is unconditional: If a man loves a woman because she's beautiful, then it's not Love, because one day she'll no longer be beautiful and so he won't love her any more. If a woman loves a man because he's rich, then it's not Love. It's self-interest. So the Love that Jesus taught us cannot be justified by human logic. That's what makes it divine. 2) God loves His children. So salvation is unconditional. 3) If a child loves God, then his obedience to God and his Law will be unconditional, and not in exchange for salvation or anything else. I believe that's where Paul and John were coming from in their writings.

8/24/2009 10:49:41 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Ryan, Thanks for your add-on. Actually, my wife and I have finished raising our kids. The two eldest, over in England, have already started raising their own...

8/24/2009 11:26:15 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Frank, I'm sorry to say to say I believe there is a rather good chance you may be lovingly known in Heaven as: Frank, the Tattooed Preacher I say that because if you live by the law and break one point of it you are guilty of breaking the whole law. Consequently, you are as good as tattooed to the gills, since you admit to shaving (most likely, on multiple occasions ... gasp!) your face. There must be a perfect reason why God, in Leviticus 19:27, commanded you not to cut your beard - and then added, in verse 28, no tattoos either. I think that perfect reason is God has a perfect sense of humor. That is in direct opposition to my idea of wit, which is often foolish and not very funny. Though, I have to hope that God and I have the same take on something. Out of all the commands in the OT, God puts shaving right before tattoos - that is funny! I think it's like He is saying, "Whoa and woe to you guys who put the Law before Love. If you want to convict someone for being inky, I'll condemn you for something you do daily." If I'm right, and you are lovingly known as Frank, the Tattooed Preacher, I shudder to think of the type of honorary names I must have been given! I assume God would much prefer that we forgo the tatts because we love Him rather than because we fear a law. Anyway, God is love and we're all in His loving hands!

8/24/2009 3:09:22 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Frank, A grandfather; what a fantastic gig! Surely, God grants seasoned wisdom, patience and extra tender love to His servants in the auspicious role of grandfather! That is definitely a status I'm looking forward to ... in the distant future. My oldest child just hit eight years. But, I'm already searching for something in the Law which prohibits her from dating until she's about 30 years-old. Got any ideas?

8/24/2009 3:12:19 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, Thanks for your posts. Just to clarify: in one of my posts I mentioned "en passant" that I'm not a minister. Now I must say I'm not a preacher. I followed a career in auditing and finance. No, I don't have any tattoos! Now for the issues: You wrote "I say that because if you live by the law and break one point of it you are guilty of breaking the whole law." That is true, but I have TWO answers: First: I must repeat, I DON'T live by the law. I hope that Jesus was crucified for me, too. BUT I do acknowledge that there IS a law; IT DOES EXIST and so at least I know that I'm breaking it. That is the point I've been trying to make all along. It's a matter of intellectual honesty. Paul wrote "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Romans 3: 20 NIV) Second: I shave. But the fact that I break laws A, B and C does not justify that I break all the others, too. It's much worse for himself and his victims if a bank robber says to himself "Oh, I robbed a bank so now it's OK if I rob all the others and then go on a killing spree!" My point, here, is "Let's restrain ourselves". My shaving does not justify a tattoo. It would simply add one more item to my Mosaic police record. You wrote "I think it's like He is saying, "Whoa and woe to you guys who put the Law before Love. If you want to convict someone for being inky, I'll condemn you for something you do daily." " I agree with you. Jesus actually taught that. And I'm not about to convict anyone. BUT, if someone asks "Is the Law still in force? Are tattoos against the Law?" I'll have to answer "Yes, Jesus said it's all in force" and "Yes, tattoos (as well as shaving) are against the Law", because I'M NOT GOING TO LIE ABOUT IT. And if I end up, some day, trying to keep as many laws as I can, it won't be an attempt to PURCHASE salvation. It will be because, as John wrote, "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," (1 John 5: 3 NIV) In Acts 15 James stated that the laws were burdensome, so the apostles decided not to preach the Law but to concentrate on telling the Gentiles about salvation, instead. That was a MANAGEMENT DECISION. It was NOT a change of doctrine... They didn't have the authority for that. Now, you are being honest and refusing to give advice in any future sermons regarding laws that you, yourself, do not keep. So now I must ask "What type of preacher will you be?" Type 1: Just a man talking to his congregation? Type 2: God talking to His congregation through your voice? Because God IS perfect and He can throw all 600 plus laws at any congregation He pleases. See this passage: God said to Jeremiah 'Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth."' (Jeremiah 1: 9 NIV) I live in Brazil, where I was born (but I'm also a British citizen) and this is a fantastically spiritual country. I've frequented regular churches with Type 1 preachers. They might as well have phoned their sermons in. But I've witnessed many, many sermons given by common men who were possessed by the Holy Spirit. Type 2 preachers. Awesome! (I don't mean "awesome" in the way that certain people refer to tattoos. I mean "awesome" in the way that God inspires awe.) Such a sermon CAN preach Love because it's God speaking, and not the man. And in common people's houses I've listened to prophecies and later watched them come true (many prophecies about myself; things the human speaker didn't know about but which God was telling me.) I've also seen terminally ill people who have then been cured by God. I've seen and heard other things which I'll not attempt to describe here because I don't want to be known as "Mad Mitch". But I've written them down. So, Ryan, if ever God decides to preach the Law through your voice, I suggest you don't attempt to censor Him. Re your daughter going on dates: I have four daughters (and two sons). My wife and I were about to have seven kids, but the youngest died and it was prophesied before it happened. So, for your daughter, my worldly wisdom says it will be far worse if she starts dating at 30. She will be defenceless. Pray for her to meet a good man. When I was planning to marry my wife, a Japanese "sensei" said to me: "Frank, if you're not prepared to die with her, then you're not fit to live with her." There you have the difference betwen "giving" and "giving up". A couple that only "gives" might well get divorced. But a couple in which the man and the woman "give up" everything for each other's sake (career, hobby, drinking, whatever) is a a marriage in which the bachelor dies to make way for the married person. No divorce! It includes being prepared to die physically, too, to defend your wife and kids (yes, I've been there, too, but all ended well). But this latter item used to be considered normal not so long ago, before second wave feminism. OK, you wanted advice about your daughter, but it also applies to the relationship between a man and his God. God incarnate gave up His life for His people. Every apostle except John gave up his life defending the Truth (and Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth and the life"). John gave up his freedom. So, really, it's asking nothing for a Christian to give up his perceived "right" to a tattoo. And maybe I should give up shaving. I started to shave when a former boss ordered me to, but now maybe my real Boss wants me to stop.

8/25/2009 6:51:23 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Bom Dia Frank! Thanks for all these lengthy replies! I'm understanding much more (even while not agreeing much); I appreciate your patience and sweat! I have known from a few days back that you are not a minister, but I was using the word preacher in the sense that you are teaching. However, you do remain the one who has engaged me most and taught me the most on the issue of the law! I did want to respond to some of the points you made, but I've only a minute to spare this morning. Still, I feel I must caution you to vigilantly consider whether you should really give up shaving in deference to the law. If we preach the law, shaving is of the same importance as circumcision. So be very careful because Paul had extremely harsh words for those who were blade happy; he wrote: Galatians 5:11-13 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Now Frank, I don't think we can afford to make a painful mistake on such delicate issues as circumcision and shaving, so maybe we should just preach the cross!

8/25/2009 8:26:07 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, boa tarde! You wrote that, if a preacher has a bad haircut, or shaves, then he may not say "tattoos are wrong". So, if he does keep the whole Law then may he say that tattoos are wrong? So then, does the Law change according to the preacher? I don't think so!!! I agree that if a sinful preacher (i.e. any preacher) were to exort people to keep the Law whilst pretending to keep all of the laws himself, then, yes, he would be a hypocrite, as many Pharisees were. But if the preacher presents himself as ONLY A MESSENGER who tells others SIMPLY WHAT JESUS SAID, then I really don't see a problem. Jesus said, in Matthew 5: 17,18 (NIV) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." And in Luke 9: 30,31 Jesus was seen to speak with Moses and Elijah. This is very, very significant because Moses represents the Law and Elijah represents the prophets. And, again, when we take communion we eat the Lamb out of which all the blood was drained as He hung on the cross. The Law requires that the blood of any sacrifice be totally drained. So, whether we agree with it or not, we all keep the Law at communion. Jesus made sure of that So my suggestion to you is, when you read Paul, read him IN THE LIGHT OF JESUS, and NOT INSTEAD OF JESUS. I have always appreciated the passage you quoted, Galatians 5: 11-13. I love it! But now, tell me, why was Paul so furious at those people? Let's take a look at the SAME chapter earlier on, Galatians 5:4 (NIV): "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." So now we know whom Paul was talking to! He was talking to those salvation merchants who imagined that salvation could be bought and sold by keeping the law! Now, in my comments, I'm NOT attempting to tie in the Law with salvation. I've simply been stating that the Law exists; that Jesus said it is still in force and that, even whilst we shave we should at least ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF THE LAW BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW THAT GIVES MEANING TO THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST. (Please forgive all the caps but I do get emphatic.) So, Ryan, you simply cannot properly preach the Cross without mentioning the Law. Why not? Because the Law explains the Cross. Paul and the other apostles were totally right to get upset at the circumcision group in the same way that Peter was upset at Simon the Sorcerer: " When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. Peter answered: May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God." (Acts 8: 18-21 NIV) You can't buy salvation with money; you can't buy it by keeping the Law. But Paul was not against the Law "per se". See Acts 16: 3 (NIV) "Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." Paul was simply against using the Law as coinage to purchase salvation. Obedience to the Law has nothing to do with salvation. Obedience to the Law has everything to do with love of the Father. Again, "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," (1 John 5: 3 NIV) If a person preaches that one NEED NOT KEEP THE LAW BECAUSE IT DOESN'T LEAD TO SALVATION, then that preacher is implying that one should keep the Law ONLY if there is some advantage to be gained from it. That preacher is as bad as the salvation merchants! Peter simply thought the Law was too burdensome. At least he was honest!

8/26/2009 10:21:45 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Boa tarde meu amigo Frank, In Acts 15:10, St. Peter describes the yoke of the law as too burdensome, but Jesus encourages us with the following promise: Matthew 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Yes Frank, if we love God, we will keep His commands. But which commands? Sadly, you may be in no position to help me know which commands to keep, because ... because ... just look at you Frank! You are hideously shorn and grotesquely tattooed! You have a plank of sin sticking out of your eye, and you're sporting Goth shackles around your wrists and ankles! How do I know what you look like? Well, if you break one point of the law you're guilty of the whole law! So, by admitting you shave you are also guilty of being tattooed, and I'm just assuming the Goth accessories complete the ensemble. You have referenced Mathew 5 twice now, so I'll also do it again to catch up to you: Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Jesus, by being our sin offering, FULFILLED all the laws pertaining to the numerous types of, and additional rituals surrounding, animal sacrifices. How do you like the SIZE of that letter that disappeared? Furthermore, what do you think of that MIGHTY pen stroke that made the Old Covenant obsolete? Check out: Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. No One does FULFILLING like Jesus! His fulfilling is legally and compassionately better than abolishing the Law (referring back to Matthew 5:17)! Oh, and to continue being the contrarian I am, I must retract my previous acknowledgement to your statement that you are not a minister by again quoting St. Paul: 2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Frank, you're alive! Now look at you Frank; you're beautiful! 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. In the light, you are not just a preacher, you are a Royal Priest, serving under Jesus, our High Priest - and preaching a Superior Covenant: Hebrews 8:6-7 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. Bravisimo for a superior covenant with better promises! I don't want any part of preaching a covenant that only brings death - especially when we are called to preach a covenant that brings life! Was the first one so bad that we could not live under it? See 2 Corinthians 3:6 again. How should we live under the New Covenant: Luke 10:27 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself. The glorious New Covenant provides authority for asserting that tattoos may be wrong. However, since we do not live under the Old Covenant, Leviticus 19:28 is not the answer. Tattoos - as well as shaving - or any other practice - is sin only if it does not demonstrate love for God - and -neighbor.

8/26/2009 1:14:17 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, boa noite! Just out of curiosity, where did you learn Portuguese? O.K., back to the tatami: You wrote: You are hideously shorn and grotesquely tattooed! You have a plank of sin sticking out of your eye, and youre sporting Goth shackles around your wrists and ankles! How do I know what you look like? Well, if you break one point of the law you're guilty of the whole law! So, by admitting you shave you are also guilty of being tattooed, and I'm just assuming the Goth accessories complete the ensemble I think you wrote the above on the assumption that I would want to disagree. But I do agree that Im all that! You think that Im condemning tattooed people. Im not. Because I believe that Jesus died for the murderer but not for homicide; He died for the whore but not for prostitution; He died for the homosexual but not for homosexuality; He died for the tattooed person but not for tattoos. I hope He died for me, too, but not for my razor... Those He saved have all been justified in Faith. But their homicide; prostitution; homosexuality and needles and razors have NOT been justified. The whore will make it to Heaven, but not her trade! See John 8:11 (NIV) "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."" You see? He told her to STOP whoring. So, regarding tattoos, is the tattooed person worthy? Yes! Are the tattoos worthy? No! Should a Christian kill? No! Should he (she) indulge in whoring or fornication or sodomy? No! Should he shave? No! Should he (she) get tattooed? No! However, if he (she) does all these things but is living has he (she) been saved? Yes, of course! You see, Im not preaching a covenant that brings death. Im preaching life for the Christian; death for the worldly things that we all do Those who preach that tattoos are OK are actually justifying the things that people do. They are the ones who point the way to death You wrote "Tattoos - as well as shaving - or any other practice - is sin only if it does not demonstrate love for God - and -neighbor." BUT St. John has told us that one does not demonstrate love for God by disobeying His laws. Re Matthew 5:17,18, Jesus has made it clear that fulfillment will only be complete when heaven and earth disappear, which I understand to be when the last sinner at the end of time has sinned and been saved.

8/26/2009 2:51:10 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Bonito Frank, Brilhante! With that insightful post, you've left me very little room for disagreement! So, once again I must stoop to mentioning your appearance. But, after a few passes at telling you how pathetic you look, I'm bored with that. If only I had the imagination to see you as God sees you. However, maybe it's you who needs to imagine how God sees you because you so readily pled guilty to the portrait I had painted of you. Let's see; you have accepted Jesus as your Savior so this verse must apply to you: John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. Just like any father, I'm sure God looks at each of His children, including you, and sees only precious faces. I suppose there's something else God sees when He looks at you. Check out these verses: 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous! I believe that when God looks at you, He sees the righteousness of Jesus! His shed blood paid the penalty for your sins. You can go before the Holy God because you have been made clean by the righteousness of Jesus and you are united to Him! A little more back-up that Jesus' atonement makes you counted as righteous - at-one with God: Romans 3:21-26 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Gone are your sins and so is your costume of enslavement to sin. Buh-bye dirty Frank! Hello Bonito Frank! No more disgusting hair and ugly tattoos; no more chains: Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritancenow that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. So, if you are looking that good to God and have been set free, why do you want to return to the law of bondage? We've mentioned Matthew 5:17-18 several times and you still think Jesus will fulfill the law at a later date, so I offer these verses: Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 13:8-10 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Now Bonito Frank, we are command to preach the Good News about Jesus. So, maybe you should leave behind the law and send your pretty feet to preach about freedom in Jesus! Romans 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

8/27/2009 3:32:12 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Bonito Frank, Since we can stray way off the topic - I have never had to learn much Portuguese to have many dear friends from Portugal and Brazil! I can usually get by with my Spanish spoken with Portuguese vowel sounds, and some idea of where the two languages take differing paths. I'm not sure if using Portuguese vowels with Spanish helps or hurts my ability to be understood because Portuguese ears seem to be very creative and forgiving when deciphering my attempts at speech. That is part of the reason why I love these friends - we probably do more laughing than talking. I have always thought I could contentedly retire in Lisboa or the Algarve. However, my wife who is a citizen of Spain and Mexico, insists we'll return to Barcelona. I've found that the Portuguese-speaking world seems to be much more capable of dealing with Spanish and the latter has little use for the Portuguese language outside of Brazilian novellas. Anyway, Portuguese is a beautiful language; one that I must learn some day. Where did you pick up an appreciation for the martial arts and/or Japanese? I would have thought you were more into something like Capoeira. Should I more respectfully refer to you as Bonito Frank-sama?

8/27/2009 3:57:32 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, hello again. When a Brazilian chats with a Spanish American person, they usually speak in portuñol, or portunhol, which is a combination of português and español, or espanhol. Re my appearance: Lets take a look at St. Peter. Peter lied three times when he denied Jesus, so by your reasoning he is also tattooed, clean shaven and cheats at cards (or whatever!) Because, by your reasoning St. Peter and I have as good as committed every crime in the Bible. I agree with that! BUT none of that changes the Law If it did, the Law would follow the man and the man would not have to follow the Law. Which is a non-starter. The law is and always must be constant. Otherwise its useless. Now, your own sense of honesty prevents you from preaching ANY law if youve broken any of them. Is that right? So, again, look at Peter: Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. (Acts 5: 1-10 NIV) So, Peter, who had lied three times when he denied Jesus, still had the authority to comdemn Ananis and Sapphira for lying!!! What was the difference between them? Here it is: Ananias and Sapphira belonged to the earth, so much so that they couldnt bear to part with it entirely. On the other hand, when Jesus said to Peter follow me! Peter, together with his brother Andrew, walked away from his fishing nets and his livelihood. Peter was living in the biblical sense. He belongs to God and not to the earth. Ananias and Sapphira belonged to the earth. You see, Jesus had said of His disciples, including Peter They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. (John 17: 16 NIV) Ananias and Sapphira were under the Law and died by it. Peter, WHILST LIVING IN THIS WORLD, was also under the Law and he, too, had to die by it. The difference is that Ananias and Sapphira didnt belong to Jesus, so they died on their own. Peter belongs to Jesus, so he died with Jesus as He hung upon the cross. So when Peter lied by denying Jesus he had already paid for his sins, in the person of Jesus Christ. But, yes, they were sins, otherwise Jesus wouldnt have had to pay for them. And Peter wouldnt have wept when he realized what he had done. That is the manner in which Christ set His people free from the Law, not by bringing the law to an end as so many want to believe, but by being punished on behalf of all His followers. It's the double jeopardy rule. Regarding the New Covenant versus the Old Covenant: There is a general perception that the Old Covenant ended on the date of the crucifixion and that the New one came into effect on the same day. If thats true, then I have two questions: First: If the Old Covenant ended with Jesus on the cross, how is it that Ananias and Sapphira were condemned under the Old Covenant AFTER the crucifixion? Second: If the New Covenant only went into effect with Jesus on the cross, how is it that Job was already under the New Covenant, so many years before Jesus was even born? Look at this: I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. (Job 19:25 NIV) Now tell me, since Job had already been saved by the future sacrifice of Jesus, and knew it, then why was he so anxious to keep the Law? Answer: he loved God. Time, for God, has no meaning and no man can draw a line for Him between the time of the old covenant and the time of the new.

8/28/2009 11:25:42 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

What the law on the law is stymies me. It is what it is; whatever it is. While I wonder just what it is, I also wonder who knows what it is. Those who believe the law is fully in effect, should be able to admit that Christians, as a whole, are not the best keepers of the law - at least as the law is laid out in the Old Testament. Our collective lack of interest in the observance of the weekly and annual Sabbaths (a huge chunk of the law) is one challenge to those Whole Law-ers. As I stated in my original post; I don't know how we can reach back into the law and pull out an edgy command to fling at someone, like a Ninja star, even as we ignore major portions of the same law - and - while we ignore superior love ammo, at our disposal in the New Covenant, to fight the sin. In the example of tattoos, I pointed out the two-facedness of a shaved face saying, "Thou shall not ink thyself!" Especially when there is plenty of New Covenant rationale to explain why tattoos may not be loving God. God would prefer we are motivated to love Him in every action we take regardless of whether or not the situation is spelled out in a written code. God wants us to act in love from the code of love He writes in our hearts. That loving relationship we can have with God is another major part of the law that HAS changed - even though some think no point of the law has or will change until the end of the age. The law speaks at length about how the people were to be far separated from the Holiest Place in the Temple by a very thick curtain. However, all the rules surrounding entry into the Holiest Place where nullified when the curtain was ripped in two, by God, at the moment of Jesus' death. Mark 15:37-38 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last. The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. This event symbolized that man could come directly to God; no more distant separation. Relationship, not law would rule. I'm questioning whether we should be preaching from the sad side of a curtain that separates us from God - when our teaching could come from the viewpoint of being in the presence of God.

8/28/2009 3:00:49 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, through whom did God give the law to His people? Answer: Through Moses. And what did Moses have, among other things? Answer: A police record. He had killed an Egyptian, for example, and also incurred God's displeasure at Meribah: "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them." (Numbers 20:12 NIV) But it was God, and not Moses, who gave us the Law, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles whom he grafted onto the tree of Israel ("If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root..." (Romans 11:17 NIV) So, if God identified Moses as being the best man for the job, to be His messenger, who am I to question that? Another question: How many prophets are there in the Bible? Fifty-five? Answer: One prophet, who is God, and fifty-five men and women who were His mouthpieces. Some of them didn't even want the job: Jonah and Jeremiah, for example. Another question: How many preachers are there today? Answer: Loads. Question: How many REAL preachers are there today? Answer: Just one, and He is God and He recruits whomever He pleases to be His messengers. And is the messenger ALLOWED to decide which pieces of God's message he will deliver to his congregation on God's behalf? Is he ALLOWED to cherry-pick his way through 613 commandments and laws and regulations? Answer: NO WAY!!! Now, does God EXPECT any man or woman to actually KEEP all the laws he tells them to? Answer: NO!!! Take a look at this: "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess." (Deuteronomy 30:15-18 NIV) And now see this: "'And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.'" (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NIV) It seems the Hebrews never had a chance! Why did God do that? Why did He order His people to be obedient whilst knowing they wouldn't make the grade? God's explanation: "This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' " (Zechariah 13:9 NIV) It seems that a third of the Hebrews, and now many Gentiles, have been getting refined by means of a process of crime-and-punishment. Or as silver is refined in the fire. So what I see is a huge education process which consists of enforced learning through everyone's PLANNED TRANSGRESSIONS... It seems that people learn more through their mistakes than by getting things right every time. But then will come a day "...when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted." (Isaiah 30:26 NIV) We're in a gigantic novel in which God the Author has planned the beginning, the middle and the end. We're like method actors in a state of virtual reality. And Moses got tired of it. He said to God "But now, please forgive their sin but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." (Exodus 32:32 NIV) You see, God wrote a book and put Moses in it. He put everyone else in it, too.

8/28/2009 5:38:26 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Bonito Frank, I find nothing in your last post with which to disagree. However, if you beat your pretty feet to preach the Good News (Romans 10:15), who inside or outside of the Church will listen if you're tattooed with the hypocrisy of cherry picking your law favorites? God is a good Author, not the author of hypocrisy. He is definitely refining us and writing His law into our hearts. But, to which of His messengers is He commissioning to teach the whole law and who among them are pushing all those 600+ commands? Or are you saying if God sends one messenger to preach against tattoos with Leviticus 19:28, it doesn't mean he also has a calling to teach no shaving with verse 27? I think this inconsistency would be very confusing to those standing in my personal mission field. But, it is God's decision to introduce and resolve the conflict while bringing those He chooses to faith. I guess God is not developing my character as one who is charged with teaching the law - yet.

8/28/2009 6:20:48 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, I suggest you stand in the pulpit not as a priest or pastor screaming hellfire at all those faces staring up at you from the pews. I suggest you approach the pulpit as a teacher of good literature simply to tell people about the Book that God wrote for us all. But I'm just a drama critic.

8/29/2009 7:53:30 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Shabbat Shalom Bonito Frank! IF I should ever find my self in a pulpit, I'm rather sure I'd follow your advice! I can only entertain a remote IF in fear of God's comedic sovereignty should I lead with my feelings of NEVER. So, IF I was in a pulpit, I guess I'd start the story telling from the beginning and explain to the people that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world for a great purpose that has each of them individually written into the plot. Then I would want to jump to the part on how He lived a sinless life and then was killed so that His blood atoned for our sins. Next, I would explain that Jesus kept the law in perfect righteousness - a law we could never possibly keep ourselves. Then I'd elaborate on how His righteousness is imputed to us and how we can bear fruit of righteousness, through Him, by following the commands of love. This installment of the narrative would conclude with us living eternally in the presence of God. Whether my sermon lasts minutes or hours, I hope the people would not yank me from the pulpit, because they would find each point of my story to be exalting the greatness of God!

8/29/2009 9:02:39 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, Yes, that's exactly it!!!

8/29/2009 9:23:24 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

hii, I think this is a very good question but ppl do believe different things. I dont think tattoos are very good for 1) God made you unique and beautiful in side and out theres no need to change your body for the world. If its for you only thats your decision maybe you wanna get a loved ones name tattooed on your body it seems ok. But other than that if the tattoo is meaningless you should not get it and think about later on in life you may regret it. Its really all up to you. But i wouldnt do it. Good luck and God bless:)

11/6/2009 2:04:53 PM by dmaimone1, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/6/2009

I'd get a tattoo. Just a simple kanji character of Faith or Trust. I'd compare it to wearing a cross around your neck, a WWJD bracelet around your wrist, or a fish sticker on your car. At a Christian camp I went to a long time ago, my counselor had a tattoo of a cool looking cross along with a few symbols that really meant something to him. He shared his testimony with us kids through explaining his life and devotion to God by his tattoo. It's been almost 15 years since that, but I still remember how cool I thought it was. I know I'm one of the young ones here but I'll be the first to tell you that we live in different times than when you oldies :P were growing up. I don't think anyone of my generation would consider a Christian getting a tattoo a stumbling block for their faith. Actually, I'd say it would have the opposite effect, breaking down the stereotypical pocket protector, dorky, anti-fun Christian that people automatically think of when they hear the word Christian. What really interests me is how you guys rationalize taking parts of the old Law without taking all of it...as Ryan pointed out. I didn't read any resolution to this question so I figure I'd ask it again. Answers in no more than 200 words please :D

11/24/2009 3:02:49 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Vanity is hilarious! I'm not saying we should laugh at sin. God hates sin, but you have to wonder if He purposefully designed some comedic irony to haunt sins like vanity. We all look completely ridiculous whenever we're puffed up with pride. Going around worshipping our own awesomeness produces a reality show of our outrageous foolishness for the entertainment of everyone else. That's funny! The Pharisees thought they were in deep with their devotion to the law, but really they were more deeply in love with their celebrity status in the extreme sport of law keeping. It's easy to see and laugh at their vanity. I'm convinced that most Christians are not good at, or particularly interested in, keeping the whole law. Anyone who is prone to insisting others must observe part of the law - such as the ban on tattoos - is mocked by a hundred other points of the law that they refuse to acknowledge. Is there a correlation between law-pushing Christians and the Pharisees whose pride prevented them from seeing the weightier intentions of God? Some, but not all, people who desire a Christian themed tattoo are pursuing a popular look that showcases their hipness while also mentioning God. Vanity does play a major roll in many tattoo decisions. Also, I can fall into the pit of pride while marveling on being among the precious few who have not been inked by human hands - I prefer God himself to write His law on my heart! Maybe this question of tattoos is all about the individual's relationship with God and wanting to follow Him where He leads. However, as a fashionista I say tattoos are so yesterday!

12/3/2009 9:30:01 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

good point ryan

12/3/2009 5:27:37 PM by dmaimone1, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/6/2009

To tattoo or to taboo tattoos - the testimony of tutoring two tuffies: I still believe God would rather His children not tattoo themselves. But, circumstances can get murky. Two days fresh out of prison, a guy named Sliced showed up at my door. He looked unbelievable clean. I thought serving hard time would show up in a hard face and shoulders. However, he said he met Jesus in jail and had a new life - that was evident in his new appearance. I wondered if, and hoped, that God had sent him my way to encourage, and maybe even reward me, for praying for Sliced while he was incarcerated. It certainly was a huge lift to see how his life had changed. I had first met Sliced before this recent jail stint, when he verbally shredded a youth pastor who was trying to help him. You have to admire an eloquent thug; all that raw potential and ability to put a pastor, and his cultural relevancy training, in their proper place. Now, Sliced had the opportunity to put his untapped skill into the purpose of Good. I gushed to Sliced's probation officer about how he was making a very positive re-entry into society. The probation officer remarked that Sliced always flew straight for six months before he'd inevitably be thrown into jail again. I'm not sure how a guy can be tagged with such an unshakably dire reputation before hitting the ripe age of twenty. Sliced's reappearance must have been a blessing, but it soon did not feel easy, or seem like a reward to me. I hated to consider that the probation officer could be right. Sliced never made it to church once before jumping, head first, into his old ways - but, at least he didn't get a tattoo. I guess Sliced spent all of his cash on other vices and never had anything left to pay for a tattoo. Besides, his most prized body modification is a fat, rippled scar at his waist, which almost rings his entire body - hence the name Sliced. The trophy scar looks like a botched, but over-zealous attempt at hari-kari. T-Gas is another guy I met at about the same time Sliced resurfaced. T-Gas had just gotten out of jail and was in the forlorn state of believing everyone would be safer if he could just go back to the cell he knew as home. I had a hard time disagreeing with this line of reasoning. T-Gas became my shadow for three days, before disappearing. For about a week, I really went to the mat in prayer for him and then forgot all about him for a couple months. The other day, a smiling young man knocked at my door. It took me a second to recognize this squeaky clean eighteen year-old was T-Gas. Along with his new ability to smile came grooming skills and a personality. He also told the story of recently accepting Jesus as his Savior! T-Gas was wearing a muscle shirt to showcase a fresh, shiny tattoo of Jesus. It really made a big statement - the tattoo starts at the top of his shoulder and runs down to his elbow. Given the brevity of his shirt, I cynically wondered if he was trying to show off his muscles or his faith. The Jesus in this tribute tattoo is a popular portrayal of Jesus in pain. However, it definitely is not my idea of what Jesus looked like when He walked the earth. But, speaking of muscles, compared to my biceps, T-Gas' are just small potatoes. Unfortunately, my un-inked arms don't look like anyone's idea of Jesus and can only be recognized as monuments to me. Little boy muscles make little boy decisions, but unless you become like a child you cannot enter the Kingdom. It's up to Jesus to know if T-Gas' decision to be tattooed was childlike in a foolish way or childlike in a humble outpouring of love and devotion. However, I doubt T-Gas' resurrected body will include the tattoo - but, that is not for me to decide. A flood of trials will flow into every new Christian's life, but I'm guessing that T-Gas will also experience hurricane-force winds with his flood, given the troubles he's already seen in his young life. At least he will be reminded of Whom he belongs to every time he looks at his arm. T-Gas is showing off his tattoo while out walking the streets, but he is walking the walk Jesus intended. Sliced didn't remember his Savior and just landed back in prison. Sliced didn't even make it through half of his usual six months of freedom. Would he have done better if he had made some grandstanding statement of faith, like a Jesus tattoo? Maybe; but probably not. Some people need to live under the law; Sliced had expressed suspicion of needing prison to structure his life to stay on the path of following Jesus. That prison has become his reality for now. The law, thuggery, tattoos and taboos against tattoos will roll along for but a season, but Jesus is Eternity. In this life, visual reminders are useful. However, regardless of where Jesus may be inked on your body, He must be written in your mind and heart.

7/15/2010 3:52:21 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Tattoos are against the Law that God gave us through Moses, confirmed by Jesus Christ. Period. So, if a tattooed person is saved by grace (not works) then it is IN SPITE OF the tattoo and NOT BECAUSE OF it... I don't believe the Holy Spirit NEEDS tattoos to do His work....

7/16/2010 4:02:19 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Olá Frank, meu bom amigo tatuado, Your note was a bright spot in my otherwise lawless morning! I imagined you singing, "Oh! Como eu amo a tua lei! Nela medito o dia inteiro." Psalm 119:97. I admire your commitment to obeying God! This day's lawlessness started when I broke the Sabbath by lighting a fire to make coffee. Next, I committed the sin of shaving. Then as punishment for sinfully watering my garden, some sort of unclean kamikaze bug flew down my throat. To cleanse my palate, I rebelliously harvested the most succulent figs. And that's just the G-rated stuff I can write about. At least I didn't get a tattoo today! Thank God for grace! I hope you are faring better this day: Shabbat Shalom!

7/17/2010 11:28:40 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

maybe we have lost sight of who is a christain we are soposed to put on christ by over comming the world through him by the lust of the flesh also here is a good question to keep in mind as jesus as our example would jesus get a tattoo , those that are in the flesh do mind the things of the flesh but those of the spirit mind the things of the spirit

7/19/2010 9:52:53 AM by stevennnn, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/19/2010

Excellent point Stevennnn! Jesus absolutely would not have gotten a tattoo! Since emulating Jesus is of paramount importance, I will try this line of reasoning on the young adults I know. Everyone should contemplate the actions and intentions of Jesus before making a decision such as tattooing. I'm often embarrassed by how much I think like a teen, but somehow I have to learn to navigate Christianity so I just trudge through these experiences. I hope they would not get a tattoo after thinking about what Jesus would do, but I know too well the counter-reasoning some young people would employ. I read your post before meeting friends for lunch. One of them shoved a piece of pizza, topped with very greasy sausage, in my face. I did what Jesus would have done and refused to touch the stuff. Jesus came to lead a sinless life, therefore He would not have gotten inky or eaten minced pig parts on top of a pizza - the law Jesus came to fulfill forbade these actions. Today, it is lawful for me to eat the sausage, but I won't do it because it's gross and not good for the body God made for me. I believe the same is true of tattoos. I think many teens would continue with the WWJD reasoning by calling into question some of my personal decisions with statements like: Would Jesus have chosen that mistake you call a haircut? Would Jesus wear a wedding ring? Would Jesus be wasting time on a computer when the surf is up? I hope I can engage these people in conversation that will point them in the right direction. I remain amazed at all the different ways the One Body can view all these topics.

7/19/2010 1:47:21 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I agree, Jesus would definitely not have gotten a tattoo. And the Holy Spirit definitely does not need tattoo's to do His work.... but that doesn't mean that He can't use them. :) When I first became a Christian and was desperately seeking a new church, I noticed that one of my fellow students had a tattoo of Jesus on his arm. I approached him and asked him if he went to a church, which he did. I truly believe God used him in a great way to direct me towards a great church where I have been wonderfully welcomed into the body of Christ. Although my friend considers his tattoo to be a mistake he made in his younger days, I'm really glad he made that "mistake".... if it wasn't for that tattoo I may never have been prompted to ask him about church. Jesus gave us freedom..... and guidance on how to use that freedom. "Everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissable but not everything is constructive" (1Corinthians 10:23). I believe there are situations and circumstances where getting a tattoo, be it Christian or not, is not beneficial or constructive. God's word tells us: "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." (1Cor 8:9) So, we should carefully consider the ways in which we exercise our freedom, and the potential effect it could have on others. Me personally, I have two tattoos. I very unwisely chose to have them done before I was even 18. To me, they represent my foolish youth and I really do regret having them done. But they can also serve as a reminder of far I've come with God, and how much wiser I am now. I'm sure God would prefer me to ponder that than to beat myself up over my past mistakes. :)

7/23/2010 8:51:38 AM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora, of course God, through His Spirit, can use tattoos to do His work. He can and probably does. But that doesn’t make tattoos “good”! God uses even mildew to achieve His own ends. See this: “The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, ‘When you enter the land of Canaan, which I am giving you as your possession, and I put a spreading mildew in a house in that land, the owner of the house must go and tell the priest, 'I have seen something that looks like mildew in my house.'’” (Leviticus 14: 33-35 NIV) But that doesn’t make mildew good! I’ve read of many cases where enthusiastic Christians get themselves tattooed with “Christian” symbols. But in fact many are using God’s name or the image of His son to break the law He gave us: That is to add insult to injury, like stabbing a man with his own knife! (I mean this comment as no reflection on your friend, who considers his tattoo to have been a mistake.) The Bible shows us that good intentions are not good enough. See this: “When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.” (2 Samuel 6: 6,7 NIV) You see, Uzzah wanted to save the ark from falling but the law allowed only a specially ordained priest to touch it, and Uzzah wasn’t qualified… His good intentions got him killed... Again: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'” (Matthew 7: 21-23 NIV) Actually, the Bible makes it clear to us that Jesus knows those who have love in their hearts. Tattoos on the skin won't do the job! Love is relevant to salvation. Tattoos are irrelevant to salvation. But they are signs of disobedience, mistakes, whatever… A tattooed person with love in his/her heart is saved by love, not by the tattoo... It seems that you and I are thinking alike in this matter. Re 1 Corinthians et al, I think it’s important to read Paul IN THE LIGHT OF JESUS and NOT INSTEAD OF JESUS. Many who read Paul seem to forget what Jesus said about the Law, i.e., not a letter of it will be changed until the end....

7/23/2010 3:24:59 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Frank, Thank you for your reply- it gave me a lot to think about. :) I'm sorry if I implied that I think tattoos are "good". The fact that God is good was the sentiment behind my comment. I note your point about intentions. However, my NIV has Leviticus 19:28 as "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD". It's the "for the dead" part that makes me wonder if actually intentions do actually mean something here. What do you think? Also, please could you tell me more about how to read Paul in the light of Jesus? If that's ok... :)

8/17/2010 1:58:08 PM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora, Good evening. You've nothing to be sorry about. Even if you had implied that you think tattoos are good, it's all part of an objective discussion. Re Leviticus 19:28, I understand that it contains TWO SEPARATE commands. It is not unusual for O.T. books to contain more than one command in the same verse. The fact is, every other reference to mourning practices in the O.T. mentions only "cutting" but NOT "tattoos". They are Deuteronomy 14:1, Jeremiah 16:6 and Jeremiah 48:37. If tattoos were for the dead, too, these three passages should have mentioned tattoos, but they didn't.... So "cutting" was for the dead, but we're not allowed to have tattoos or any reason at all.... Now here's something new which I think is worth mentioning: I've seen comments stating that tattoos are a matter of TASTE so it's O.K. to have them, regardless. But isn't nudity a matter of taste, too? But now look at this: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." (Genesis 3: 6,7) The point is, when the man and the woman ate the forbidden fruit,they became LIKE GOD "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3: 5). I think that to be ashamed of nudity (as the man and woman were) and to feel ashamed of tattoos both have a common origin. It's a matter of FEELING, which comes of being "like God", as the Bible states, and not just blind obedience to a command. But blind obedience can also be necessary if one doesn't have much feeling.... Christianity is not an intellectual discipline. It's a discipline of the heart.... I love the fact that it was through a woman that man became "like God"! Re Paul in the light of Jesus, see this: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5: 17-19) Also: “And wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal.” (Leviticus 7: 26) This last one is very interesting, because whenever we take communion, we eat of the Lamb out of which the blood was drained as he hung upon the cross. See this: “... one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.” (John 19: 34) Therefore, whether we agree with it or not, we have to keep that Law at communion. Jesus made sure of that! So, whenever Paul refers to people as having been freed of the burden of the Law, it can only mean that the followers of Jesus have been freed of the CONSEQUENCES of breaking the Law (including getting tattoos) because Jesus has already been punished on behalf of all His followers. Paul was not against the Law, per se, but he was against people thinking they could purchase salvation simply by keeping the Law; by getting circumcised, for example. That really got him angry!

8/17/2010 7:35:57 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Debora, I’m not totally satisfied with my reply to you regarding “Paul in the light of Jesus and not instead of Jesus”. So here are a few more points: Paul was very much against people attempting to purchase salvation solely by keeping the Law. He wrote “Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” (Galatians 5: 2-6) This can give the impression that he was against the Law. But he was, in fact, writing about those salvation merchants who imagined that salvation could be bought and sold solely by keeping the law. To a different audience Paul stated “However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,” (Acts 24: 14). This last statement of Paul’s ties in with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5: 17,18. Paul believed that the Law applies to Gentiles as well as to Jews. He wrote “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the WHOLE WORLD (my caps) held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3: 19-24) So Jesus redeemed His followers, all of whom had (or have) broken the Law. Broken what? BROKEN THE LAW! (smiley face)

8/18/2010 2:40:29 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

Thank you for taking the time to explain that. I do understand what you're saying, but at the same time I remain confused... Jesus tells us of the first and second greatest commandments, and then that "all the law and all the prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40) If the law of Leviticus and the OT is still valid and binding (the dietary restrictions, the tassles, everything), then why do we seemingly pick and choose which to obey? Why aren't we all constantly striving to keep the whole law, without leaving out the smallest letter or stroke of a pen? Shouldn't we be doing that? :: frazzled ::

8/19/2010 2:06:46 PM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Thank you for taking the time to explain that. I do understand what you're saying, but at the same time I remain confused... Jesus tells us of the first and second greatest commandments, and then that "all the law and all the prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40) If the law of Leviticus and the OT is still valid and binding (the dietary restrictions, the tassles, everything), then why do we seemingly pick and choose which to obey? Why aren't we all constantly striving to keep the whole law, without leaving out the smallest letter or stroke of a pen? Shouldn't we be doing that? :: frazzled ::

8/19/2010 2:06:55 PM by Debora, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2009

Debora, Yes, we should be observing the whole Law. But, to do that, we should all be perfect: See this Psalm: “But to the wicked, God says: ‘What right have you to recite my laws or take my covenant on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you. When you see a thief, you join with him; you throw in your lot with adulterers. You use your mouth for evil and harness your tongue to deceit. You speak continually against your brother and slander your own mother's son.” (Psalm 50: 16-20) Remember the words of Jesus when he said “He who is without guilt cast the first stone”? So I don’t think anyone is in a position to observe those parts of the Law where we should stone transgressors to death, for example. If we did, we would be going against the above Psalm.... When God gave us the Law he knew that nobody would be capable of keeping all of it: “For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.” (Deuteronomy 30: 16-18) Now look at THIS: “And the LORD said to Moses: ‘You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.” (Deuteronomy 31: 16-18) So, to redeem His people, who were apparently PREDESTINED TO BREAK THE LAW, Jesus was ready to come to the world since before the creation: “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” (1 Peter 1: 18-20) Peter himself thought it was too difficult to keep all of the Law: “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15: 10,11) But John thought it was O.K.: “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,” (1 John 5: 3) It’s no good obeying the law to purchase salvation. The law must be obeyed out of LOVE. It’s a matter of ATTITUDE. Jesus taught this. So did Paul. Obviously nobody is about to succeed in keeping all of the 613 laws and rules and regulations. But, yes, they are ALL in force. I think the majority of theologians “teach” people that only the ten commandments are in force today, but I don’t believe them for a minute! Because a) Jesus said "yes" they are all in force, and b) “Love God” and “Love thy neighbour” aren’t even included in the ten! They first appear in Deuteronomy (6: 5) and Leviticus (19: 18). So I think we should try to do our best, out of love, to keep as many laws as we are capable of keeping. Some are very difficult, but it’s very EASY not to get tattooed.... I don’t think it’s advisable for any follower of Jesus to wantonly break any law such as the one forbidding tattoos, if he or she can possibly avoid it, simply because Jesus died to redeem him or her. Because that would amount to frivolous treatment of His sacrifice. The following passage is illustrative of this: “David longed for water and said, ‘Oh, that someone would get me a drink of water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem!’ So the three mighty men broke through the Philistine lines, drew water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem and carried it back to David. But he refused to drink it; instead, he poured it out before the LORD. ‘Far be it from me, O LORD, to do this!’ he said. ‘Is it not the blood of men who went at the risk of their lives?’ And David would not drink it.” (2 Samuel 23: 15-17) Of course, we have no choice but to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, but I think it should be done with the seriousness of a David.

8/19/2010 5:30:46 PM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

I couldn't help thinking about tattoos and my tattooed friends when today I read: Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. That being true, (and I trust I phrase this in the lawfully correct analogous order) must it therefore also be true that there is no untattooed or tattooed, for all are one in Christ? I have a few Greek friends who'd claim their Greekness is bigger than anyone's tattoos. And speaking of tattooed friends, especially one with the likeness of Jesus, I thought of this verse: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Jesus' yoke is light but being inked with His image is heavy indeed. Cowardly cover is ours, when we don't have a tattoo of Jesus and do stupid things that don't look like we're being conformed to His likeness. However, if you do have a Jesus tattoo over half your arm, like my friend T-Gas does, and the stupid things you do cross over into criminality, you will definitely bring some scorn to the holy name of Jesus. Peddling perkies in a school zone is certainly not on the list of things Jesus would do. Nor would Jesus have assaulted the two arresting officers the way T-Gas did on this infamous day. To protect the confidentiality of the innocent, or the not so innocent in this case, I use the name T-Gas as my satirical parody of the guy's street name. I don't know what changed between the time T-Gas got the tattoo to honor Jesus and the day he was busted for these crimes. But, T-Gas may have a decade or more to think over what went wrong. I only know of one person who looked at T-Gas' Jesus tattoo, in light of these new crimes, and ridiculed his faith. However, there are bound to be others who will disrespect the Savior because of the actions of T-Gas. I also wonder if any of T-Gas' customers may have been wavering on their dope decision but, when they saw the Jesus on T-Gas' arm, they foggily concluded this was a sign that Jesus understood their pain and was offering them relief. My poor eyes have been surprised by both the number of really bad tattoos and the number of Christian-themed tattoos they've witnessed creeping out of the neck and sleeve openings of jailbird suits, during the short time I've been visiting inmates. And then, there is that truly unfortunate subset where the really bad tattoos and the Christian-themed tattoos intersect - they bring to mind thankfulness for not running into these dudes on the beach, clad in swimsuits. Ah but, there is neither jailbird suit nor swimsuit, Greek or Jew, tattooed or untattooed in Jesus. I'm still thinking that resurrected bodies won't have tattoos but, just in case a tattoo should make it into Heaven, I'm sure that Jesus has designed a white robe that covers all. And that, perhaps, is why there are no Greeks in Jesus; the last time I was in Greece, those guys were wearing their traditional white robes way too short. I'm praying for a nice, long, white robe for T-Gas.

9/28/2010 7:23:04 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

I just can't get away from tattoos; even at church. Like Hollywood has its Glitterati my church has its in-crowd whom I refer to as the Churcherati. The Churcherati is made up mostly of those in leadership positions plus their spouses, adult children and close friends. I'm fascinated by the Churcherati's fascination with tattoos. I don't think I'd care at all about their position on tattoos if they didn't seem so legalistic in other areas. They are a major contributor to my confusion on how we decide which OT commands we need to fling around like deadly throwing stars and which ones we can snobbly snub. Yesterday, as I dashed through a hallway, I saw a gaggle of Churcherati gathered ahead of me. One woman had her hand on her hip and her bare shoulder pointed directly at me. I didn't break my stride, or stare in the least, so I don't know how such disturbing thoughts flashed through my head so rapidly. I was shocked that my first thought upon seeing the shoulder was, "There's some tasty naked flesh!" However, with a couple of steps closer, my next thought was, "Whoa, she's got a Mr. Yuk tattoo on her shoulder!" I was truly horrified by that first, sinful thought because I had already thanked God for my wife earlier in the morning and I had sung along to praise songs all the way to church - and that's the kind of worshipful Sunday I wanted to have. But, I was kind of relieved and amused that I thought the Churcherati's tattoo looked like Mr. Yuk. Perhaps you aren't lucky enough to know Mr. Yuk; he is a scowling, green, cartoon face used to teach children not to touch poisonous products. When I was a kid, the New York Health Department had a big campaign to distribute Mr. Yuk stickers for parents to put on poisonous items to warn their kids not to touch the dangerous stuff. There were also PSA's with a little song - "Mr. Yuk is green; Mr. Yuk is mean ..." Although no longer as popular, Mr. Yuk is still used as a warning in some parts of the US. I remember being about 12 years old when a group of us put Mr. Yuk stickers on girls we thought had caustic personalities. I never imagined someone would get a Mr. Yuk tattoo! I suppose the Churcherati's tattoo really wasn't Mr. Yuk but, that's what I truly thought I saw in that split second as I passed her. The tattoo was definitely round and that yuck-green color used for many tattoos. Perhaps she bought a sleeveless dress just to show off the tattoo but, I bet she would never wear a dress of that same oddly unpleasant shade of green. Anyway, there has been much debate on the efficacy of the Mr. Yuk campaign. There are studies that say he has deterred kids and others that say he actually entices them. I couldn't help seeing a parallel with a sub-theme of the day's sermon, which was don't be a stumbling block for others. I'm still annoyed by the impure thought that crossed my mind when I saw the shoulder, but I know who to blame for that - and it is not the Churcherati. However, if you have a tattoo meant to draw attention to the flesh, regardless of what you think it may look like - in reality, it is just a big Mr.Yuk warning!

10/25/2010 5:37:07 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

???? (qaaqa) is the Hebrew word translated as "tattoo" is etymologically related to a Semitic word for "carve" and can also be translated as "incision" In context, the verse clearly refers to cutting oneself for the dead. Presumably this was a ritual practiced by nearby peoples, and the author of Leviticus did not want the Israelites to practice it.

4/26/2012 6:27:06 AM by AndyB, Member of Delve into Jesus since 4/26/2012

Thanks Andy, that's great insight. I had never heard that before and it makes a lot of sense.

4/28/2012 7:56:10 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Andy, I don't think your comment is correct. 1) If the word in Hebrew which you quote refers to "cutting yourself for the dead" then Leviticus 19: 28 would read as “‘Do not cut yourselves for the dead or cut yourselves for the dead.......” That doesn't mahe sense! 2) Traditionally, Jews with tattoos may not be buried in Jewish cemeteries. I'm sure that the Jewish authorities who decided this were well versed in the meaning of Hebrew words.

4/28/2012 10:36:22 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

"In the temple courts He found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So He made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves He said, ‘Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!’” (John 2: 14-16 NIV) But nowadays tattooists have turned His Church into an enormous TATTOO BAZAAR, selling such things as “Christian tattoos”, it being that there’s no such thing as a “Christian” tattoo!!!

4/28/2012 10:38:54 AM by Frank Mitchell, Member of Delve into Jesus since 3/6/2009

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