How can I pray for my son, whose marriage is rocky, when I see children from other Christian parents divorcing?

How can I pray for my Christian friend with cancer, when I see other Christians dying of cancer?

How can I continue to pray for deliverance from unwanted personal character traits when nothing ever changes?

Is God at all personal, or is there some huge cosmic map which he just sticks pins into?

I REALLY want to believe that God is interested in me and answers my prayers, but it all seems so random. I once wrote a song with lines something like " .. did you die for me or JUST the human race?", and " did you see MY face when you were on the cross?"

Please NO TRITE answers! Actually I know there are NO answers really. Those people that have God and prayer sussed are bad news!

The Christian life seems one of despair and hopelessness ... unless you happened to be cosmically pinned!!!

Dave

8/4/2008 8:38:11 AM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/9/2007

Dave C!

Becoming a spectacular Prayer Warrior is very likely to be your cosmic destiny! I would gladly buy a ticket for a lottery with that being the prize because I'm confident of the odds.

You seem to be aware of the command to pray for each other and for our own needs; you also indicate you have been praying for a long time regarding personal issues. So, regardless of what we get from prayer, I think we agree we are required to do it. I don't think you and I are the types who would respect our selves if our only focus was the "what's in it for me" of prayer; however, some true understanding of the whole thing would certainly be nice. Since we must do that thing that sometimes feels like it brings on disappointment, it's in our best - I want comfort, not despair - interests to learn as much as we can about the subject through reading various perspectives.

I agree that some of the "cosmically pinned" Christians can say some frustrating stuff about prayer. Sometimes they are expressing pure awe of God but, at other times I suspect they are just trying to work out their own - similar to your - confusion on the subject through bravado or self-convincing. I often get irritated with those who have what I call the "King on a string bring on the bling" (my own twisted lyrics) approach to prayer. However, with a little time spent considering their rationale I see some light. I feel more comfortable with the "your grace is enough" concept but, also see that all blessings are part of that grace - in God's time.

Basically, I think that the answers to our questions on prayer are likely to come through obedience to the command to pray (regardless of how long it takes to perceive God's intentions). If I deserve a Trite award for this comment, feel free to tell me and I'll pray about it.

8/4/2008 10:09:40 AM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Dave,

It always makes me so happy when you come back to visit and ask questions. It means the Holy Spirit is not letting go of you!

With respect to prayer, I don't think I can do a better job of explaining this dilemma than I have in this article on praying and God's will. The main point on the article is very close to what Ryan wrote. Prayer is about so much more than asking God to "do something". It's about spending time with Him, seeking His counsel and seeking His comfort.

In as much as we can ask Him to "do something", we have to acknowledge in prayer that while this "something" is very near and dear to our heart, we surrender to His will. If He has bigger, better things in mind than our "something", let His will be done. That does not mean that our "something" means nothing! It does not mean that it's a waste of time to pray. On the contrary, the greater we desire our "something", the more significant the sacrifice we make when we surrender it to God's will. How amazing a sacrifice, knowing that Jesus DID NOT want to die on the cross. He was terrified. He asked God to deliver Him so that he would not have to suffer. But then, in the greatest act of sacrifice the world has ever know, Jesus added, "but you will be done." That is what our prayer must be like. The article explains this in greater detail.

Why does He do some "things" and not other "things?" Because there is SO much more going on than just what we can see. God is putting together a puzzle with 6 billion pieces. Sometimes the piece you're asking for fits. Sometimes it doesn't. All we know is that God loves us and is working things out for HIS best (even if it is impossible to see that right now.) How can cancer be the best? Who knows what good can come out of that situation? Maybe that is what it will take for someone to give their life to Him. I don't know.

But onto bigger issues....

You've been a visitor to this site for many months, and you've been asking tough questions and not getting satisfactory answers all this time. I know you get frustrated that you can't wrap all of Christianity into one complete, fulfilling explanation. It's discouraging that there are questions which have no satisfactory answer.

For me, I had to come to the point where there were more answers that made sense than questions with no answers. I had to be satisfied that some questions have no suitable answer, and decided not to throw out the 95 that makes COMPLETE sense for the sake of the 5 that does not. That's where faith comes in.

But no on can have faith in God except by asking God to grant him that faith. No one can come to God on their own. So, for you Dave, I think you need to pray to God to give you faith and help you to overcome that last 5. Don't try to do it on your own anymore. Let God know that you lack faith to surrender to Him completely (He knows this already) and ask for Him to take you the rest of the way.

You don't have to have all the answers before you come to Him. You don't need to understand it all. That's too much responsibility for anyone to bear! "Give up" in the sense that you admit to God that you need Him to carry you across the finish line. He will not disappoint you, and you surely have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

God bless you, Dave. I want so badly for you to take this last step. You and I are very, very similar people (and so is Ryan) and I have such deep empathy for what you're going through. I will pray for you, and I know many others on this site will be doing the same.

8/4/2008 10:41:40 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Thanks for reading and replying both.

From your article ..
"When presented with the reality that our child has cancer and is suffering tremendous pain, we must cry out, "Please Father, this is too much to bear! Please ease this suffering." But then, as Jesus did, we must conclude, "Yet not as I will, but as you will." In this way ... " my words now ... we activate the biggest cop out of all time.

God can heal ... but he might not.
God can provide ... but he might not.
God can change us ... but he might not.

How can we trust in these conditions?

Oh yes, I DO know that if God were to answer every prayer with a "Yes" the world would im/explode!! ... but that doesn't help my puny brain.

Does God have favourites in terms of answered prayers I wonder? But that's another subject.

Dave

8/4/2008 11:35:44 AM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/9/2007

Dave,

This is what I'm talking about...

Based on your own understanding, you see it as a cop-out and cannot accept it. You simply will not be able to move past it on your own. You can ask the question 100 times in 100 different ways and you are still not going to like the "trite" answers people give you. That's because no matter how much you fight it, it's an issue of faith, not intellect and I suspect that you may feel that faith is somehow inferior to intellect. The opposite is true, I assure you!

I don't mean to discourage you from asking question, since so very many of these questions have real, legitimate answers (and we still need the 95 percent that makes sense). I'm just telling you that without God's help, you are never going to accept the answers as truth.

It's time to let go, Dave. Pray earnestly for God to take you past this and to give you the faith you need to move beyond it. As I said before, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Don't ignore what I'm saying, and don't assume I'm cop-ing out because I can't answer you question. This IS the answer to your question.

Speaking on behalf of Ryan, myself and the rest of Delve Ministries: We're not religious nuts, we're not a weak-minded sheep, we're not "simple" people looking for something to make life meaningful. I'm a regular guy, just like you. I've been where you are, and I'm telling you that you will not be able to move forward without getting down on your knees and asking God to help you. I will keep praying that you will do this.

8/4/2008 11:53:27 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I once read somewhere that:
"While Christ was on the cross,
He had you on His mind."
It was talking about this verse;
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:8


"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:1-21

8/4/2008 12:17:58 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

The awkward bit for me in this well known passage is what does "we" mean each time it is mentioned?

Is it "we" as individuals, or "we" as the collective world community?

Seems like it's open to either interpretation, and, if there appears to be no response to me personally, it looks like the collective "we" might be the one that is meant.

Sort of takes the edge off it doesn't it?

A charity may say "We have received this donation from Joe Bloggs" but that does not mean each person the charity helps gets a hand out.

Dave

PS I WILL pray the prayer arsindelve. Don't hold your breath!!

8/4/2008 12:40:40 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/9/2007

Hooray for Dave!

I'm glad you've decided to give it all over to God! I'll be praying with you.

Im confident you can replace each "we" with "Dave C" and you will have the text God intended.

In an earlier post you mentioned:
God can heal ... but he might not.
God can provide ... but he might not.
God can change us ... but he might not.

I believe God does heal, provide and change us in each in case - but, He answers these prayers in His time and His way - which is often very different from what we had in mind.

My family spends a lot of time in the ocean and watching movies like Finding Nemo. One of the main characters is famous for repeating "Just keep swimming" no matter what kind of tide she's facing. I use that line on my kids a lot but sometimes change it to "Just keep praying". Forgive me for trying to draw a spiritual point from a kid's flick but, Nemo is a young fishy who sinks into trouble when he disobeys his father's instructions, so I'm forever trying to pull out analogies to bait my children.

Since you closed your last post with "don't hold your breath", I'd like to add that if you don't immediately receive what you've been praying for, "Just keep praying" (How is that for trite? - I'm glad my kids are still too young to become annoyed or embarrassed by my triteness.)

Anyway, you also pondered whether God has favorites, and I couldn't help imagining a conversation between you and Jesus, like:

Jesus C: Dave, because I think you're rather spectacular, I have a huge prize waiting for you. And, please pray without ceasing.
Dave C: Jesus, I'd appreciate a little clarity down here, and some answered prayer would be nice too. I guess I'm not on your A list.

Dave C: I've struggled so much with prayer.
Jesus C: But, youve been wanting me despite the confusion you suffered.

Dave C: I've never really felt your love.
Jesus C: But, you shed my love abroad when you prayed for your cancer-stricken friend.

Dave C: I have more doubt and objections than I have faith.
Jesus C: But, you fought on, with all you had, and eventfully you turned the fight over to me.

Dave C: (no response because he has played all his excuse cards.)
Jesus C: Congratulations! You've won the biggest lottery!


Dave, I'm betting you are a winner!
(Sorry if the above was really bad - I've spent way too much time in the sun lately.)

8/4/2008 2:34:42 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan,

You're confidence is WELL misplaced, but thanks anyway.

You sound like an optimist ... I'm a pessimist. Glass always half empty. Sad, but that's me.

I've been around Christianity so long now (heavily committed / totally alienated) that I don't know what's what.

One thing I am not is a winner. Tail ender perhaps .. but I suppose that means I'm still in the race. I'll keep plonking one spiritual foot in front of another ... or fin, if you like ... and just hope. Trouble is it so often seems like a lost cause, and nobody wants to be last.

This response is perhaps too maudlin and personal ... but your post seemed to ask for it!

Dave

PS I'm not about to dive off a bridge, don't worry!

8/4/2008 3:38:07 PM by davec, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/9/2007

Dave C!

The glass being half empty - or is it half full, is one of my favorite debates! The truth is the glass is always 100 percent full! If we're talking water in the glass, the portion of the glass not occupied by water is filled with air - so the glass will always be full! (Unless you put your glass in a vacuum but, neither you nor the glass exist in a vacuum).

I blame this bit of triteness on you, since you asked for it but, the application to our discussion is that your spiritual glass is never half empty. Dave C may inhabit a portion of the glass - the part that cries out for help. However, God dwells in your glass, and completes the remainder of your glass. God is always there - whether we feel Him, see Him, hear Him, believe Him or what ever.

I was not at all worried you were headed for a bridge. You can't now; you have praying to do. Besides, I forgot to add in my last post that all the other A-listers are shouting "Yea! Party at Dave's house! He won the lottery too!"

8/4/2008 4:02:24 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Davec,
You said:
"The awkward bit for me in this well known passage is what does "we" mean each time it is mentioned?
Is it "we" as individuals, or "we" as the collective world community?
Seems like it's open to either interpretation, and, if there appears to be no response to me personally, it looks like the collective "we" might be the one that is meant.
Sort of takes the edge off it doesn't it?"
(End quote)
------------------------

The Bible is very clear.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:23

"But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:8

----------------------------------------------------
Commendeth, s???st?s?, proves, or renders conspicuous; see Romans 3:5.

"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)"
Romans 3:5

What renders the love of God so peculiarly conspicuous, is his sending his Son to die, not for the good, nor even for the righteous, but for sinners, for those who were deserving of wrath instead of love. The word sinners expresses the idea of moral turpitude, and consequent exposure to the divine displeasure. It was for, or in the place of those who were at once corrupt, and the enemies of God, that Christ died.

Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans
--------------------


(This is my life verse. The one that opened my eyes to understand why Jesus died on the cross...And what that had to do with 'me' personally.)
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23
(Ignited-Faith)

8/4/2008 4:07:50 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. The glass is half empty if you're enjoying the drink and half full if you don't like the drink, but have to drink it. Pessimistic people choose to entertain negative thoughts. Looks to me like it's a matter of changing your mind. Decide the glass is half full. I remember the words to a song I never liked, but it played on the radio at work A LOT:
'If you wanna be somebody else, change your mind.'
It was not a Christian song, but the words made so much sense to me.
As I've said many times before,Its all in the believing. Nothing is real to you or for you unless you believe it is. Did Jesus die just for me? Of course He did. Does He answer my every pray? He does. Will He do the same for you? Sure.

The Jesus we read about in the Bible was always sure of everything He did. He was never negative. He is still our example. He is exceptionally personal.

God is the epitome of fairness. He said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

8/4/2008 5:46:54 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hey Dave,

I wouldn't define myself as an optimist, although I can agree you tend to be pessimistic. I'm prone to nihilistic jags too - but, I'm happy to say they are becoming less foreboding, less frequent and less lengthy - which is something I thought would never change. I can totally relate to what you said about being committed to and alienated by Christianity. Except for Jesus having done it all for us on the cross, we'd all be complete losers. However, before dying Jesus said "It is finished." - and thereby finished everything for us. We have victory because of what He did - if we accept it. I am glad to read you want to "keep plonking one spiritual fin at a time". However, you don't have to worry about coming in last - Jesus already won for you.

Sorry to keep hounding you but, I've re-checked your numbers; you are definitely a winner!

8/4/2008 6:04:15 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

"keep plonking one spiritual fin at a time"

I like that. Sometimes I feel like I only have one fin though.

8/14/2008 11:43:08 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Hey Dave,
In one post you said:
"'When presented with the reality that our child has cancer and is suffering tremendous pain, we must cry out, "Please Father, this is too much to bear! Please ease this suffering." But then, as Jesus did, we must conclude, "Yet not as I will, but as you will." In this way ... ' my words now ... we activate the biggest cop out of all time.

God can heal ... but he might not.
God can provide ... but he might not.
God can change us ... but he might not.

How can we trust in these conditions?"

The answer is we can't and don't. We don't trust in conditions. We don't trust in a conditional God.
The Christian life is not about trusting in a God who will make your life better. The only promise about giving your life to God is that you will have eternal life. That is the only thing about a Christian's life that does not change. That is the Christian's "blessed hope".

There is no real hope in this life, only in the next. (However, "What we do in this life, echoes in eternity," but that's another discussion.) Putting trust in God is trusting that what He has for you in this life is GOOD-whatever that may be.
As for prayer, as stated before by others, what we ask in prayer should be according to what God wants. Prayer is part of the Christian life, and, being such, comes under the authority of whatever God wants is GOOD. Therefore "your will be done" is not a cop-out, it is the ultimate outcome we strive for.
"what good is it that a man gains the whole world good health, prosperity, the things WE want, but loses his own soul eternal life, the thing GOD desires." Matt. 16:26

Are events in this life random? It may seem so from our position, but we can't see God's plan, and therefore have to trust Him and in His character.
"ahh," you say, "but we can judge God's character by His actions. And what kind of person lets His friends suffer?"
Yes but what about all the other actions that God has done for his children chronicled in the Bible? Chiefly this, "but God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners some translations, His enemies, Christ died for us" -Rom. 5:8

Perhaps this does seem discouraging. I'm sorry I don't mean it to. I do believe that God wants us to prosper (don't read financially only) in this life, but that is not what Christianity is about, nor the reason Christ died.

Once again though, in all of this there is an element of faith. And I pray that God give you faith to be able to surrender that last 5 percent to Him.

I was/am alot like you. I know alot about God, but don't know Him very well. I used to hardly know Him, if at all. It came to a point one day in church, when pastor talked about the difference between knowing about God and knowing God. I went down to the front and prayed with some people, and the one thing they asked me was how much time was I spending in the Word and in prayer. I wasn't spending any. I went to a Christian college, and all my friends were Christians, but I didn't spend personal time with Him. They encouraged me to do it, and I decided that that was what I needed to do.

When I started regular studying of the Word, and regular prayer (prayer is slightly more essential, in my experience, than studying), my walk really started to improve. I just felt closer to God all the time, and actually started to change as a person (i'm not saying this will happen to you but it happened to me). I was the kind of person that didn't really care much about other people and what they were feeling, just about the task at hand, etc (not that that's bad, but I was extreme). When I started walking closer to God, He really hightened my awareness of those things, and I started to love Him and other people better. I got to know God! (a little better) There was a period where I wained on my time with God, and all the same stuff came right back in.

What I'm trying to say is that if you don't have regular time spent in God's word and in prayer, you need to. Man, it'll change your life. I'm convinced that relationship with God is spending time with Him, and that it is the fundamental foundation of a Christian life. Prayer in this context isn't a petition, its a conversation similar to what you would have with anyone who is close to you. What is going on in your life that you love, that you hate, that are afraid of, that you are proud of, things that you want, things that you are thankful of. All those things, its just talking as if with a loyal, trusted friend.

I share this with you cause I don't know where you are in your relationship with God. Maybe you do this already. Great! Don't take it as an insult to your intelligence. I used to think prayer was a rigid list of thankyou's and petitions. It was freeing and deepened my relationship with God when I changed the way I prayed. And I want you to have that same freedom and depth.

I hope that in all my ramblings, something was of use.
I really encourage you Dave, to seek God, not knowledge about Him, with all your heart. If you seek, you will find.

God bless you Dave!

10/6/2008 12:59:57 AM by TylerG, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/5/2008

oh the last post lost some of my parantheses in the verses. Its supposed to say this:

"what good is it that a man gains the whole world (good health, prosperity, the things WE want), but loses his own soul (eternal life, the thing GOD desires)." Matt. 16:26

and:
"but God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners (some translations, His enemies), Christ died for us" -Rom. 5:8
sorry 'bout that

10/6/2008 1:06:27 AM by TylerG, Member of Delve into Jesus since 10/5/2008