I was just curious why I should accept Jesus as my saviour any more than Krishna, Horus, Attis, Mithra, Dionysus, etc.? Many themes of the OT (i.e. Great flood) existed in ancient socities (Sumerians, Babylonian, etc.) while much of the NT themes (death and rebirth of man-god) existed throughout ancient Asia, Africa and Europe long before 0 AD.

6/23/2008 2:18:58 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Unlike all those others, Jesus claimed to be much more than wise, more than a prophet, more than a leader. He claimed to be the Son of God and proved it through the resurrection. How Can Christians Say Other Religions Are Wrong? Why Should I Believe Jesus Was the Son of God?

6/23/2008 2:29:26 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

6/23/2008 2:55:01 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Well many such religions and man-gods said they were Gods.. how can you prove they aren't any more than Jesus was? the only source u have is the self-contradictory Bible written by man and the fact that you were raised into it.

6/23/2008 3:02:49 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom, I started to believe in Jesus not because of the Bible, but because I found the evidence for His resurrection overwhelming, almost none of which comes from the Bible itself, but from sources which are accepted as valid by Christians and non-Christians alike. The Evidence For Christ

6/23/2008 3:07:44 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Tom, I was raised with "Religion." My family was Catholic, we had a Bible on the bookshelf, yet no one in my Family would read it. I thought I was saved because I did all the "things" a Catholic does. (Baby Baptism, Confession, Communion, Conformation, etc.) Yet in doing all these things, I later found out, I still did NOT know God. I was lost. Many years later God opened my eyes to receive the Gospel of Christ! Jesus went to the cross for me, to pay a debt I owed! "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst." 1 Timothy 1:15

6/23/2008 3:54:17 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Why not accept Jesus as your savior? What's the worst that could happen if you do? I don't know anything about the others you mentioned, but I know Jesus lives.

6/24/2008 10:14:25 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

What do you mean what is the worst that can happen to me? Why not accept Krishna as my saviour? O wait, then I will suffer eternally in Hell as Jesus said himself none enter Heaven except through him.. Exactly, people seem to have so much faith in their religion and yet know little of other religions and beliefs or myths that predated it and thus severly influenced it.. Here is some religions and myths that predated Christ: the Roman god Attis was the Good Shepard, given birth through his Great Mother who made such union without a mortal man (virgin Mary).. Attis died but triumphed over death and the event was celeberated in Rome during the end of March (Easter).. Attis was fastened to the trunk of a pine tree and was hanged there, later buried in a tomb where the High Priest of the time offered his blood as a human sacrafice.. The tomb was found empty many days later and yearly celeberations occured with baptism of blood to be reborn and to be free of sins. Tammuz/Adonis was another man-god who was worshipped as his death in Roman mythology was believed to have risen him to heaven where people prayed for his guidance.. The Egyptian gods Osiris and Isis also influenced early Rome and Jews as both were one but Osiris was murdered, where Isis gave birth to the Son Horus who reigned on Earth while Osiris was resurrected and ruled the nether world.. All three formed a trinity of Gods to rule mankind. The Egyptians celeberated the ressurection of Osiris and honoured the dead with lit lamps in late Fall just as Christians have the feast of all Souls of the dead in early November (also with lighting of lamps/candles)... Isis is quite similar to Mary for weeping for the death of Osiris and nursing the infant son, having many statues made of her holding the baby almost identical to those of the Mary and baby Jesus. Mithraism - originating in Persia -was the greatest rival to early Christianity, and as such the Church absorbed most of the mystery religions ideals as Mithra, the Sun God or the Sun/Son of Righteousness & Beacon of Light was born of a rock (St. Paul, born in Tarsus, Persia is quoted with many references 'they drank of that spiritiual rock, the rock was Christ').. Sunday being the sacred day of Mithra, being adressed as Lord and also having the birthday on December 25th (the Church changed it to the 25th to appeal to more potential pagan converts).. Baptism and a communion meal were essential rituals to Mithraism, the concept of rebirth being a fundemental idea along witht the struggle of good over evil.. So, with the legends of Christ clearly pre-existent before Jesus in Rome and around it.. why should I believe in Jesus any more than Mithra, Horus, Dionysus, Krishna or Apollo?

6/24/2008 10:56:50 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom, Very early on in this discussion I explained that the difference is that there is valid, reliable, extra-biblical evidence that Jesus is different - he rose from the dead. There are articles on this site to explain that, but you have not read them. So, I'm really not sure what the purpose of this discussion is for you. Do you really want to learn more, or have you already made up your mind and you're looking to make a point? If you really want to know the truth, why do you not avail yourself to the resources we've suggested, rather than just going around the same old points? If you find the evidence unpersuasive, then let's talk about that. If you read the articles and find them lacking, then I can suggest some further reading for you by reputable scholars, but at least investigate it for yourself.

6/24/2008 11:08:40 AM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

I have read them.. and I by all means there could have been a man named Jesus.. my point is that the concepts of a saviour man-god suffering and dying, rising for humanity (for different reasons) was already existant in many religions before 30AD.. and the many sacraments, rituals and feast days are clearly based on these pagan religions. I think it is you who must learn more about things (try reading material outside of pro-Christ websites for once?).. There is evidence in sacred texts of Krishna being a god and rising from the dead, before 30 AD.. Why not accept that any more than Jesus?

6/24/2008 11:16:59 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

I won't accept that because Krishna or any of the others have called me by name. Jesus called me by name. He talks to me. And until He calls you by name, you will remain blind. Unlike others on this site, I have no desire to debate whether or not Jesus is the Son of God. I sow the Word of God. "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God." (Romans 14:11) I will pray that God draws you and Jesus calls your name because I know that God does not want you to perish.

6/24/2008 3:43:59 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

A story is just a story without multiple witnesses. I would be genuinely interested to read a historical first-person account of someone seeing Osiris, Adonis, or Attis walking around in their human form, dying, and subsequently being resurrected. The difference between these mythological gods and Jesus is that there were thousands of people who actually saw Jesus walk the earth, die on the cross, and walk around three days later. Faith is great and all but you don't need to have blind faith to believe. As arsin noted, there are many reliable sources and historical proofs to corroborate the Bible. It is just a matter of choosing to believe them or choosing to believe that they are false. If you seek to know the truth with all of your heart, God will not disappoint.

6/24/2008 4:00:04 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Well do your research and you will read many accounts of many of these saviour gods.. of course many of them (Mithra) do not exist as well as Jesus today because of the Roman Empire taking Christ as their state religion (for political reasons) and banning these pagan beliefs from continuing to flourish, but much of their major concepts and sacraments were taken in by the Church in numerous forms & clearly exist today. and of course Jesus would call your name if you were raised (I assume) in the Western world.. but if you were raised in India, China or Russia I would be surprised were you not saying Buddha or Krishna called your name.

6/24/2008 4:07:41 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

It is nearly a consensus among scholars that Jesus was a man that did exist around 33 A.D. I tried not to use wikipedia too much as it is hard to determine how true that stuff is but I perused a few articles. I also looked up iskcon.com (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) for the hare krishna views and found religionfacts.com to be pretty objective. The hare krishna site was pretty interesting as there were a church of them down the road where I grew up and I always wondered why and what they were chanting. I realize now, after reading a few links, that they were chanting the hare krishna mantra. Buddhism is also a very intriguing religion but it was founded by a mortal man. Buddha never claimed to be God. Just enlightened. And as far as I have read, neither of them have claimed to be God or have claimed to have been resurrected (because resurrection is different from reincarnation). When Siddharta Gautama and Sri Krishna Caitanya died, they died. I will read more later because my lunch time is over. But I'll be back. :)

6/24/2008 5:33:08 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Throughout the Old Testament there are hundreds references made about the Messiah who would come, where He'd be born, to whom, and Jesus fulfilled those prophecies . . . hundreds, to many to be a coincidence when there are hundreds. We have records of the Romans, Herod, Pontius Pilate and the Son of God they crucified. I was lost at one time as well, not believing, half believing, doubting, unsure, searching. It wasn't just the research on my part, it was more than that, it's indescribable and hard to put in words how much of a spirit, and a heart change one has when we have faith, and our open to receiving His Spiriti, it is life changing. Absolutely life changing.

6/24/2008 6:15:22 PM by ncmom, Member of Delve into Jesus since 5/28/2008

Well there are many more religions that claimed to have their leader as a god with many sources outside of their text, and yes Buddha did not claim to be one.

6/24/2008 8:42:39 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Okay Tom, Luke 9:18 "One day as Jesus was alone, praying, he came over to his disciples and asked them, "Who do people say I am?" Direct question: Who do YOU say Jesus is?

6/25/2008 9:26:08 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Dear Friend, Your question is truly authentic. It demonstrates that your spirit is searching for absolute...truth. To answer your question, let me first say that Jesus Christ is...God. He is "alive", while all the other prophets are...dead. It all began with SIN (rebellion against God) in the Garden of Eden. Satan (God's adversary), disquised as a serpent, enticed Eve into believing she could have ...MORE! More than what a perfect and Holy God (Father/Provider) had already supplied Adam and Eve with to live abundantly. And above all, they could have a "personal" relationship with the Creator of the Universe, and "fellowship" with Him. BUT...because Adam and Eve disobeyed God's instructions...NOT to eat the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil, and did eat thereof, they were "exposed" to SIN. This is the same SIN that got Satan kicked out of Heaven in the first place. PRIDE! I want MORE! I Deserve, etc. I! I! I!...Me! Me! Me! equals SELF! Adam and Eve are our ancestors and we "inherited" SIN! Isn't it curious that no one needs to teach a child how to lie? And what is the first thing a little baby does when they are born? WHINE! Hahahaha They are totally dependent upon their mother for nourishment, and their father for secuirty. So, God gave Adam and Eve what they wanted. A free-will, to either accept Him or reject Him. To obey Him or obey Satan. Man wants to live "independent" ...away from God, while God, wants us to live independently..."dependent" upon Him for...EVERYTHING! Now, on to your answer. As you well know, the Israelites (God's chosen people) in order to commune with Him, had to perform a "blood" sacrifice. Why blood? Because blood is...LIFE! Without blood running through our veins, we'd all die. But this sacrifice always had to be repeated to cover the SIN of the people. God knew in His infiinite wisdom that He would have come ...Himself. He clothed Himself as a Man (Jesus Christ), came and paid the debt of SIN you and I could never fulfill, once and for ALL. Nothing we could do or say could satisfy God who is...HOLY! No one is good. Only God! Jesus paid the ultimate price out of LOVE! No human being could "ever" love you, or I, or humanity as much as God does. After Jesus died on the Cross, He ROSE from the dead. He defeated death to illustrate to us, that we too...(should we accept Him as LORD and Saviour of our life), can "defeat" death and live in Glory with Him in Heaven. There are two powers in the Universe. Satan and his demonic wrecking crew who hates humanity, and tries to deceive man in order to chain souls into Hell/Lake of Fire where the souls will be tormented and forced to worship...Satan (the god of HELL), in his kingdom . Or, we can live in righteousness with the King of kings and Lord of lords...Jesus Christ the perfect "Lamb of God" who is...WORTHY to be praised. It is...our choice! Jesus wants a "personal" intimate relationship with us. What an honor and privledge. Amen.

7/31/2008 11:16:28 AM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Well first off lostnasavd.. I will ask you why would God allow for Satan to enter into his Garden of Eden to corrupt his first two creations and to then bestow such a punishment on the rest of humanity? Yes God asked for blood sacrafices - of innocent animals - because He enjoyed the smell of it. Why would that earn you forgiveness? Satan does not rule anything and the lake of fire is not his kingdom. It says clearly in the Bible that he is a prisoner just as much as any other sinner. Why do you believe there are such atrocities in the Bible when God demands for countless numbers to die simply to prove his power. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html Why are there such contradictions in the Bible? Slavery is clear and accepted by God: Exodus 21:20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." God wished to kill Moses, one of his greatest prophets: Ex 4:24 "At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it. "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me," she said. So the LORD let him alone. Jacob literally wrestles around with God: Genisis 32:24/28 "So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." " Should I continue to list more?

7/31/2008 11:28:30 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Hey Tom, As a pro wrestler myself, I was recently body slammed by something I heard regarding the last scripture you cited involving Jacob wrestling with God. Since you seem to enjoy grappling with people too, at least with words, I'm hoping you may appreciate a different perspective on that scripture. We are aware that wrestling is a very physical sport, one may even say it is intimate (in a non-sexual way, of course). I can't begin to guess how many rounds my struggle with God has gone. However, in this analogy I heard, when we are wrestling with God it can mean He is close by and intimately involved in our game - ready to bestow a title or prize on the one who endures. So, if you are fighting to understand God, watch out dude - not for lightening bolts - but, maybe for some enlightenment. However, I think it may be up to you to set some fair rules for the fight.

7/31/2008 12:28:54 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Tom, You are still asking qestions of man, that should be put before God. Romans 9:14 states: 'What can we say? Was God being unfair? Of course not!! For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." ' Question: Are you a born-again Christian?

7/31/2008 12:30:03 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Hey Ryan, I understand your point and am truly looking for enlightenment, but God literally battles Jacob. Hey mrspiggy, but it could also say God will show eternal damnation to anyone he chooses, or that he will at least allow injustices to exist (slavery, genocide) and yet smite those that break some different rules (homosexuals).. I would like to completely accept everything of this faith and feel good that I can have eternal salvation, but I have to wonder why would God allow for such horrible things to exist in his holy words of the divine bible? Yeshua and the God of the NT seem to be very different.

7/31/2008 12:36:08 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

So true. But, the Word of God says, Let God be true and every man a liar. (Romans 3:4) Furthermore, Romans 14:11 states, " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess to God'. Since God is true, one day, you WILL confess to God that Jesus is Lord. You may inquire of others all you want, but, until you confess Jesus with your mouth and seek God with your whole heart, you will not understand where we are coming from. Faith is not intellectual, it's spiritual. It's in your heart of hearts that you believe. Yes, God has allowed slavery to exist, but He has also allowed a way of escape. Jesus. Jesus came to set the captives free. Homosexuality is wrong because it goes against God's command to go forth and multiply. Two people of the same sex cannot reproduce.

7/31/2008 1:08:28 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Tombomb Jesus believes in you....even if you dont believe in Him as yet, it doesnt appear. The Holy Bible states that man would rather believe a lie than to believe the Truth. Jesus Christ is Truth. The only Truth. God gives us a free will to worship Him or not. You believe what you want to, because that is the choice that you have made. Christians have also made the choice to believe in Christ...Son of the Living God. I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Truth....the same as Pauls spiritual eyes were opened on the road to Damascus. As Christians we are called to share the Truth of Jesus Christ. He is a kind God a loving God, but also a God of judgement. There is no fear in serving Christ. It doesnt appear that you are searching for Christ....but that you are trying to change our minds, to be open to other beliefs? For us...there is only 1 belief....and that is that Jesus is the Son of God. I pray that you do find Christ....and that you will come to know his Love for YOU.

11/30/2008 8:33:01 PM by cjmlas, Member of Delve into Jesus since 11/30/2008

Dear Friend, Christianity is not a man made religion that changes like the wind. It is a real personal relationship with the "living" Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus wants a personal relationship with...you. But we cannot come to a holy God on our terms. We must come to Him on His terms. It is first by "faith" that we agree with God that we are a sinner and need a Savior, Jesus Christ. He then gives us the Holy Spirit (His Power) to understand the mysteries of the spiritual realm in His Word. In the natural, the Bible doesn't make sense. But to those who become children of the "living" God, He gives them His Power (the Holy Spirit) to teach us spiritual...truth. And if you don't mind, may I ask you a few questions? 1. Do you have any spiritual belief? 2. Who do you say Jesus is? 3. Do you believe there is a heaven and a hell? 4. If you died right now, where would you go? 5. If what you believe were not true, wouldn't you want to know it?

11/30/2008 10:42:42 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Lostnsavd.. First tell me why your God would make such awful sinner human beings when He should know full well how evil we would become.. ? 1. I have spiritual beliefs. 2. Jesus is a popular man-god theology and it is astounding how different certain religious groups can change His image to fit their beliefs.. 3. I don't think an all benevolent God would send millions of soul to eternal torture & damnation.. 4. I don't need to worry about where my soul is going because it is all speculation and a true Christian would not worry about their own well being & self interest.. 5. Of course I would like to know truth. Why do you think you know it? If anything, none of us really know it and it is simply those who are the most compassionate who are least the most virtuous..

11/30/2008 11:42:31 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Dear Friend, 1. God did not "make" humans to sin. Humans sinned against God. God created man for Himself. To have a personal relationship with us. To fellowship with us. God is a "holy" just and righteous God. He cannot have sin around Him. Man rebelled against God. Man destroyed a perfect intimate relationship with God. 2. Jesus is God. He is the second Person in the Trinity. God, the Father (Jehovah); God, the Son (Jesus); and God, the Holy Spirit (Power). 3. My friend, God does not send anyone to Hell. God gave man free will. A choice to either agree with Him that they are a sinner and need a Savior, Jesus Christ and live for Him and reign with Him in glory. Being reunited "back" into right fellowship with Him and experience a real intimate relationship with our Creator and spend eternity in glorious heaven, or... Hell?the lake of fire. There are two forces in this world. Two powers. God and Satan. Satan tricked man in the Garden of Eden and twisted God's Word and Adam and Eve sinned, rebelled against God. They were not content with being provided for, they wanted more. Since that time, ALL of humanity is born in sin. What is sin? It is like a disease. We didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but we inherited a ...disease that keeps us from having a personal relationship with God. Man makes his own ultimate decision. To either follow God, or follow Satan. No one can serve two masters. Satan hates mankind because we are created in God's image. He wants to be worshipped too. And therefore, he has come to "steal, kill, and destroy." And he will trick man into believing lies in order to trap them and drag their soul to hell. Where their soul will be forced to worship him. 4. Let's say, just for instance, you are right. No God, no eternity (heaven or hell). None of us have anything to lose. Right? No need to even discuss the spritual realm. But, let's say, God is right (not me). Humanity has a lot to lose. Your precious soul. Personally, I don't like the game Russian Roulette and I have no intention of playing such a risky spiritual game for...my soul. 5. You asked me, "Why do you think you know it?" Because my friend, I do have that real, spiritual personal relationship with the Creator of the universe, Jesus Christ. He wants us to come to Him like little children. That dear innocent...faith. Ask Him my friend, to reveal Himself to you with a sincere and humble heart. He knows our heart and our motives. He knows how corrupt our hearts are because of rebellion. Man wants to live independently away from God, while He wants us to be independently ...dependent on Him for everything. My friend, when I asked Jesus into my life, to be my best friend, to be Lord of my life...I had no idea the incredible and exciting journey He would take me on. He is real and He loves you 'more' than life itself. What have you got to lose?

12/1/2008 12:14:08 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

1. Well why did God make such horrible children, that would slaughter each other, have ideologies of racism, rape, abortion, euthanasia, slavery, opression through religion in God's name, and do other such horrible things even after Yahweh drowned the world of sinners in Genesis.. If I was God I would make smart intelligent creatures that would know justice, morals and would know God and how to follow Him. I would not leave us to feud with eachother in wars and violence as one tries to tell the other they are incorrect, etc... And you believe it impossible to gain a relationship with God unless you accept Jesus, as in all Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc. would all go to the eternal lake of torment? 2. How do you know Jesus isn't simply a Prophet instead of a man god who dies to not even save all of humanity? Why don't you believe in Mithra, Vishnu or Horus? 3. Why would God make billions of soul when He KNEW they would fall to sin and that He would send them to eternal torture & punishment? Doesn't that sound a bit horrible? Why wouldn't God eventually just accept us all since obviously every person wants eternal bliss in Heaven.. Satan is not praised in the lake of fire, He is confined there. No one worships Lucifer in Hell.. Why does God need to be praised so much, and be so willing to damn people for not realizing how spectacular He is?> 4. So you are saying you are just going with the odds by accepting God, and since Christianity is the biggest its the best chance of winning salvation? 5. Well first of all you just explain to me how much you need God.. I can tell you many reasons why you could easily disregard religion altogether..

12/1/2008 1:22:38 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Dear Friend, 1. Christianity is not some man made religion that changes like the wind. It is a real personal relationship with the "living" God...Jesus Christ. 2. Mankind is born in sin (because of Adam and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden). This sin doesn't mean we did something wrong. It means we are ALL born with a disease called sin, and God...being a Holy, Just and Righteous God cannot commune with sinful creatures. Therefore, He clothed HIMSELF in flesh man (JESUS) to become the perfect blood sacrfice for humanity. He died in your place and my place in all of humanities place to reconcile us BACK to the Father, should we receive Him as Lord. God is infinite. We are finite. There are many things that man is to believe by "faith." That means...we believe in the wind, but we cannot see it. So why is it so hard to believe in God whom we cannot see...yet? When you come into a relationship with Jesus... He does speak to you. Like I said, what have you got to lose? It just seems to me, that you only want to debate. Let me give you a few words of wisdom. If you want to "know" absolute truth...ASK the One who created you. Go to God and SEEK HIM! Words alone my friend will never ...convince you.

12/1/2008 3:14:28 PM by lostnsavd, Member of Delve into Jesus since 7/30/2008

Tom - I'm glad you're back. You do a lot to strengthen my faith. I wish we could do the same for you. We only seem to say things that make sense to us and thereby leave your postulations unanswered. A few times, you have mentioned the viability of Vishnu, Mithra or Horus and have identified examples of how you think God is unfair and cruel. Both of these ideas made me think a bit - and resulted in the faith strengthening thing. I took a quick look at those gods; I'm going to stay with Jesus. Vishnu and Mithra stand for some fine qualities, but they didn't inspire me or offer to help me - in fact, they are completely indifferent to me. Since I know people who revere these deities, I don't want to say more. However, Horus (I don't think he is still trendy) was definitely ungodly by just about everyone's definition. Christians would argue that Jesus actually pre-dates these other three. He is the only One offering a relationship to me and inspiring me with words on how to live a happy life and how to care for others. We cherish His words regarding giving His life to redeem us and not wishing anyone to perish. No cruelty there - just love and compassion. I can completely relate with how you question whether God is fair and balk at the brutality you see. However, I now think that I formerly held these opinions because humans (perhaps the Church) did a poor job of explaining God and His plan - and I had not investigated it enough for myself. Any chance you too got some bogus information that has not been thoroughly checked out? You've railed against blind faith before - and I agree with you there. You seem to have some knowledge of the Bible and you've also mentioned you would like some enlightenment. I bet you don't come to this site just to argue with Christians; you are hoping to discover something good in Christianity, right? Are you open to asking God for understanding?

12/3/2008 6:39:36 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Ryan, do you think you would still enjoy Christianity so much if it hadn't been enforced into the Holy Roman Empire and thus made to last while other smaller faiths (which this one was at first) were eventually snuffed out.. How many texts survive of Horus or Mithra or any of the other man-gods who came before 30 A.D.? OK, you can only simply speculate when Jesus came and just once again hold onto your faith that the Gospels were actually written by people who knew what they were doing versus just some Jews many generations after Jesus. If you read the Gospels you would see that Christ speaks more of how horrible Hell will be then of Heaven.. I don't know why everyone makes this image of Jesus being care-free.. Yes of course I am looking for answers and would happy to find some new ones with some validity to them.. Why should I accept Christianity and not Islam or why shouldn't I just associate myself with peaceful histories like Buddhism or why even bother believing in anything and worshipping this all powerful Creator when my life is going to work out in the same way..?

12/3/2008 6:49:15 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom - Of course I would be happier if Christianity had not been forced on anyone through the bloody ages. We believe that true Christianity cannot be forced on anyone - it is a gift one may choose to accept. What has been forced on people in the name of Christianity has more to do with power and politics than the knowledge of who Jesus is. If Christianity could be forced on anyone, I think some of us would have already done the trick to you - in love, of course. And love is the reason we seek to promote Christianity. You are free to accept Buddhism or Islam, but you keep wondering about Christianity. I have a close friend who recently got into Sufism (which I think is traceable back to Mithra). She says she has found something of value to her; she tells me what she likes about it by relating it to similarities with Christianity. I wish she would want to study Christianity with the same intensity - but we lack the cool dance moves (I forgot what she calls it but, explains that enlightenment comes from being a whirling dervish through prolonged dancing). I think it's more fun and less sweaty to read the Bible. I guess I need to keep reading the Bible, because I don't see all the hell stuff you and a lot of Christians are worried about. I read that the wages of sin is death (not everlasting life in torment), but the gift of God is everlasting life and Jesus came to save the world and doesn't want anyone to perish. I think He is particularly concerned about your everlasting bliss and wonder if that is why you can't completely walk away form Christianity. So what are you doing to look for those new answers you've mentioned?

12/3/2008 7:26:36 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Well sure Christianity has probably one of the most violent histories of all religions or even institutions, but my point wasn't that things like the Crusades or Witch trials were wrong but that without such things like Constantine then I doubt Christianity would even have close to the same amount of believers it does today (after generations of Western imperial and colonialism of religious, economic, political and cultural customs upon smaller and more primitive societies).. Yes Sufism, I am well aware of.. Whirling Dervishes is what you are referring to. The Sufites are all still Muslim and would adhere to their sacred texts of the Qur'an, Hadith and Bible.. Please explain to me why Jesus slaughteres a couple thousands pigs in the Gospels.. Please exlpain to me why our all-benevolent God slaughters countless tribes and entire societies simply for doing sins countless people have done throughout history in far worse ways (i.e. where was Yahweh when Hitler was massacring His chosen people??).. I don't know how Christians can accept that their God would suffer & die simply to allow billions to suffer an even far worse punishment.. I look in many places for answers on reality: anthropology, philosophy, religion, history and the like. Have you read the Qur'an, the Vedas or any writings by Siddhartha Gautama or even Confucius?

12/3/2008 7:38:04 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom - I have read very little from the texts and authors you mention, and remember even less. I do fondly remember some of the wisdom I encountered within them - but do not see them as a life guiding force to peace. I agree with you that many Christians think Christ died for a few and therefore the masses are condemned to eternal torment. I don't see that (presently, at least) based on my reading, not what someone else is telling me. Therefore I cling to the image of an all-loving Jesus who brings peace to the entire world. If you want to cite some scriptures about the cruelty of Christ I will read them. As for all the Old Testament misfortunates, I trust God to care for them too. Siddhartha would agree we make too much of this physical life while what is beyond is far more important.

12/3/2008 7:58:51 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Well Ryan I don't mean to be rude but why should I listen to anything the Bible says if I haven't even read the texts or even sacred scriptures that billions of people worship and recognize as 'truth', especially when they were written prior to 30 A.D.? Well what do verses that say the road to paradise is small & few enter or that you can only get to God through Jesus? Those verses not to mention the entire book of Revelations clearly exclude any non-Christians from gaining Paradise.. Search the verses when Jesus speaks of wailing sinners suffering in the eternal lake of fire where we will cry and gnash our teeth.. read where Jesus says He came not for peace but to bring a sword to divide people apart (as history clearly shows it has).. read the verses where Jesus slaughters thousands of innocent pigs or curses a fig tree or says 'if you are not with me you are against me'.. Why did Yahweh slaughter countless souls and commit genocides of entire cities simply for small sins and then let terrible things occur like World Wars with Nazi German or Soviet Russia where billions died needlessly?? Sure the physical life is overvalued (Christians recognize this too).. so how are we supposed to come to any understanding of 'what is beyond'??

12/3/2008 8:37:07 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Good Afternoon Tom, I don't think you are rude for being skeptical of the Bible. Most of my friends are not Christians, so I'm used to that and I enjoy debate. A lot of people I know won't even consider Christianity, so I appreciate your willingness to discuss it. It is appropriate to be unconvinced by the Bible at first. However, in my opinion, you have accepted for fact some things the Bible does not substantiate. Sure, there is much room for differences in opinion. Since the topic of this discussion is Investigating Christianity it is fitting to look at varying opinions but, are you willing to openly investigate it by putting some of your negative views on hold? If you start an investigation pre-convinced you may misconstrue some facts along the way. Christians do not believe that the Hebrew books and the New Testament have survived the centuries by accident or by the dominance of national powers that had some link to Christianity. We also believe there are multiple specific examples of Jesus predicted in the Hebrew writings. Christ was given the title of Prince of Peace way before 30AD as evidenced by that rockin' tune we like to listen to at this time of year: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6) Yes, Jesus said He came to divide but, reading the context with those scriptures points to His preparation for His disciples to know there will be conflict over the concepts He is teaching - not everyone will accept the truth. One of many scriptures I find more illuminating of His title of Prince of Peace is "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29)! I tried to look up all the passages you were referencing - which was helpful to me. In so-doing, I found this scripture I had been searing for: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28) You mentioned the eternal lake of fire and eternal suffering - I read the fire is eternal; the body and soul of those who reject Jesus are destroyed (no more suffering?). The suffering is eternal for Satan and his demons - Revelations 20:10 (a good thing, no?) I agree there appears to be a lot of conflicting statements about people being condemned to death and a lot of killing ostensibly allowed. Also, there are several seemingly contradictory statements on whether Christ came to condemn or save. However, I promise that God answers all these dilemmas in open investigation of the Bible. It is fine by me if you are tuff on Christianity, but I wonder if you are this harsh on all religions. Christianity does withstand the most stringent scrutiny, as long as it is done honestly. You may have to be willing to set aside your feelings about a dead herd of pigs and a withered tree, and harder still, wait before making conclusions about all the death, but that is what investigating is about.

12/4/2008 12:27:51 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hey Ryan, I enjoy asking my questions but I can tell you already that you are far more open minded and seemingly tolerant than the large majority of Christians I seem to speak with.. You say I need to accept the Bible first but sometimes I don't even know why I should believe in a God or any kind morality when so many horrible things have occurred.. You use your own scriptures to prove your own doctrines.. How do I know the Gospels haven't been edited to prove all this during the numerous Church councils the hundreds of years after 30 A.D.? Who do you believe even wrote the Gospels??? Isaiah 9:6 simply describes the titles of a child being born.. Do you know anything about the virgin mistranslation by Matthew? Well sure Matthew 10:28 sounds better, but then go read other verses that explain how many will suffer in the Lake of fire and the Book of Revelations clearly illustrates how eternal the suffering will be: (v. 13) "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. (v. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." I am this critical on about everything in life especially the institutions that try to convince me I need them and they can provide the answers of reality I seek. But I guess that is the entire purpose of life, so.

12/4/2008 12:57:01 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

If it is a religion that one is looking for, then Jesus does not need to be one's savior. If it is a teaching, guide, theory, or a kinship to share a common belief about God(s), then again, Jesus does not need to be one's choice for the beginning. Many seem to have a different beginnings, a different reason for a self to begin seeking for the existence of God. One's self beginning, therefore, the reason, is of "My" reason, and "My" beginning. Here... if I am to say that this beginning is not common, nor many, I wonder if my words will have any merits to you... If it does not, then you don't need to read any further of my words. If one's search for the God's being is truthly of "My" beginning, then the meaning of "Choice" will change. For, if I am searching for God, then "Choice" is not my help, but a barrier... for I am seeking for the God, not a godly beings that can be "My God". What seem to have begun from myself, is no more of "My", because I have forfeited what I can call truly "My", that is, my choice. And here... If I am to say that this is not common, nor many, the decision to accept my words are still your choice. And, here is where Jesus is. And, if I may, I will confess with caution, that "The Savior for everyone" which the world is seeking is not Jesus. Not in a matter of judging right or wrong, but in a straight forward, honest confession. Jesus is the Savior here. And, those who are here will meet Jesus. And, those who have met Jesus, all proclaim the one thing as of one person, that is... Jesus is the Savior. The confession of the word "Savior" does not just mean a guide, or a teacher. Savior to a living being means the being that saves a life. And, if one's seeking for God is for the savior of one's life, then Jesus will be here.

12/8/2008 1:36:44 AM by Sungdo, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/7/2008

Tom - it's been a few days since we were conversing, but I wanted to get back to a few interesting points you made - you cover so much territory, it's hard to respond to each item. I wanted to clarify one point though; I don't think you should accept the Bible without thoroughly investigating it. I think we both agreed that to do so would not really be faith at all. I cited some Bible verses only because you seem to be aware of a lot of scriptures. However, we do disagree on the meaning of several passages. You also had mentioned that other religions seemed more peaceful than Christianity; which is something I can view in another light as well. A few years back, I enjoyed some time in an Asian country. I would often awaken at dawn and walk through picturesque streets in one of the world's largest cities. Buddhist monks dressed in saffron robes were usually the only others on the streets. They were collecting the food people had left for their daily sustenance. I marveled at how the system worked; most young men in this country would spend at least a year as monks and the devout populace ensured their needs were met each day. This was a truly peaceful scene to start the days however, the nights all closed with a panorama on the far opposite end of the spectrum. I also remember traveling down a fascinating river, with many warnings that I would get very sick if I fell into the water. A while ago, I read a great little book by Ravi Zacharias titled The Lotus and the Cross. The author puts Gautama Buddha in a boat with Jesus and a young prostitute who is dying of AIDS. Gautama and Jesus discuss Buddhism and Christianity together as they answer the woman's questions about the meaning of life, suffering, death and what happens after death. Occasionally, the boat driver adds a few quips to round out an absorbing conversation between the four in the boat as they traveled down the same river I remember fondly. Although the author is an esteemed Christian writer, I think he very knowledgeably and respectfully lays out the Buddhist case while comparing and contrasting it with Christianity. I think the book is careful not to put down another religion, but does provide a compelling overview of Christian perspective to those who have not accepted Christianity. All is done within a charming conversation which takes about a half hour to read. I think it is a fun an illuminating read for the critical crowd like you and me. Zacharias is originally from India and I believe he was a Hindu. He has insightfully lived amongst and studied multiple religions. If you'd be interested in reading another angle of this discussion we've been having, I can make sure a copy of The Lotus and the Cross lands in your mailbox as a Christmas gift.

12/8/2008 3:56:57 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Yeah sure that I would be interested in reading that book, sounds interesting, although the author would have to be writing the words of God in a sense if Jesus has dialouge? I'm surprised he would not have put a Hindu god into it too, Vishnu maybe? Muhammad & Confucius maybe.. But you do realize how much more non-violent the Buddha was than Jesus, killing the pigs, yelling threats & condemning people, going on a tantrum in the Temple, cursing the fig tree, calling a Syro-Phoenician woman a dog compared to the children of Israel, etc., etc.... Jesus does promote many good and holy ideals that I completely accept and try to live as such, but I think Buddhism and the Buddha in general were far more passive in such a pious lifestyle.. Speaking of AIDS, how do you explain such a terrible disease that has killed billions and will continue to do so because we do not have knowledge of a cure.. Why do God not send us a cure for such terrible disease or illnesses?

12/8/2008 9:04:51 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

It is very true that Jesus was more violent and aggressive than Buddha. If you just look on the surface, then all you will see Jesus killing pigs, going on a rampage in the temple, or killing fig tree. However, there is much more to it than just that: The story of Jesus driving out demons from two men (Mt 8:28-34; Mk 5:1-20) is to show his power over demons. The demons begged him to give them permission to go into the herd of pigs. Even so...isn't saving posessed people more important than a herd of animals? And cursing the fig tree was to make a point to his disciples...I'd hardly call killing a fig tree violent. For Jesus flipping out in the Temple: This is an example of righteous anger. These merchants were capitalizing on people just wanting to make sacrifices and offerings in the temple. By this example, we are shown that it is entirely right for us to get angry when people desecrate our God. What they were doing was very disrespectful and even more so to Jesus because he is God's Son. Would you say Jesus was wrong in driving them out of the Temple? The problem of suffering coexisting with a loving God has been debated many times over and there is no easy answer. However, I'll venture to say that the existence of evil, pain, and suffering in our world is ultimately our fault. The fall of man (when sin entered the world) is why we don't live in a perfect world now. But really, is having a perfect world a requirement for you to believe in a loving God? Tombombadil...the same one from the JRR Tolkien books huh...:)

12/9/2008 1:36:14 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Hi Tom - I'm glad you're open to taking a look at The Lotus and the Cross; I appreciate your willingness to consider divergent views. If you are comfortable with sending me your address in an e-mail (next time you see my name in the Members Recently On-Line section of the Home page) I'll have one of the on-line merchandisers send you a copy. You had wondered why Zacharias did not include other gods in his conversation with Buddha. Well, actually he also wrote a book called New Birth or Re-birth?: Jesus Talks to Krishna and another titled Jesus Among Other Gods. I haven't read the other two, but if you like The Lotus and the Cross, perhaps you'll read the others and give me the scoop. The Lotus and the Cross came to mind because it addresses several of the ideas you were raising in your posts. I think the book may answer a few of the issues you've brought up, like why suffering (AIDS) and how Jesus responds to a disadvantaged woman. It also shows how Buddhism deals with these concerns. I think there is much more love in the sayings and actions of Jesus than you've actually met thus far. In the example you referenced about the woman you feel Jesus called a dog, I see it as He was re-educating the religious people of His day that those they looked down on, and called dogs, are those He valued due to their faith. This account in Matthew 15 ends with Jesus healing the woman's daughter - which was an act of love. Although I heartily recommend this book, I feel tentative about comparing religions. In my last post I was vague and tried to duck around my feelings of what bothered me while visiting this Asian nation because I truly enjoyed the people and most of their culture. I made a veiled reference to not all being harmonious in a society that embraces a religion you find to be a better depiction of peace. You may be the first to point out that some Christians have acted reprehensively. I would be the second to affirm that. The same poor examples would naturally exist within every group espousing any religion. That aside, I think much harm can come from a creed that doesn't forbid or annunciate taboos regarding some very violent practices. That which attempts to promote peace may showcase some shining examples but is also likely to miss the mark if it fails to address some key areas. I can respect much about different religions but in my investigation, Christianity is pointing the way to peace like no other.

12/9/2008 7:02:59 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

XFrogger - I agree with everything you wrote - especially your point about there being much more to some of the accounts to which Tom objects. However, another take on Jesus flipping out in the temple could include He was angry about the self-righteousness and the false righteousness of the religious leaders of that day - those who should have known better. In Luke 23:34 He responded very differently to the people who killed Him when He said, "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." I get your point about being angry when people insult God and in no way do I think it wrong to express anger. I also think it can be a natural macho instinct (and fun too) to emulate Jesus with a cracking whip and tables flying everywhere. But, it takes a lot of discipline to go the compassionate route with those who don't understand, like Jesus did when He was crucified. If you've read the two Devotionals on this site tiled Human God and Almighty God, I'd be interested in your opinion of them.

12/9/2008 7:08:12 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hey Tom! I almost forgot; I was happy to read your words: Jesus does promote many good and holy ideals that I completely accept and try to live as such... Would I be pushing the line if I asked if you have, or would, pray to Jesus to ask Him to help you better live those ideals?

12/9/2008 7:51:13 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

XFrogger, Jesus does have power over the demons to command anything of them or to even send them straight to the abyss.. But He instead chooses to grant their wish by sending them into the herds of pigs which naturally/predictably become hellbent wild and drown themselves almost instantly.. Why would Jesus do that when He knew it would occur like that and why would a Jewish community even have some many unclean animals? The cursing of the fig tree at least has more reasoning to it as Jesus is clearly giving a lesson that although trees or humans can appear to be blossoming/good people they can be deceptive and not have any true fruit/love when Jesus/God asks it of us... Jesus would know the fruit tree was out of season and would not blossom but was showing that like that cursed tree we have to always have the authentic fruits of goodness with us (''Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'') As for Jesus in the temple, I am merely stating that although it can be deemed somewhat 'righteous', the Buddha would still not resort to violent emotions but would simply begin preaching of the true path.. Jesus could have performed a great miracle again to show everyone they were mistaken instead of simply seeing what they probably considered a crazed man claiming to be God causing mayhem in the Temple.. You speak of suffering as our fault.. But our all knowing God would know full well He would create His children on a planet where terrible diseases and natural disasters, wars, genocides and hateful violence would occur.. He needed to drown His own creation already by the first book of the Bible! How is it the fault of African children who suffer in poverty because their parents die to a terrible disease, who eventually fall prey to it themselves along with poor malnutrition? I don't mean to criticize you, but should you not give all your possessions (as Jesus calls us many times to do so) to the poor if you are to be a truly authentic child of God and follower of Christ? Sin entered the world through Adam & Eve. Why did God blame the rest of generations on the single mistake of one person? You believe they existed and that humanity all came from 2 single people (i.e. were all somewhat incest?)? I don't need a perfect world, I just come to question where my God is when horrible world wars occur where entire cities and cultures are completely wiped out.. where was God when His own chosen people were murdered in the millions? Why did God not send Hitler the 10 plagues? Where is God when genocides occur like in Darfur or Bosnia? Yes you are the first to pick up on the name.. I find all types of theologies pretty interesting, especially LOR which is so similar to Christian stories.

12/10/2008 8:32:40 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Ryan.. I wonder if there are any books with all major prophets and God's have a lengthly discussion of their answers & teachings, even with some scientists maybe arguing for a secular atheistic view.. The authors would need to be schooled extensively in all of the world religions for it to be of good value. Yes Jesus does end up healing the woman in the story because she has faith which is good.. but my point was that Jesus would in the first place call someone in need asking for help from our Lord God to be at first turned away. You can like anyone else come up with your own interpretation, but even if it is trying to show we can sometimes be rebuked by God I still think Jesus could have ignored the woman simply at first and still have gotten the point across (something again I don't think the Buddha would have done).. Why are you tentative about comparing religions? You should know full well why you are not a Muslim, Jew, atheist or anything but a Christian. Speaking of Asian practices, where was their Messiah? Why did God send Christ only 2000 years ago (since the dawn of human civilization almost 25,000 BC) and to a remote place of Jerusalem.. why not Beijing or to Africa or to North America? Sure Christianity can promote peace, but you realize its history is plagued with war and murders of heretics, while the OT is full of the wars and tragedies of the Israelites in Mesopotamia, while Jesus himself and his disciples were brutally executed by the state.. All in all it seems to entail much violence and bloodshed (Christians have to digest their God's body & blood every week !) Show me anything like that which Buddhism has done.. Sure I could always use extra prayers.. Although I think many people could live to such ideals through other religions or even without a religion.. You of course would still live to your same morals even without a God watching you, right? Why are so many of Jesus' ideals so different and backwards from many of the prophets of the OT and what of the billions of souls who lived long before 30 A.D.?

12/10/2008 8:48:24 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

I've been following this stream for a while and I have a question for Tom. Why is it that in one post you're painting this picture of starving children in Africa and questioning why God allowed it, then later you're extolling the virtues of an overweight Budha? How many Buddhist missionaries are feeding these starving children? How many Buddhist organizations are setting up hospitals/medical facilities for them? Please enlighten me as to what all these other wonderful religions are doing to contribute to the edification of the poor and sick? Is it that you are angry with God because He is not running His world as you think He should?

12/10/2008 9:14:12 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

What do you mean overweight Buddha? He taught of completely selling all your possessions and relying on begging.. At least Jesus taught this too you must sell all your possessions before you become His disciple. But no Christians actually literally listen to it because it is not practical and is a complete life decisions. Only Christians monks are that authentic and the majority of true Buddhists are more legitimate in the Asian continent as compared to North American and European Christians. The Buddha was not fat, you are mistaken.. Similar to Jesus always appearing handsome and rugged while on the cross.. Isaiah predicts him to be unappealing and unattractive. There are numerous Buddhist charities but of course Christianity is bigger because its adherent numbers. Do you know how wealthy the Vatican is in property? They have to give away money of course. I am not angry at God, I am just asking how Christians respond to such terrible crises like the generations of genocides and famines that have wiped out entire generations.. A Buddhist could maybe believe in a watchmaker theory, but Christians would need to believe their Yahweh had punished the Pharaoh for enslaving His chosen people, and yet His people are murdered in over 6 million in 5 years and there is no punishment? Why didn't God send Hitler some terrible plague? The Buddha taught the world and life in general is suffering and we can overcome it and Jesus taught to burden the suffering for the good of our souls..

12/11/2008 1:37:17 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Jesus did not teach selling all your possessions to be His disciple. You are mistaken. He told the rich young man to sell all his possessions to prove a point. Let's start from the beginning: The rich young man approached Jesus and asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus said, "You know the commandments." The rich young man said, "I have obeyed all these since I was a child." The reason Jesus came to bear the cross was that nobody could keep all the commandments. So, right there, the young man had lied. THEN, Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. The young man went away sad because he had many possessions, thereby proving again that he did not keep the commandments. The first commandment is Thou shall have no other god before me. His possessions meant too much to him. God is not against riches. He does not want us to make riches our god. Have you considered Solomon, the richest man in the Bible? Also, Pharaoh was not punished for enslaving God's choosen people. He was punished for defying God. I apologize if I offended you, but every picture or statue I have seen of Buddha, has him as an overweight man. He is not potrayed as one who has sacrificed a meal to another. Yes, I am aware of the wealth of the Vatican. I have often thought they could feed the entire African continent. Yet, the clergy are required to take a vow of poverty. That's weird to me.

12/11/2008 10:03:55 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan, Thanks for pointing out those articles. It's really weird how the idea of the Trinity is being hammered home to me this week. My pastor talked about it in depth this past sunday, again at the midweek bible study, and again when you led me to those two articles. IMO, the trinity, shown/manifested in the Bible but never actually mentioned is our attempt to relate to and understand God the best way we can. Jesus, God's Son is fully human: he got angry, cried, felt anxiety, felt happiness, was hungry, needed to sleep, had to wake up in the morning to go to work/ministry, etc. He experienced everything that we have, except sin! But, as arsin so eloquently put it, we still must be aware of God's power and sovereignty; he is our friend, but is also our Lord. But He didn't just leave us when Jesus ascended. He left his Spirit to guide us and live in us right here and right now. It's an unbelieveably awesome thought: The same being (Jesus) that was humble enough to wash his disciples' feet is the same being (God) that had the power to create the world is also the same being (Spirit) that lives in us. Not three distinct beings, but one multi-faceted and infinite God with us finite beings trying to wrap our minds around. Absolutely Epic.

12/11/2008 12:17:09 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Tom, Let me say I'm a huuuggeee fan of the LOTR series too...books and movies. Hands down the most epic movie trilogy since the original star wars...but i digress :). More on topic: I agree with you. It is somewhat disturbing to me that there is so much suffering in this world. However, in an attempt to complete my idea: Pain and suffering in the world is the result of original sin. Jesus recognized and felt empathy for people's suffering and told us to take care of the poor and sick. It is our fault that suffering exists and it is our (not your) duty to help our fellow man. When we are troubled by the suffering in this world, it is important to ask what we (you and me...and everyone reading this) is doing to fix this problem. I will be the first to admit (rather hypocritcally) that I don't do anything to help the needy in other countries. However, this dialogue has been rather eye-opening to me. Even with all the current financial turmoil, I will look into doing my part for those in need. More to come on this later :). Mrs. Piggy: Poking a little fun...what if Jesus was fat? Seriously...who cares what someone looks like? I don't want to pick a fight, but I don't think you should dismiss a religious leader because of his appearance.

12/11/2008 12:51:14 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Jesus actually does say to sell all your possessions, but of course there are numerous accounts in the Gospels when Jesus gives different instructions to different people on how to attain Heaven (best seen in the Sermon on the Mount): "Luke 14:33: Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." "Matt 19: I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." "Acts 2:44-45: All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need." Yes the Pharaoh was punished by Yahweh, but his own heart was hardened by God so as to greaten the glory of His power in the plagues.. God punishes the king of Egypt through ravaging the Egyptian land and civilian populations, even finishing with murdering the sons of Egypt instead of the Pharaoh himself. I don't know where you got the image of Siddhartha Gautama being overweight, that goes against much of his teachings.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Buddha

12/11/2008 1:15:04 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

XFrogger, I would not have a problem with Jesus being fat. I'm fat. And my husband looks like the images I've seen of Buddha. Bald head, big, round belly. I love him more than any human alive. Tom, Please give me the scriptures that Jesus tells us to sell all our posessions. After Jesus ascended to heaven, Peter went fishing on his boat. I guess he bought it back, huh?

12/11/2008 3:40:03 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

XFrogger, Please forgive me. I did not mean to offend you.

12/14/2008 4:50:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

JESUS IS THE TRUTH AND I THINK THERE ARE WAys TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH.ME PERSONALLY I NEVER HEARD OF THESE PEOPLE TO EVEN PUT MY FATHER IN THE SAME SENTENCE YOU KNOW ? but you have that freedom to voice your opinion.jesus also said the devil is a lie.stand on what you believe and when the hour comes we shall see who's the captain of this ship god bless you but devils a lie

12/17/2008 12:48:37 PM by jodieblunt, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/2/2008

Hey Tom - I wanted to get back to an issue you raised last week. You always bring up several thought-provoking points, but this one hit me as being part of my rationale for accepting Christianity. On 12/10/08 at 8:48 p.m., you wrote: You of course would still live to your same morals even without a God watching you, right? My answer is no. Morality is very much why I need Jesus and highlights what other gods fail to offer. I think most people think they are basically good people (even those with poor self-esteem). Before I knew much about Jesus, I thought of myself as a moral person. I even gave credit to God for instilling moral underpinnings to my life. I was hip with caring for the environment, sharing my toys with others and seeking peace with all. However, through the troubles of life (and by other means) I eventually learned that my sense of goodness was not very good. It did not protect me through karma and did not clear the weeds to unveil the entrance to the Middle Path. A morality case in point which comes to mind is my having an understanding of the destructiveness of divorce. I had heard the expression God hates divorce and I could see why He would through many vivid examples. So in my morality, prudence meant living with someone for a while before deciding on whether to make a relationship permanent, to shield both parties from the awfulness of divorce. That didn't work. However cool it is to attempt the suppression of desire, greed and anger - goodness was not in me. I can't respect, much less be one with, a Universe that thinks all the answers are within me if I just think (or is that don't think?). And Nirvana just smells like teen spirit. Then comes Jesus. He says I am suffering because of sin. He goes on to define sin like no one else; which really helps when you want out of the suffering. Then Jesus offers to pay the penalty for my past and future sins instead of me paying - a ridiculous bargain, even though I'm not thrifty, just tired of paying. Then He sweetens the deal by saying He'll even help me detect and avoid sin before it hurts me or I harm others. Viola! Some real morality shows up in my life - accompanied by some peace and joy. I see that other religions have wisdom related to peace but I don't detect a clear path to peace which I can hop onto. No other gods are offering to redeem and guide me - so no need to worship them. In my investigation of Christianity, the need for morality and the realization I can't achieve it on my own is part of the reason I've chosen to be a Christian.

12/17/2008 5:37:57 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

Hi Jodieblunt - excellent point! Satan is so adept at lying he created some counterfeits that look very appealing. My lack of awareness of how his lies are everywhere has been a huge problem for me. I heard Satan is the Father of Lies hundreds of times before it meant anything to me. Do you think we first have to know the truth about Jesus before we can recognize the truth about Satan?

12/17/2008 5:46:04 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

None of my words: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." "You must be the change you want to see in the world." Matthew 25: 34-40 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' James 2:14-18 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. www.feedthechildren.org/ www.worldvision.org/

12/18/2008 5:05:50 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

Jodieblunt, whom do you mean you have never heard of? Ryan, I have studied this issue much in philosophy, and I can tell you we don't need a God for morality. Saying we do is implying we only do good acts in life simply because Jesus told us or just because God is watching/grading our actions. What do other gods fail to offer? And as I understand it, God finds sin not in the act of divorce (especially when it is necessary like in cases of abuse or unfaithfulness), but rather REmarrying after divorce. Note Paul explains the widows and divorced to remain single if they cannot repair their previous relationship. When you speak of the Universe & Nirvana you are referring to other faiths like of Buddhism? I suggest you do more research into what it is all about because many things can seem pretty silly if you don't take the time to view it with an unbiased view (i.e. Christianity is not simply about groups of cannibals who eat the remains of their dead God every week).. Haha, and people have long been explaining the causes of suffering (like from sin) way before 30 AD, I am afraid to say. Have you read any works by the Buddha whom explains why we suffer (Eightfold path)? As for your points on Jesus coming to suffer for our sins, I will humor you and play the role of a Muslim or Jew or atheist who would simply ask: why would God make us knowing we would sin & become as we are, He is all powerful so He could just simply state 'you are forgiven' instead of making up this complicated story of virgins, betrayal and cheating death.. You think you couldn't be a moral person unless you had Jesus to tell you to be so? //No other gods are offering to redeem and guide me// Lol, I think every religion offers some way to redeem ourselves or else why would anyone follow it? I suggest some more religious studies: http://www.religionfacts.com/ http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/world.htm

12/18/2008 5:24:00 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom, Do you have those scriptures concerning selling all my possessions? So tell me. O Wise One, what religion eats the flesh of their LIVING GOD?

12/18/2008 7:09:36 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrspiggy.. I don't understand your point regarding material possessions & giving your life for Christ. Are you trying to convince me I can hoarde treasures and still be a good Christian? Clearly not. Well of course Christianity eats the flesh of Christ each week, but then again so did Mithraism & numerous other mystery cults in Mesopotamia 2000 years ago.. Again, whats your point? And I have already listed the verses, but will again: "Luke 14:33: Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." "Matt 19: I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." "Acts 2:44-45: All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."

12/19/2008 6:10:06 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

We've been doing very, very well up to this point, but I sense things slipping away. Let's continue to keep the discussion very warm, civil and respectful. Thanks, everyone.

12/19/2008 6:30:09 PM by Michael Lane, Executive Director, Delve Christian Ministries

Tom, I am surprised that you don't understand what Christ meant by the scriptures you have quoted. Did you ever read of Abraham? He is known as the Father of faith. He was very rich. Do you think he is in heaven or not? As for eating "flesh" every week, you're right. I eat chicken every week and give God thanks for it. I had a cheeseburger on Monday, too. You're hilarious!! BTW, I was only joking before, I'm really 5'5" 132 pounds, 26 inch waist. I'm flat out gorgeous. And I'm a stone cold Believer.

12/20/2008 8:24:04 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Well please Mrspiggy give me your interpretations.. Apparently Jesus wasn't speaking seriously when He gave us lessons about forsaking everything for Him, and even giving generously to those in need? Should we not model our lives to the disciples, missionaries, saints and Christ himself who were all humble and pious human beings? "Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry." "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Well sure Abraham was wealthy (you do know Solomon was richer?), as was Joseph, David, King Jehoshaphat and many others in the OT, but they were made rich by God who was glorified through these specific people (just as God can be glorified when someone gives millions to charities, but obviously won't be when another keeps the wealth for themselves).. And you also do realize these people were God's very own chosen people given land (and thus the riches it held) and responsibilities, including often waging massive military campaigns and performing great miracles that Christians today glorify as the words of God.. So I wouldn't try to compare modern humans like you & I to the founders of the faith Speaking of Abraham, reread Luke 16 and see which man (Lazarus or the rich fellow) waits in comfort in Hades with him? What is the first reference of earthly riches in the NT? It is when Christ spoke of the seed of God's Word falling among thorns and the deceitfulness of riches choking the word (Mt 13).. Now go further to Mark 10, Jesus explains how hard it will be for rich men to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then in Luke 16 Jesus explains to us we cannot serve money and God, we must make a choice. Go to 1st Timothy 6: Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Then read in James 5: Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Plain and simple, we are not Abraham and we are not living before the Law.. Of course God will not instantly condemn every soul for having wealth, but should they not suffer if such material ambitions corrupted their life (as it so easily does) to greed and selfishness, meanwhile the riches they kept to themselves brought greater suffering to those truly in need? Honestly, what would Jesus do.. As for the flesh comments (I don't really understand what you are trying to communicate to me), you eat slaughtered animals, whats your point? Are you trying to compare eating the flesh of a human God to livestock specifically bred & raised & murdered to be eaten by consumers like you? And why do I care how you look, especially when you seem to be trying to brag about your body (although it doesn't reflect your name).. Am I supposed to be impressed or congratulate you? Isaiah predicted the Messiah to be unattractive and quite unappealling especially after His torture during the passion of the cross. Pride is deadly sin Mrspiggy.. "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight."

12/20/2008 11:17:49 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Hi Tom, I think I can discuss Investigating Christianity because I'm trying to do that daily. However, you convinced me to be more cautious when mentioning other religions about which I know very little. I have tons of experience being wrong about many things including the beliefs of others. I completely get and agree with the following point you made: I suggest you do more research into what it is all about because many things can seem pretty silly if you don't take the time to view it with an unbiased view (i.e. Christianity is not simply about groups of cannibals who eat the remains of their dead God every week). As you pointed out, Christianity can be easily explained in terms which makes Christians feel uncomfortably misunderstood by those who make conclusions while examining facts but lack context. Just as I don't want Christianity to be maligned, I will try to be respectful of other faiths (our Golden Rule and point 3 of the Eight-fold path). I have a picture of me hanging with a bunch of Buddhist monks and the Emerald Buddha. This photo reminds me that I have had remarkable access to sharp Buddhist minds and holy places yet, I remain with little knowledge of this religion. I have read about the Four Noble Truths and The Eight-fold Path a few times. I don't find anything in them to be personally objectionable or unhelpful. On one hand I feel embarrassed to know so little about other religions. But, I'm still confused on many points of Christianity too. I have had a huge battle with understanding and accepting Christianity - but I've felt compelled to investigate it. I don't think that has much to do with my cultural heritage, because I feel at home within other cultures and many, if not most, of the people I know well, were either born into, or converted to, various religions as adults - or are agnostics or atheists. I don't think I would have encountered any ostracism if I was indifferent to Christianity or followed a calling to any other religion. I can see, to some extent, your point about God and morality - but, I mostly disagree. You said: I have studied this issue much in philosophy, and I can tell you we don't need a God for morality. I know people without a God whose sense of morality I truly admire - though we could debate where their morality originated. I do think that Jesus teaches me about morality. Christians believe Jesus was doing this in the Hebrew Books which are centuries older than 30AD and also predate the Eight-fold Path by centuries. For instance, I'm not cool with murder; who would be? Murder is forbidden in number 6 of the Ten Commandments and point 4 of the Eight-fold Path. Jesus magnified moral instruction by pointing out that hatred is equivalent to murder. This was at first just a small deal to me because I didn't consider myself to be much for hatred either. However, when I engage in a personal study of the words of Jesus, I discover how I should and can do better in attaining to higher moral standards. The same printed words have more depth of meaning to me with the passing of time (akin to attaining final liberation?). On the flip side of moral weakness (sin), we have love. God is love (I John 4:8). XFrogger pointed out a few aspects of love which are essential within Christianity. Okay, I also know atheists who are beautifully compassionate and charitable individuals. You and I have questioned God's love when contemplating brutality. What we've been balking at are His manifested attributes of holiness, righteousness, and justice - they may not look to us like love, but they don't detract from God being love. Part of my former objections to Christianity were something like fear of mass hypnosis/delusion, etc. Much to my utter surprise, I actually believe I've been allowed to partake in God's divine love - God's love for people, His desires for us, the gift He offers and the comfort and assistance He extends. My words to describe divine love may be completely meaningless - but, if you've felt it, you know it! Exposure to heady concepts like moral guidance and divine love are at once thrilling and humbling and leave one desiring more. I can be embarrassed over knowing little about other religions, but when faced with how I'm going to spend the majority of my time - it has to be where I can find more of that divine love - delving into Christianity. That is why we met at this website - not the others you've mentioned. I have briefly visited each of the links you provided - and did benefit from what I read. I'll save the links to reference when needed. I would like to learn more about other religions - and don't doubt I would discover many interesting concepts but, I'm sure I have a calling to only one. I've said it a few times but, I really feel my faith has been strengthened by examining other religions along with investigating Christianity.

12/20/2008 11:49:18 PM by Ryan, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/30/2007

You are quite the entertainer. Yes, I eat meat, since the poor animal is already dead, why let his/her death be in vain. Did you not read about the big cookout Noah had after the flood? God said it was okay to eat animals. (Gen. 9:3) I apologize, I forget there are those who worship cows among us. But, who eats Human flesh? Gross! Is it pride to say a rainbow is beautiful? Or a butterfly? Just as God, Himself, created the rainbow and butterfly, He created me. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I'm sure you have read that scripture. "For it is God Who has made us and not we, ourselves." I'm His. All that I am and all that I'll be. Jesus, the one you try to mock, is Lord of my life. I am created in God's image. I am not the one questioning His ways, you are. "Always remember it is the Lord your God who gives you the power to become rich, and He does it to fulfill the covenant He made with your ancestors." Deut. 8:18 Ah, the sermon on the mount. Let the poor say "I am rich." God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 You shouldn't care about how I look. I guess that went over your head too.

12/21/2008 12:47:02 AM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Ryan, yes I strongly encourage you to forever continue in the search for knowledge & truth, but it is a lifelong journey that none can truly complete. And I respect your ability to admit you aren't a scholar of other faiths, but I hope that only encourages you to further your knowledge in them to better yourself and also for future discussions. As for the philosophy of morality, although I do agree the true origin of moralily can be debated, I will provide a secular argument that would claim: Morals are simply culturally defined to the time and context, so what is normal and good to you can seem strange to another (take any anthropology studies and you will see the numerous aspects in which societies will differ from marriage to religion to language to economy to gender role, etc. etc.).. Have you read the tale by Greek scholar Herodotus which illustrates the concept of cultural relativism when he narrates how King Darius of Persia asks the Greeks to eat the remains of their recently dead ancestors (to which they are apalled as they usually burn the remains) and then asks the Callatians to burn the remains of their recently dead ancestors (to which they are too apalled as they usually eat the remains)... The moral of the story being cultural relativism is essential as although both cultures differ on their customs (of disposing of the dead) they still were aiming for the same end (bringing honor to the dead). Secular morality argues that people simply act in such a way because it is in their own best interest to do so, as in if you live a life stealing, lying and wronging people then it is more likely people will dislike/distrust you (which is bad for you) and even possibly act the same towards you (again bad for you).. You give money to charity because it makes you feel good about yourself, makes you believe you have good karma and makes you think in the future someone hopefully will do good to you too. So it is in all of our own best interests to help one another seek out the lifelong goal of bringing ourselves the greatest joy (being money and fame or having everyone else happy with us too).. Have you read Plato's 'Ring of Gyges' which aims to show how morality is only followed when necessary/required, but if someone came across an oppurtunity it would be illogical not to take it. Which Hebrew books do you mean predate the Buddha or Zoroaster? Because I can surely tell you the Old Testament often did not preach such words: "But if there is serious injury you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Note Ancient Egyptian religions: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written.. And regarding murder, I am afraid to say many cultures and societies have approved of it, like the Mongols for instance.. When viewed in context murder can be seen as justice and even necessary (war, capital punishment, avenging honor or past injustices, etc.).. As for love, I will have to quote Paul as he explains it far better than I ever could: "The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." And yes, I am not asking you to convert to other faiths, but just simply realize that the billions of people who practice them do so for a reason and can still be a virtuous human being.

12/21/2008 12:47:46 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Well Mrspiggy, you do know these animals are born and butchered simply because consumers like you continue to fund such markets (supply & demand?).. Again, you keep brining up ancient prophets as if they relate to modern times.. Noah eating clean kosher animals sacrificed to Yahweh for surviving the great flood vs. someone today going to a fast food place to eat a double Big Mac (I surely hope you can recognize the difference).. Of course Yahweh allowed for us to eat animals, but He called for respect to them too (i.e. not breeding animals specifically so they can be put in butcher shops to feed overweight Western societies). And, um, I am pretty sure Christians eat human flesh of their God.. You realize what the Eucharist symbolizes right? ''This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." Jesus says the bread is his body and commands us to continue the sacrament (he doesn't say "This represents my body"). I suggest rereading John 6 Mrspiggy, Jesus clearly explains the Eucharist IS His body & blood (even the disciples & crowds have trouble accepting it as apparently you do too): "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is MY FLESH, which I will give for the life of the world." Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us HIS FLESH to eat?" Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you EAT the FLESH of the Son of Man and DRINK his BLOOD, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Many Disciples Desert Jesus. On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. And as for beauty, it is one to call a creation of God in nature beauty but it is quite another to give out body measurements and conclude with 'I'm flat our gorgeous!' I'm sorry but its a weak attempt to use scriptures (that speak of how we are all God's children and thus equally special/beautiful) and use it to defend bragging about how skinny/'gorgeous' you are. Excuse me Mrspiggy, when did I try to mock Jesus? How am I questioning His ways? You seem to be throwing alot of wild accusations out here, especially for someone who claims to be such a close follower of Christ (I suggest less pointing fingers and more posting actually important points on here).. Yes I had already stated in my previous post to you as does Deut. that God gives us everything like our wealth, but clearly with some responsibilty attached to it. You cannot honestly use that verse to defend living a life of luxury and just simply state 'God made me rich, so I should stay rich'... And the Sermon on the Mount is clearly speaking of the richness in spirit and not in material possessions.. I suggest we quit this topic because I am only more steadfast in my belief of a modest meek & humble Christ (and followers), and I think anyone else reading this can see Jesus clearly spoke of the blessings in sharing the burden of suffering and poverty.. I will stick with my own interpretations and follow the model of how Jesus lived His own life versus say trying to follow Abraham as you seemed to have suggested.. Why are you posting almost random passages like John 4 (please clarify them)? And I don't care how you look actually, you were the one who brought up how you appeared and even gave me some measurments too. Once again, I am at a loss of why you brought it up.

12/21/2008 1:14:54 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tom, It sounds like you are seeking an answer to why we choose Christianity compared with other religions. That is definitely something worth investigating and I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about it. Here's a bit of what I find unique about Christianity 1) Our creator and all-powerful God became mortal and died as an atoning sacrifice for all mankind. 2) Our God offers a personal and loving relationship to anyone who earnestly seeks and asks. 3) Our scriptures have multiple witness accounts of the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. 4) Our God, through Jesus' sacrifice, offers freedom from sin's hold on us. 5) Finally, on a more personal note, I have seen numerous lives changed and saved through the power of Christ. On a side note, I read this today if anyone wants to comment on this. I've tried to tackle the second part but I'd like to hear what you think about the first question Tom: "If there is no God, why is there so much good? If there is a God, why is there so much evil?"

12/21/2008 2:08:49 AM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

XFrogger.. I will use non-Christian arguments regarding you points on how unique Christianity is: 1. An all powerful God beyond time & space could not die such a humiliating death especially when it could simply state 'I forgive you' (stating it HAD to make a sacrifice is saying it is not all-powerful) 2. About every system of faith offers a relationship that brings greater love & truth to those truly seeking it out 3. Your scriptures do have many accounts, but they are all coming from the same source (i.e. the Church made a decision long ago which documents it deems to be divine and which it deems to be heretical, often if it is not the case like the Gospel of Mary or Thomas).. But once again, numerous faiths have their own scriptures that attest to their own truths. 4. Again, Yahweh made man in His image and yet knew we would become doomed to sin. There is no need for a holy sacrifice as faiths like Islam would state Allah will forgive an individual if they truly seek redemption and compassion from Him. 5. And I can tell you I have seen numerous people 'saved' by a number of faiths and even by some stranger things (have you seen on television where 'holy' priests perform 'miracles' on the thousands of people who flock there, acting as if they can heal their suffering (as long as they pay enough money of course))... As for evil in the world, I will use a more Christian argument and say first that to call anything evil in the world automatically implies a God as seeing something as evil requires a moral code which we can only receive from our Creator. There is evil in the world because man is corrupt and it will pervert the word of God in terrible ways (Crusades, Salem witch trials, Spanish Inquisition, etc.) if not wholly ignore it altogether (i.e. how many people today can 'turn the other cheek' and do so without anger or grudges held?)..

12/21/2008 10:53:08 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

1) But God did. And He HAD to if he were to save any of us from sin. There would be no justice in the world if there were no consequences for our actions. Just saying 'I forgive you' was/is not an option. As an all-powerful and all-good being, it is impossible to uphold a standard of goodness while at the same time forgiving evil with no penalty. That is a contradiction/mistake that an all-powerful God could not make. 2) I think you misunderstood the question: Which religions offer a personal relationship with God. Can you chill out with Buddha? Or have a dialogue with Brahman, Shiva, Vishnu, or Shakti? 3) For more information about the apocryphal books of the Bible: http://www.bible-truth.org/Apocrypha.html The question I was asking is how many religions have multiple documented eyewitness accounts of their God walking around on earth, dieing, and then appearing after. 4) Yes, God made man in his own image. However, in order to have freewill, he needed to give us the choice to choose between good and evil. He didn't create anyone evil...they made their choice to be evil. 5) I realize most religions have changed their followers for the better. Maybe it's a moot point... But now...tell me which religion has ALL of the points I first mentioned. I can only think of one but please correct me if I'm wrong. :)

12/21/2008 2:26:44 PM by XFrogger, Member of Delve into Jesus since 12/13/2007

This thread has been quite interesting! I was thinking about it while I was in Church this morning. The Pastor was talking about other religions, and how Christ differs greatly from them. 1.) Everyone fears death. 2.) Everyone has guilt from sin. 3.) Only Christ can relieve people from these issues. I would like to add a verse here. This is what I call my life verse. It is the verse God used to open my eyes to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ. (Ignited-Faith) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

12/21/2008 4:15:12 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

XFrogger.. 1. Yes I am glad you brought up the argument of justice, as the way I see it God is completely just and yet complete love.. He has to punish sin but desires our redemption, so He provided the perfect solution through the sacrifice of Christ (this & a few ancient mystery cults in Mesopotamia are of the few to hold the idea of a sacrifice made by some kind of prophet/messiah in the name of God).. 2. I am not quite sure how you consider 'chilling' any more possible with Jesus than with Buddha or Zoroaster or Confucius (please clarify?). 3. I am curious if you have ever read any of these gospels? And as for multiple accounts that make up the Bible I can tell you disbelievers would simply claim the NT was largely shaped by the early Church to fit its own standards of doctrine and customs (i.e. males are only allowed to preach God's word in Church).. 4. And yes sure God gave us responsibility in life, but I know many who have a tough time believing an all-loving God would be so passive when terrible events occur (child abuse, rape, 9/11, genocide, world wars, etc.), especially like the Holocaust where over 6 million of His own chosen people were ruthlessly slaughtered. And sure Christianity is unique in the points you raised, but you can probably bet a Muslim, Jew, Hindu or whomever are/have probably listed points just as you have on discussions such as these that to them demonstrate why there own religion is unique and the most righteous. Christianity: 2.1 billion Islam: 1.3 billion Hinduism: 900 million Chinese traditional religion: 394 million Buddhism: 376 million African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million Sikhism: 23 million Juche: 19 million Spiritism: 15 million Judaism: 14 million Baha'i: 7 million Jainism: 4.2 million Shinto: 4 million Cao Dai: 4 million Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million Tenrikyo: 2 million Neo-Paganism: 1 million Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand Rastafarianism: 600 thousand Scientology: 500 thousand

12/21/2008 5:20:50 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Tombombadil, (and others) I just came across a little booklet called: "Skeptics Who Demanded a Verdict" By Josh McDowell. It can be read on line, and is only three pages. I was wondering if you might be interested in reading it and see what you thoughts were on it. Here is a little portion of the booklet: "This book is about three people who were skeptics. For them, intellectual belief was the great blockade. They could not easily believe that Jesus was who He said He was. But they were also honest -- honest enough to demand a verdict Jesus promised: "Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; and he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened" (Matthew 7:7). God more than fulfilled that promise to these men. For instance, once C. S. Lewis, who counted himself an atheist, committed himself to a quest for the truth, he found that God would not leave him alone. New information kept coming to Lewis's attention so relentlessly that he felt as though he were in a great chess match in which his" Adversary" kept making "moves" that finally brought him to a point of "checkmate." The process recalls what the Apostle Paul said about the Thessalonians: "From the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13). If you are equally committed to following the truth to wherever it leads, you will enjoy the story of these three men who did the same. Charles W. Colson served as special counsel to President Richard M. Nixon from 1969 to 1973. During the Watergate investigation Colson was indicted on a charge unrelated to Watergate. Oddly enough, the panic and breakdown of the Watergate cover-up provided him with compelling evidence for the validity of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the truth of Christianity . C. S. Lewis was the renowned author and professor of medieval and Renaissance literature at Magdalene College, Cambridge University, from 1954 to 1963. Following the death of his mother in his childhood, he became a committed atheist. It was not until he was "checkmated" by his "Adversary" that he became "surprised by joy," a joy he had longed for all his life. Josh McDowell was an eager university student looking for meaning in life. He was skeptical about religion. But some friends challenged him to examine the claims that Jesus Christ is God's Son, that He took on human flesh, that He lived among real men and women and died on the cross for the sins of mankind, that He was buried and arose three days later, and that He could change a person's life in the twentieth century. McDowell didn't think there were facts to support those claims. But then he started to investigate...." http://www.greatcom.org/resources/skeptics_who_demanded_a_verdict/default.htm

12/21/2008 5:54:56 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Brother Tom, Forgive me for poking fun. You are so right. It does not matter what I look like. I was not bragging, only making a contrast to what I said before about it being okay if Jesus was fat, because I am. I did take note that you didn't respond to that. My final word on the flesh eating and blood drinking. It is ALL spiritual. We are to feed our spirits on Jesus. You may be as steadfast as you please, but know that it negates the message on renewing your mind. On the practical side, how could we today eat the flesh of a body that is no more? If everybody that heard Jesus say those words had taken a bite, there wouldn't be any left for the rest of us. I'm amused. "Why would Jesus do that when He knew it would occur like that and why would a Jewish community even have some many unclean animals?" "Why do God not send us a cure for such terrible disease or illnesses?" You posted these comments. I perceived them as mocking Jesus and questioning God. I understand you are looking to be "enlightened", while I'm satisfied being "washed in the blood of Jesus". So, we cannot see eye to eye as we are not of the same mansion. Jesus told us plainly about this. He said, "In my Father's house there are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you." John 14:2 Thank you for indulging me.

12/21/2008 11:39:39 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

IgnitedFaith.. Thanks for the link, and I suggest for you or any Christians to read 'The Essence of Christianity' by Ludwig Feuerbach, a really good book that philosophically examines numerous aspects of what Christianity really is & will most likely open you to new viewpoints of the faith. Mrspiggy.. Like I wrote earlier I don't value looks or appearence very much as it seems to develop poor habits & insecurities in people, and just like the Bible I try never to judge a book by its cover. As for the eating of flesh, I think Catholics view the Eucharist to transubstantiate literally into the body & blood of Christ. Sure this can seem illogical if not strange but it seems like this was the message Jesus was trying to communicate in John 6 as why else would they write about how the crowds & even the disciples were confused about such a concept. Just curious if you are a Catholic or what? As for the practicality of how much body & blood could go around, I think all things are possible with God especially when it comes to feeding those in need.. (Lk 9, Mt 8) Overall the issue isn't really if the bread & wine change but rather how we change ourselves after accepting such an offering in the name of Christ. As for the slaughter of the herd of pigs, I think it is an honest question why God would allow the death of so many animals. But I guess you could consider those animals (unclean to Yahweh) were being kept by the Jewish community (possibly for food), which could possibly justify Jesus destroying further disrespect to God. And as for God sending us cures, I too think this is an honest question as I hear so often today of how God sent a miracle that a loved one could overcome cancer or some other illness, and yet they did it primarily through the medical technology we have today that left countless dead in the past when there was no treatment/cure. And Mrspiggy I am sure you & I both are looking for truth through self reasoning, it just that happens that I choose to try to look in numerous places for it (although I don't think it takes away from my commitment to trying to serve God).

12/22/2008 11:13:49 AM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Brother Tom, Thank you. No, I am not Catholic. I do have a question about the pigs issue, though. Why do you say. "But I guess you could consider those animals (unclean to Yahweh) were being kept by the Jewish community (possibly for food), which could possibly justify Jesus destroying further disrespect to God." Why would you think pigs are disrespect to God? He created them. According to Genesis 1:24, He thought the things He created were "good".

12/22/2008 3:32:23 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrspiggy, pigs are not a disrespect to God, it is a disrespect to eat them (or any fat or blood of animals deemed unclean) according the the OT Law: Leviticus 11: "And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you." Isaiah 65: "I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own devices; a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens and making offerings on bricks; who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat pig's flesh, and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;" Isaiah 66: Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord."

12/22/2008 5:42:41 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Brother Tom, Thank you. Please explain these scriptures to me: "Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 'I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. Then I heard a voice telling me, "Get up Peter. Kill and eat." I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth. The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' " (Acts 11:4-9

12/22/2008 6:56:29 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Mrs.Piggy, I hope you don't mind if I answer the question about Acts 11:4-9. (First I suggest reading all the way through Acts 11:1-18) The Jewish believers were very upset that Peter would go to the Gentiles and that they were believing in Christ, and that Peter also ate with them. (He totally went against Jewish Custom.) It was hard for them to understand that Jesus could be Lord of believing Jew's and also Lord of Gentile believers too. It is true though. I love the voice from heaven telling Peter, "What God has cleansed, no longer concider unholy." (He is talking about the "Gentiles!") God has allowed even Gentiles to repent and have eternal life through faith in Christ! Finally the believing Jew's understand and gave God the Glory, for granting the Gentiles repentance that leads to life!

12/22/2008 8:31:48 PM by Ignited~Faith, Member of Delve into Jesus since 2/20/2008

Mrspiggy, the dietary rules were never intended to apply to anyone other than Israel.. But the OT laws were made long before the time of Peter so it would still be blasphemy for the Jews who were keeping the swine as livestock in their communities (which is my only conclusion why Jesus would send the demons into them which instantly resulted in their craze to commit mass suicide).. But of course Jews of today would claim Jesus and His disciples are corrupting the Law (which Jesus said He would not remove even one dot of in Mt 5) by changing so much of it like now being able to eat clean food or work on the Sabbath, etc... But Jesus first declares it is within us which truly makes one unclean, which has been argued as declaring all foods clean (Mark 7:19).. God also gave the apostle Peter a vision in which He declares concerning formerly unclean animals, Do not call anything impure that God has made clean (Acts 10:15). But when Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:15). This includes the laws regarding clean and unclean foods. Romans 14:1-23 teaches us that not everyone is mature enough in their faith to accept the fact that all foods are clean. As a result, if we are with someone who would be offended by our eating unclean foodwe should give up our right to do so as to not offend the other person. We have the right to eat whatever we want, but we do not have the right to offend other people, even if they are wrong.

12/22/2008 8:48:39 PM by tombombadil4200, Member of Delve into Jesus since 6/3/2008

Thank you both. I understand and agree with your views. My questions were an attempt to find common ground with Brother Tom. It is done.

12/22/2008 9:49:26 PM by mrspiggy, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/18/2008

Tom, I would recommend that you take a look at the following site: http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html JP Holding does an excellent job of refuting the Christ-Myth thesis Also, if you can get a hold of his book "Shattering the Christ Myth" In Christ, J316

6/22/2011 2:51:42 PM by J316, Member of Delve into Jesus since 1/19/2010

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